Hyprocrisy or a Plan to Spread Dharma?

[thaimonk]

No I am not saying the DL has displayed no good qualities.

Mohani,
Please name some of Dalai Lama's good qualities in all fairness that he has displayed.  Would you?

[Big Uncle]

Hi DD
There has been much discusion about this over the years on this site. The Dalai Lama presents himself as a Liar, Hipocrite and Dictator. Anyone who says he is spreading Dharma and especialy Dorje Shugden practice is wrong. There were many more Shugden practitioner before the Dalai Lamas unholy crusade. He had almost wiped out the pure Gelugpas, he is giving empowerments to people but he has broken his lineage, I feel for the people who hold him as their Guru. This site is run by people who view him as one of their Gurus, so it seems they are trying to mash together the view that what he is doing is using skillful means to spread Dharma.
There were many sincere and mature practitioners on this forum who debated this point, but realised it was no use as the owners of this site are against it, so thet have given up and a few have left. Sad. It is spreading a wrong view that the Dalai Lamas actions with regard Dorje Shugden and his Gurus are correct. What does it say to people? That when a buddhist teacher talks about love, compassion, etc and then acts in the opposite way, this is actualy correct. So maybe I could go out to teach tonight about love and compasion then come home and beat my wife? Hey, you know it could be skilfull means, maybe everyone should act in this way!?
x

Dear Mohani,

Please refrain from using such description of the Dalai Lama. You are neither a High Lama, monk or a master to pass such a judgement as far as I can see. The way you deliver your message fosters animosity towards a figure and a monk that has much to do with the development of Buddhism worldwide. Just because you do not agree with some of the views shared within this forum doesn't mean you have to use such words to make us believe you. On the other hand, let me remind you of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:-

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. "

Big Uncle

[DSFriend]

Dear Thaimonk

We have debated this topic so much these couple of months and I am sure this topic will continue as new members join the forum. However, reading your post today has benefited me very much, namely the point you brought up about being BIASED. 

This topic has surfaced much emotion/angst from people in this forum. There are so many other positive aspects and information to learn from this website...but people actually LEFT because of some differences in opinions. Doesn't it say quite a bit about how strong our attachment is to our own views and projections?

DSFriend

[Mohani]

Dear Thaimonk.
I understand your point that some people may get upset. I am sorry for that, it is not my wish to upset people.

I am happy you agree that speaking up to stop a problem is not a true sign of anger, so please stop saying we are angry. I can say with honesty I don't hate the DL. I the DL is my kind mother, he appears as a deluded being, this helps me to develop compasion, I see these as his good qualities.
The protests gave the monks confidence and illuminated what the DL was doing so he had to back off a bit. An effect of this was the esstablishment of the Ser-pom and Shar Gaden. As you know the monks at Ganden protested in the 90's
 
Holding a pure view of someone is an inner jewel. If someone is displaying a fault that is harmful, then we should do something about it, ask them why they are doing it, try to stop them etc. We should keep our pure view in our heart and not externalize it, we should definately not use it as a means for justifying harmful actions. This is crazy and not in accordance with common apearance. How does it look to people if someone is acting in a harmful way, but people are saying 'hey, it's ok, there is a bigger picture, he is a buddha'. People will think Buddhas act in harmful ways. And that buddhists are nuts.
I feel fortunate to have been in a tradition where these sorts of problems have occured in the past, because since then there has been much clarification on this point.
Geshe Kelsang apears to blow his nose alot and can't pronounce english properly, this can be seen as faults.

x

[thaimonk]

Dear Thaimonk.
I understand your point that some people may get upset. I am sorry for that, it is not my wish to upset people.

I am happy you agree that speaking up to stop a problem is not a true sign of anger, so please stop saying we are angry. I can say with honesty I don't hate the DL. I the DL is my kind mother, he appears as a deluded being, this helps me to develop compasion, I see these as his good qualities.
The protests gave the monks confidence and illuminated what the DL was doing so he had to back off a bit. An effect of this was the esstablishment of the Ser-pom and Shar Gaden. As you know the monks at Ganden protested in the 90's
 
Holding a pure view of someone is an inner jewel. If someone is displaying a fault that is harmful, then we should do something about it, ask them why they are doing it, try to stop them etc. We should keep our pure view in our heart and not externalize it, we should definately not use it as a means for justifying harmful actions. This is crazy and not in accordance with common apearance. How does it look to people if someone is acting in a harmful way, but people are saying 'hey, it's ok, there is a bigger picture, he is a buddha'. People will think Buddhas act in harmful ways. And that buddhists are nuts.
I feel fortunate to have been in a tradition where these sorts of problems have occured in the past, because since then there has been much clarification on this point.
Geshe Kelsang apears to blow his nose alot and can't pronounce english properly, this can be seen as faults.

x

Mohani,

I appreciate what you have posted and thank you. I would like to still request you:
Please name some of Dalai Lama's good qualities in all fairness that he has displayed.  Would you please? You don't lose the argument if you do so. You in fact win because dharma is seeing both bad and good yet not giving up.

[Dharmapal]

Thai Monk, how would you propose getting the Dalai Lama to stop persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners and destroying our spiritual traditions?

Gandhi was understood to be courageous when he stood up to the South African government for discriminating against Indians.The protests he led were loud and noisy, but everyone knew that they were to be conducted with dignity and, ideally, with love.

The protests held by the Western Shugden Society are in the same vein of non-violent resistance. If you were at any of the protests, you would have seen that there was no anger amongst the protestors, and indeed a great deal of dignity, courage and good humor.

Check out the movie Gandhi. Those opening scenes very much remind me of Geshe Kelsang and other brave Tibetans who have been prepared to stick their neck out against injustice, even though it means going against the established status quo, which is never a comfortable thing to do.

At a WSS demonstration, I was standing next to a Tibetan monk who was sworn at and spat at by one of the Dalai Lama's supporters. He reacted by smiling at her, and then casually wiped the gob of spit from his robe. I asked him how he coped with this kind of treatment, much of which he has received over the years. He said it gave him a wonderful opportunity to practice patience and love. And yet he was still protesting the Dalai Lama's actions. There is no contradiction. Just ask Gandhi.

[kurava]

I think what thaimonk is saying here is to have space for what he or others say . Granted, from your perspective, H.H may not be acting in the way you wish, but there are others who see thai monk's views reasonable  which I find very middle way ( not sitting on the fence ) and a very plausible view for many who cannot think on a higher level.Stay cool man, we are same lineage and one Buddha vehicle.

[WisdomBeing]

Dharmapal

Thanks for sharing the story about the monk at the protests who got spat at. What a beautiful expression of sincere Dharma. My personal view is that I think it was good that the WSS protested against this issue. If not for WSS' protests, there wouldn't have been the news coverage on this issue. So in that sense, the protests achieved the goal of raising awareness of the Dalai Lama's ban.

Unfortunately, the mass media coverage did not seem to affect the Dalai Lama's ban, so that method didn't work. I really cannot think of anything that will get the Dalai Lama to stop the ban. We can continue the demonstrations... perhaps that will at least keep the media interest on.

I had hoped that the Delhi court would order than he rescind the ban (whether the Dalai lama would have obeyed the order is a different question) but unfortunately that didn't happen. My personal view is that until the Dalai Lama decides to lift it for whatever reason, the only time the ban will be lifted will be when the Dalai Lama passes on.

[thaimonk]

Mohani,

I appreciate what you have posted and thank you. I would like to still request you:

Please name some of Dalai Lama's good qualities in all fairness that he has displayed.  Would you please? You don't lose the argument if you do so. You in fact win because dharma is seeing both bad and good yet not giving up.

[Gabby Potter]

I wouldn't look at this issue from a negative point of view, His Holiness knows what He is doing; We are not enlightened, therefore there's no way we can judge His action or intention. I would actually take up previous Trijang Rinpoche's advise, have faith in both His Holiness and Dorje Shugden. In the meantime, I think that we should all work towards the goal of lifting the ban, we should do whatever we can to assist the cause.

[Matibhadra]

I wouldn't look at this issue from a negative point of view,

Then according to you praising criminality and violence as the deeds of a “great mahasiddha” is not negative, right?

His Holiness knows what He is doing;

This is the mark of the worst criminals; they act in cold blood and fully aware of the harm they are doing.

We are not enlightened, therefore there's no way we can judge His action or intention.

Still you can judge of your own actions and intentions when you support the evil dalie's criminal deeds.