THERE WAS A BAN ON THE SEARCH OF TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN'S REINCARNATION

[DSFriend]

I would say that the success of the ban may be that some people have actually begin to believe that TDG can never return. I am also inclined to believe that it is precisely their intention for many future generations to completely forget about TDG until the name does not even exist and no one believes that this great Dharma King is of any value to us. So, I believe if we think that way, then it is clear that whatever they have done 350 years ago, however much they have erased - have certainly done its damage that lasts to this day.

Some concludes that there are no incarnations or possibilities of the return of TDG because there hasn't been one for the last 350 years. It is illogical to me. The enlightened minds can emanate whenever, however as required. With that said, I'm keeping an open mind as to the announcement of TDG's return.

[crazycloud]

 if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.

Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.

I'm not ignoring an argument. It is my understanding of the situation. I'm not sure what you mean by developing discrimination. Please explain?

I see Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, which is why I said that TDG can reincarnate. I believe that as an emanation of Manjushri, TDG can even reincarnate as many forms, though can and would are different things. And that there is no restriction on his emanations through space and time for reasons already stated.

Hi WB

I agree that Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, becasue TDG is an emanation of Manjushris mind. like if you were to make a sock-puppet, this emanation would actually be controlled by your mind. SO if you take off the puppet and then put it back on again, the puppet has not reincarnated, it is merely another emanation.

If TDG was a worldly being of a Bodhisattva on the grounds, he could take rebirth. But if he beacme Dorje Shugden, then Dorje Shugden can emanate, but TDG is finished since his continuum has become Dorje Shugden.


I agree with you that there are no restrictions on the emanations of a Budha, it's just that if TDG has become Buddha Dorje Shugden,  there will be no more emanations of TDG because he is gone, there will be emanations of DS only.

For example, we no longer say Je Tsongkhapa's previous incarnations can emanate, becasue they are gone, having become Je Tsongkhapa.

Refer to the seed/sprout analogy posted earlier, Chandrakirti used it because it is very instructive, and will increase our discriminating wisdom if we make effort to understand it.

cheers

[WisdomBeing]

I agree that Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, becasue TDG is an emanation of Manjushris mind. like if you were to make a sock-puppet, this emanation would actually be controlled by your mind. SO if you take off the puppet and then put it back on again, the puppet has not reincarnated, it is merely another emanation.

Ok... i think it's a matter of definitions. My understanding was that an incarnation was a rebirth of a being, while an emanation is an expression whether form or formless of a being. i.e. Manjushri can emanate as a house or a rock. But Manjushri does not reincarnate as a rock.

If TDG was a worldly being of a Bodhisattva on the grounds, he could take rebirth. But if he beacme Dorje Shugden, then Dorje Shugden can emanate, but TDG is finished since his continuum has become Dorje Shugden.

If TDG is an emanation of Manjushri, and this emanation continues to become Dorje Shugden, eg

Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa ---> TDG ---> DS

and all the above are Manjushri... then isn't it possible that

Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa -->TDG --->DS
                                                                  |
                                                               New Incarnation

Manjushri is formless and limitless... so the energy which was TDG can be gathered again?

That's why there are some beings who have multiple incarnations?

I agree with you that there are no restrictions on the emanations of a Budha, it's just that if TDG has become Buddha Dorje Shugden,  there will be no more emanations of TDG because he is gone, there will be emanations of DS only.

For example, we no longer say Je Tsongkhapa's previous incarnations can emanate, becasue they are gone, having become Je Tsongkhapa.

Refer to the seed/sprout analogy posted earlier, Chandrakirti used it because it is very instructive, and will increase our discriminating wisdom if we make effort to understand it.

cheers

I contemplated the seed/sprout analogy earlier and can i ask if Chandrakirti used that analogy with reference to this topic of reincarnation of attained Beings?

I understand the analogy - but since we are not talking of ordinary seeds but enlightened Beings, could they be beyond the limits of what we understand?

[harrynephew]

I've been reading WB's comments on this matter and I think what she says holds enough weight in debate that TDG is really back in blood and flesh in order to benefit many.

Having put that theory in mind, the fact that some ignorrant minister actually wiped out TDG's name in the lineage doesn't mean TDG can be silenced so easily. TDG is the standing truth hundreds and thousands of DS practitioners are now who they are today - a better person. How can it be possible that TDG died and forsake this chance to reincarnate back to help more of us here in this suffering world?

Let's think about it objectively, in every office there's a person who's a pain in the a** and in every family there's a black sheep. Then why can't the Tib Govt be silly and anal enough to have a really annoying figure who switched history around to his/her benefit and led to this?

Well, even with that person around, it sure didn't deter our lord and Master's Bodhichitta intention to return and benefit.

what say u?

H1N!

[Big Uncle]

Well, it is clear that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is enlightened and hence he had assumed the form of Dorje Shugden who is also enlightened. Both Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden are emanations of Manjushri and Manjushri is a Buddha. Hence, Manjushri's emanations are infinite in number and he is able to simultaneously emanate as Lama Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. If Manjushri is able to do that, he is also able to emanate Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation simultaneously with Dorje Shugden.

As for Chandrakirti's analogy, I doubt it refers to enlightened beings. It sounds more like it refers to unenlightened beings like us because we are bound by karma and our ordinary view of reality. While Buddhas like Manjushri, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden are only bound by Bodhichitta and are free to emanate and incarnate at will because they had already realised emptiness. To say that he can't emanate again limits the power of a Buddha and so Manjushri wasn't able to emanate as Lama Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen simultaneously.

Therefore, the possibility of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is very high and I hope to meet and receive his blessings and teachings one day.

Big Uncle.

[honeydakini]

Manjushri's emanations are infinite in number and he is able to simultaneously emanate as Lama Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. If Manjushri is able to do that, he is also able to emanate Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation simultaneously with Dorje Shugden.

This is very clear. Thank you.

From what I understand, it's not that a being can only arose/incarnated directly as one other being. I.e. TDG doesn't just incarnate/arise as Dorje Shugden alone. As enlightened beings, each incarnation/emanation can further emanate into multiple beings. So, as WB and big uncle have already explained, it is entirely possible that TDG simultaneously arose as Dorje Shugden and incarnated as another (or several other) being (s)... which has continued to incarnated until today. 

[Helena]

Thank you all for sharing so much info.

It'd be good if CC can confirm the reference to Chandrakirti as well. We would also be able to learn something more to what we have been discussing.

In any case, I await to see the actual TDG in this lifetime and see what he will do.

As long as there are more ammunition to help us and our cause, it's all good to me.

The faster this shadow play comes down and the whole controversy is over, the better it is for everyone!

[crazycloud]

I agree that Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, becasue TDG is an emanation of Manjushris mind. like if you were to make a sock-puppet, this emanation would actually be controlled by your mind. SO if you take off the puppet and then put it back on again, the puppet has not reincarnated, it is merely another emanation.

Ok... i think it's a matter of definitions. My understanding was that an incarnation was a rebirth of a being, while an emanation is an expression whether form or formless of a being. i.e. Manjushri can emanate as a house or a rock. But Manjushri does not reincarnate as a rock.

If TDG was a worldly being of a Bodhisattva on the grounds, he could take rebirth. But if he beacme Dorje Shugden, then Dorje Shugden can emanate, but TDG is finished since his continuum has become Dorje Shugden.

If TDG is an emanation of Manjushri, and this emanation continues to become Dorje Shugden, eg

Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa ---> TDG ---> DS

and all the above are Manjushri... then isn't it possible that

Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa -->TDG --->DS
                                                                  |
                                                               New Incarnation

Manjushri is formless and limitless... so the energy which was TDG can be gathered again?

That's why there are some beings who have multiple incarnations?

I agree with you that there are no restrictions on the emanations of a Budha, it's just that if TDG has become Buddha Dorje Shugden,  there will be no more emanations of TDG because he is gone, there will be emanations of DS only.

For example, we no longer say Je Tsongkhapa's previous incarnations can emanate, becasue they are gone, having become Je Tsongkhapa.

Refer to the seed/sprout analogy posted earlier, Chandrakirti used it because it is very instructive, and will increase our discriminating wisdom if we make effort to understand it.

cheers

I contemplated the seed/sprout analogy earlier and can i ask if Chandrakirti used that analogy with reference to this topic of reincarnation of attained Beings?

I understand the analogy - but since we are not talking of ordinary seeds but enlightened Beings, could they be beyond the limits of what we understand?

HI WB

can i ask if Chandrakirti used that analogy with reference to this topic of reincarnation of attained Beings?

no, Chandrakirti's reasoning was presented in the context of selflessness, and properly applies to all cause and effect realtionships.

[/quote]
Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa -->TDG --->DS
                                                                  |
                                                               New Incarnation[/quote]

if you make an honest effort to understand the analogy, you will see very clearly why the above diagram makes no sense.

I understand the analogy - but since we are not talking of ordinary seeds but enlightened Beings, could they be beyond the limits of what we understand?

I can only speak for myself when I say that enlightened beings are definitely beyond the limits of what  I personally understand.

Using this as an reasoning to justify an argument is very low philosophy indeed, however, and can be seen to legitimize any fanciful conclusion conjured up in the imagination of anyone anywhere. I'm sure you see the force of my point, no?

At this point the argument is academic, and if it suits you and others here to be inspired by your take on things, far be it for me to stand in the way.

cheers

[crazycloud]

In any case, I await to see the actual TDG in this lifetime and see what he will do.

One thing he definitely CANNOT do is be a friend of the Dalai Lama.

As long as there are more ammunition to help us and our cause, it's all good to me.

here are my prayers that this ammunition does not blow up in your face

[Zhalmed Pawo]

As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?

(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)

[thaimonk]

As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?

(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)

It doesn't matter where Shakyamuni has gone. Panchen,Trijang, Zong, Dromo Geshe, Zemey, Tendar, Gonsar, Pabongka, Dagom, Draknak, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Sogpu Guru Deva tulkus are all here. All these great incarnations are here and still incarnating doing immaculate work over and over again. Perhaps Shakyamuni could have incarnated as one of them.

[thaimonk]

Insert Quote
As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?

(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)

That's what concerns me about this.  Given an inch they want a mile.  So once enough people have accepted that this is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen then they or someone else will try to usurp the Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation title, then the Buddha Shakyamuni title.  I don't see this as a good thing.

You don't need to concern yourself at all on how many miles THEY want. No one usurps. Once you have accepted or not accepted the Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen incarnation, it makes no difference to the incarnation, his students and others. If he is real, he will do works to spread the dharma of Tsongkapa and that's it. If he doesn't do great works and damages the dharma, he goes to the three lower realms. Our job is to keep open mind and don't worry about the 'mileage'. So you don't have to give a mile, JUST GIVE AN INCH.
 

[Helena]

Dear CC,

Would like to ask why you think that the reincarnation of TDG cannot be a friend of DL?

I thank you for your prayers, btw. Very kind.

In any case, I await to see the actual TDG in this lifetime and see what he will do.

One thing he definitely CANNOT do is be a friend of the Dalai Lama.

As long as there are more ammunition to help us and our cause, it's all good to me.

here are my prayers that this ammunition does not blow up in your face

[Helena]

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

I am sorry but I do not understand your statement at all. May be I am really missing something. I don't see it. I really do not see how they would want a mile out of what and how would they try to usurp Tsongkhapa reincarnation title at all, in any way?

Could you please explain in a way that allows the rest of us to understand.   

Much appreciated.

Insert Quote
As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?

(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)

That's what concerns me about this.  Given an inch they want a mile.  So once enough people have accepted that this is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen then they or someone else will try to usurp the Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation title, then the Buddha Shakyamuni title.  I don't see this as a good thing.

[kurava]

“TDG and DS are the same continuum, so TDG became DS.
There is a casue and effect realtionship there. The mind of TDG was the substantial cause of the mind of DS, and as Chandrakirti very clearly explains in Madhyamakavatara, the seed can no longer exist at the time of the sprout. So, given that Dorje Shugden exists, we must conclude it is impossible for TDG to do anything at all, as the seed has disappeared to become the sprout. If you believe DS can manifest and function, then it becomes nonsense to say that TDG is functioning.” -Crazycloud

This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation  of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
However, the bio of Je Tsongkhapa is accepted without any challenge. Based on this, I would think it’s completely possible that even if DS and TDG are of the same mental continuum , they can manifest at the same time as they have attained the ultimate nature ,therefore beyond the law of cause and effect .