What happened to Lucy James?

[shugdenprotect]

Wow, so much information and so many comments. Unfortunately, there seem to be limited Dharma learning available in many of the posts, which were more like attacks and criticism.

With this experience as a new Dharma student, reading such exchanges can create a very damaging impression of the Dharma and Dharma practitioners. As Iloveds stated, sex, politics, hypocrisy etc. can be real turn off for spiritual seekers. There is enough of this in the “real” world, no one needs to come to a spiritual/religious forum for more of it.

It is very sad to see the DL and GKG being criticized so harshly by fellow Dharma practitioner because:

1) Regardless of the mistakes they have done, he has done so much good for so many. For example, Tibetan Buddhism flourished like wild fire outside of Tibet for the first time in history under the leadership of His Holiness. GKG established 1000s of centers so that many will be touched by the Dharma. Even in the basic upbringing of a child, we teach them to have gratitude for being fed, dressed and sheltered. I trust that we should offer more to beings who showed us the way to liberation.

2) If Dharma practitioners behave no differently from the non-Dharma practitioners, then, what is the point of studying the Dharma? This point is awfully frightening because it can completely defeat the purpose of Dharma’s existence: to spread in all ten directions to benefit all sentient beings.

Looking at the bigger picture, if we can criticize and bring down one Master, we can proceed to justify the bringing down of a Dharma Centre. As these points from which Dharma can spread is brought down, the Dharma is tarnished and may not touch as many mind streams as possible.

Don’t get me wrong, we can never destroy the Buddhas, highly attained beings (like GKG and DL) or the Dharma down as they are way above that. The people we actually bring down at the end of the day, are ourselves…our minds, resulting in the reinforcement of our vicious cycle within the 6 realms of samsara.

Therefore, it is clear that, it is us who need the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Not the other way round.  Therefore, it would be more constructive to put our efforts into choosing our Guru wisely, keeping clean samaya with him/her and focus on developing Dharma understanding and practice.

If we are all sincere in our declaration that our purpose of promoting the anti/pro DL and anti/pro GKG etc. campaign is to protect the lineage of Lama Tsongkapa, we should remind ourselves that the best way to achieve this goal is to practice consistently with pure motivation.

[Helena]

I think what separates a smear campaign from a sincere discussion is the intent.

I don't believe that TM's intent is to smear or disparage. He was asking a honest question and asking if anyone had any info to add to help clarify. Then the name calling started, which I believe we all can read for ourselves. So, there is no need for me to even repeat in here.

Again, I see that we should separate ourselves by even thinking that someone has ulterior motives in this Forum with whatever they post here. Some people seem to be dead set on thinking that and so, their language does come across as such.

This is a place where by we should be able to learn from one another and have healthy discussions in order to gain more understanding. With more understanding and real knowledge, we can help clarify even more - with others beyond this Forum. So, those with real info to share, please do share. But please, refrain from name calling and unpleasantries. They are so un-necessary.

Those with nothing more to add, and no real info to share, please refrain from adding fuel to any fire, if at all. It is really not helpful at all.

And please, by all means, stop making assumptions of this or that. Seriously, everyone in here has been guilty of it one way or another. Just go read your own old posts and comments. I am not excluded either.

Now, as hard it is for some to hear about such unpleasant things about your own centers, Gurus and etc - imagine how others have felt when you did the same with HHDL or anyone else, even to each other.

Every Lama in here is someone's Guru. Each has done great things. That is why they are so famous and where they are now. Otherwise, no one would be even writing about them.

I used the analogy of the doctor to describe our Guru - because that is how I do view it, but it does not mean that I would be imposing it on everyone else and forcing them to agree with me.

For the lack of a better analogy, please bear with me here - if your Guru has saved you and helped, of course, you'd be eternally grateful and that is why you are following this Guru. This is equivalent to finding that great doctor who has saved your life.

Now, everyone here has their own doctor who saved their lives in one way or another, it is not at all pleasant to read someone else criticize the doctor who has saved your life now, is it? Hence, then stop doing it to others.

Please just address the issue at hand and help clarify without getting all emotional and adding anger or hatred into the whole discussion, because it is really obvious that the anger and hatred is really yours and yours alone.

I have really valued those who shared more knowledge and provided different points of views in here. Now, perhaps Lucy James may have written those things about her own Guru or may be she did not at all. In any case, if she still refers to GKG as her Guru to this day, then may be there is something that we really do not know and understand here.

It is also possible that Lucy may have written all those things when she was feeling unhappy but it does not seem that she cannot grow and learn from there. She may have changed and matured since then. It is also possible, no?

We all grow and change as time progresses when we learn new things and understand more. I remember that my own relationship with my Guru took a while to grow into what it is today. There were times when I had doubts and I was unhappy. But that is not my Guru's fault, but my own. I do know that now.

The Guru has been always there for us, the students and the Guru has been constant. Where as, we the students would go through ups and downs and all our own emotional roller coaster before arriving to a place of a true Guru-Disciple relationship. I am not implying that Lucy James went through the same, but I am saying that I would not be reading into everything a student writes with blind trust. I'd be examining more and staying open.

Which is why the Forum is a good place to have - we can share more, examine together and those with more info can enlighten the rest of us but please, minus all the ugly words. There is no need.

Thank you for your kind patience. Have a good evening, everyone.

[kurava]

The purpose of this forum is to try to get as much correct facts from as many resources as possible. If the collective efforts can sieve out fact from fiction or half truths, then everyone can benefit or learn from the subject matter ,whether its debate or just sharing views since the discussion will have a proper platform. That is I beleive the intention of TM..
I like what Duldzin said , that Lucy had not gone on a campaign to disparage GKG after what happened or engage in exposing NKT’s dirty linen or any form of vendetta. So the issue could really be a private matter between Guru and disciple which may seem like a negative thing for outsiders and which had been exploited by anti NKT campers. What Lucy should do ,( and which all of us as students should do, if faced with similar situation) is to come out to clarify and protect our Guru’s good name.

By not doing so, even though she has not spoken anything bad about her Guru, the controversy and speculation will create negativities and disturb the minds of others and students with respect to GKG and which will not be what any spiritual head of an organization  would like to see happen.

[pgdharma]

Dear Honeydakini
Very well written and I agree with you.

To quote you, “Sure, the Dalai Lama has been responsible for many actions that we do not agree with. But by the same token, he has also been responsible for many tens of thousands of people joining the Dharma. He is still someone’s teacher” and the same goes for GKG as quoted by you “I don’t believe the things that have been said about GKG. Whether or not they are true, I choose instead to look at all the thousands of centers he has around the world and all the thousands of people who are being connected to the lamrim, taking ordination and learning dharma, inspired by his GOOD qualities." Both of them have a large follower of students and that’s great.  However, if one is not happy of what is being said of GKG then how would his students feel if the Dalai Lama is always being criticized and attacked by others?
As a Vajrayana practitioner, it is best that we have inter-harmony and never criticize each other’s Guru.

[honeydakini]

There’s something really quite ironic about the fact that in spite of all that has arisen out of this Lucy James controversy, she still considers him her Guru – that speaks a lot in itself I think.

I have said this before and I will say it again: that if we really are concerned about the welfare of another practitioner, it would be more beneficial to give them clear guidance and advice on the aspects they should look for in a teacher, or how to best conduct themselves in a Dharma way, for the best results in their practice. This is a much more positive way and will allow people to think for themselves, clearly, to arrive at an educated and logical conclusion regarding any Guru.

I don’t agree that just pointing out a teachers’ faults (even if with good intention) is very inspiring. Nobody likes to hear that their teacher is doing something wrong. Nobody. It is very hurtful and, for someone who is less advanced in their practice, they will become even more defensive of their teacher and practice. Just look at how the Dalai Lama’s students reacted to the demonstrations. Yes, they did bring to light a lot of important issues, and monasteries like Shar Gaden and Serpom did arise from that; but by the same token, how many other people’s practice could they have damaged?

If in fact we see that a teacher IS conducting himself in a way that we perceive as bad or incorrect, then it is more helpful to advice a student by way of showing him what would be A CORRECT WAY – such as by referring to the 50 verses of guru devotion, and if the guru is acting in an incorrect manner, to then advise them on what they can do to not break samaya while preserving and continuing well with their own practice.

Simply holding smear campaigns and creating these kinds of alternate websites to bash an organisation and lama doesn’t help to clear confusion or give new practitioners an idea of what to do or where to turn to. It just makes them have more doubt, more confusion and at worst, turn them away completely from practice. It works both ways – smear campaigns against lamas like GKG, as well as against the Dalai Lama.

[Dharmapal]

It is not very clear to me from this thread what exactly Geshe Kelsang or Lucy James are being accused of doing or saying, but everyone knows that Lucy James is a loyal and devoted disciple of Geshe Kelsang and has never said anything critical of him publically (and, in all likelihood, not privately either).

The NKT World website everyone is referring to on this thread has nothing to do with her apart from the fact that they use her. Because she was asked to stop teaching around the time of the demonstrations, the anti-NKT group who run that website seized on this, and used it to spread propaganda against Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. They have no idea of anything that went on behind the scenes, of course, and the claims they make on that website on that page and in general are extraordinarily way off the mark and generally possess not a shred of truth, or at least are grossly distorted. It helps to look at the website www.newkadampatruth.org to see how this is so.

Lucy's relationship with Geshe Kelsang remains as close as ever. Being relieved of her busy teaching responsibilities after almost 30 years has given her the freedom to do long retreat, which she had wanted to do for a long time. She is reportedly very happy.

I hope this helps.

[beggar]

Well, we're always opening a can o' worms once we start talking about teachers! You just can't get away from the fact that with every teacher, there will be people who will speak nasty things against him - we're in samsara, ho ho! And this is what we will always be faced with. Even the good Sage Shakaymuni had Devadatta which only goes to show that it sure is never about the teacher and his merits but the students and their demerits.

It is always good to question and ask if we are doing it with the intention to clear our doubts and understanding but not so good if it is only to create an argument or stir up some sort of hostility. Sometimes, too, we gotta be careful because even if we do have a good intention, the words that come rolling out of our mouths may not and then we still create hostility. So this is always a good practice of awareness - how we are talking and what we are talking about. And what do we want to achieve by it?

Poor old Lucy James - whatever the true story is between her and her good Guru - became a big pawn in this campaign. This whole thread isn't about lucy anymore - it's about bickering about teachers and trying to find justifications for bickering about Gurus or the Dalai Lama. Every teacher will encounter a difficult student - imagine if we dug up all the stories of all the teacher-student conflicts, it will never end. Seek justification, sure is a good thing - but in this case, what happens if you don't get it, ever? In the case of Lucy James we may never know what happened between her and her teacher. In the case of the Dalai Lama we may never know why he said the things he said or did the things he did. So we have two choices: speculate forever or try to remain positive, beneficial and helpful. Find ways to continue to inspire others, not put them down or create more doubt in these uncertain times.

[VS]

if we really are concerned about the welfare of another practitioner, it would be more beneficial to give them clear guidance and advice on the aspects they should look for in a teacher, or how to best conduct themselves in a Dharma way, for the best results in their practice. This is a much more positive way and will allow people to think for themselves, clearly, to arrive at an educated and logical conclusion regarding any Guru.

 

I totally agree with honeydakini. To my opinion, every Guru has different methods in training a student pending on their mindset and experience. At times, we might not be in agreement, but we don't have the clairvoyance as our Guru has. It's the trust that we have in our Guru in order for us to go through any training and become a victor!

I know it's easier said than done with all the critics, accusation etc coming towards one's direction. It will take a lot of wisdom and patience for any one to overcome it.

It's also a Guru's compassion and bodhisattva's nature that a Guru 'sacrifice' their name and reputation in order to help one student.

Om mani padme hum

[triesa]

Well, I certainly don't know who Lucy James is before I read this thread. As I was reading the postings, I felt a bit disgusted in the way, no names mentioned here, that the postings did not really answer the questions posted by Thaimonk initially, but went on for a long time bashing each other.

I guess this has all arisen because obviously some of us here are students of GKG. And they have immediately put up a defensive mode and engaged in retaliation. I guess it's normal reaction since no one like to hear anyone attacking their own teachers.

So we all touched on the subject that we should not bark on the negativities we see on an outward level on any Gurus, which I totally agree. Who are we to judge on someone's Guru, when even Lucy James herself has not said anything bad about hers?

I believe at this 21st century, internet has been used to spread a lot of good and useful information as well as been abused to spread rumours. Whatever is posted on the net, how do we verify the authenticity of all those letters posted?  And why are these supposedly private letters being posted for everyone to view? If these letters are real, what is the motivation behind the one who posted these letters up?

Once again, I am in sync with a few people here that we should refrain ourselves from bashing others' Dharma centers and others' Gurus as it really reflected badly on us here at this forum, as we are all Dorje Shugden practitioners. At the end of the day, we can all investigate to find out more on whatever we would like to discuss but with the true spitituality of having harmony and respect for each others.

I guess the only way to resolve what happened to Lucy James is when she can come out and speak up again. Right now, she has not critized anything or said anything bad about her own guru GKG, so as Honey Dakini said, that speaks volume of who Lucy James is.

when NKT grows, obviously there are people out there who are anti-NKT. It is such a common phenomena that there is literally no surpise to it at all. Some like and some don't like. So be it. But being Dharma practioners and especially being DS practitioners, we MUST by all means promote harmony in one own's center and also among other Dharma centers. Afterall, if we do not, what Dharma are we talking about here?

Triesa

[Thomas David Canada]

Anyone read Chinese? Just be who you are! The same canon copier that post on the
guestbook with slimey statements

http://www.gelu.org/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=7985&page=2

[email protected] appears there too, with Google translator mentioning something about a publishing company, which I think is "Keqie La Buddhist centers" = Kechara.

The username is "sagan" and when you click on his "view website" link, there is a Tsem Tulku blog:

http://zhandugu.blog.163.com/
Who  are you??

[jessicajameson]

if we really are concerned about the welfare of another practitioner, it would be more beneficial to give them clear guidance and advice on the aspects they should look for in a teacher, or how to best conduct themselves in a Dharma way, for the best results in their practice. This is a much more positive way and will allow people to think for themselves, clearly, to arrive at an educated and logical conclusion regarding any Guru.

 

I totally agree with honeydakini. To my opinion, every Guru has different methods in training a student pending on their mindset and experience. At times, we might not be in agreement, but we don't have the clairvoyance as our Guru has. It's the trust that we have in our Guru in order for us to go through any training and become a victor!

I know it's easier said than done with all the critics, accusation etc coming towards one's direction. It will take a lot of wisdom and patience for any one to overcome it.

It's also a Guru's compassion and bodhisattva's nature that a Guru 'sacrifice' their name and reputation in order to help one student.

Om mani padme hum

I think that with Lucy being a student of GKG for 28 years, the practice that she has with her Guru is between the two of them. Just as how readers of this forum have their own relationship with their Guru, who are we to question someone else's? Some...most of us might not even have clean samaya with our own Gurus.

I strongly agree with a lot of what HoneyDakini has written on this topic, and like him/her, although I don't necessarily agree with NKT's methods of 'non-aggressive protesting' against HHDL that GKG permits (correct me if I'm wrong), "I choose instead to look at all the thousands of centres he has around the world and all the thousands of people who are being connected to the lamrim, taking ordination and learning dharma, inspired by his GOOD qualities."

Lucy has always spoken nothing but praises about GKG (as can be seen in an interview just a month before the letter leaked http://bit.ly/aNrRkr) so I don't really feel that we have the right to judge (and for some, very harshly so) whether she really has wronged NKT and her Guru, or to mock GKG for any of his actions.

With regards to what Triesa has said, we can't verify the authenticity and those private letters (according to nktworld.org) 'The Gyatso Dear Lucy email was not private. It was distributed by NKT without wish for confidentiality (actually, just the opposite according to Dekyong) and thus it and others pertaining to Lucy James distributed freely by NKT were widely available on the Internet.'.

From what I deduce, it seems to me that it's part of the practice between GKG and his student. I don't about Lucy's case, but I feel that some  students who are nurtured to become Dharma teachers and do teach for a few years, they might unintentionally, and unknowingly let their ego's grow. With so many people looking up to you and constantly thanking you for helping them, I would find it hard to be sure that my own ego might not be affected, considering that I'm a lay person coming from a layman's background and living a layman's life (in a lot of ways, just like her).

I can't imagine how I'd feel if such a controversial and damaging (to my reputation and ego) personal issue was circulated in the center that I was part of (and in Lucy's case, where she taught) and even worse, around the globe for everyone to speculate. It really must not be easy for someone who's still very attached to ourselves, our ego...our "I"'s and "me"'s.

IF she isn't guilty of anything that she has been accused and look-down for, I really do respect her for being exemplary with her Buddhist practice.

IF she isn't guilty of anything, I really do respect GKG for putting his and NKT's reputation on the line for the practice of his student.

IF she isn't guilty of anything, I really do respect all of GKG's students and NKT's followers for not holding negative views and taking flight upon hearing the news.

According to this link, she has returned back to teach.. (http://www.nktworld.org/air.html)


This is just my personal opinion, please don't take it so strongly to heart. I'm only here to learn and have been reading this forum for a few months now. I feel like a lot of very good writers with apparent in-depth Dharma knowledge have taken things personally and instead of imparting knowledge, they write nasty comments. Do share with the intention of a healthy discussion.

Thanks, JJ

[jessicajameson]

Anyone read Chinese? Just be who you are! The same canon copier that post on the
guestbook with slimey statements

http://www.gelu.org/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=7985&page=2

[email protected] appears there too, with Google translator mentioning something about a publishing company, which I think is "Keqie La Buddhist centers" = Kechara.

The username is "sagan" and when you click on his "view website" link, there is a Tsem Tulku blog:

http://zhandugu.blog.163.com/
Who  are you??

No offense, but this forum topic is about the controversy surrounding Lucy James. Please do read the posts and stick to the relevant topics. I'm trying to do that as well. It would be good to read the post that I have just written and reply. I'm always here to learn and you seem to be good at researching.

What you write are what seems to me like little gossips, I've been following this forum for a good 4-5 months now here in the States (and yes, I can read Chinese) and I really don't think that people in this forum care about these things. There are so many websites that are filled with real gossip and it really leads me nowhere with trying to expand my knowledge. I'm only thankful that this site is up, and there are people here on healthy discussions. It allows me to learn. Please just contribute accordingly.


Thanks, JJameson

[Thomas David Canada]

Another made up person protesting from the same old tired worn out site.
You people are really a piece of work
Now we have another schism as a diversion from the actual schism
Why do you not stay the same person or do you think you are Dorje Shugden?

[thaimonk]

Anyone read Chinese? Just be who you are! The same canon copier that post on the
guestbook with slimey statements

http://www.gelu.org/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=7985&page=2

[email protected] appears there too, with Google translator mentioning something about a publishing company, which I think is "Keqie La Buddhist centers" = Kechara.

The username is "sagan" and when you click on his "view website" link, there is a Tsem Tulku blog:

http://zhandugu.blog.163.com/
Who  are you??

What is the problem? That is my email. I am multi-lingual. I am a great fan of Tsem Tulku. And I linked his blog to the China world so that the Chinese world can receive his teachings !! What did you discover? What is wrong? You found another blog about His Eminence Tsem Tulku Rinpoche and it is done by me. Who knows how many other fans out there have created blogs about Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. By the way I don't think Tsem Tulku Rinpoche knows Chinese.

What does this have to do with Lucy James?

THAIMONK

[Thomas David Canada]

Nothing to do with Lucy,but everything to do with your little coup
Did you think you could just walk in here and take over the site for your lama's fame and fortune
Here in the West, little mind, We do not care to put anyone up on a throne except for Teachings.This is not Malaysia and we have no history with God Worshipping Men as Gods. So forget your fantasy and get back to reality. Your friend lonely hermit is a real piece of nonsense. Where did you get him the nursery or mental ward.
If you guys want to get serious, then shut up and leave others alone. Post what you like, but stop defending your made up kingdom. I like what you are doing, but you are not smarter than the rest of us. So stop be deceptive and sly! It makes me sick and angry to read the Lone Hermit and yours suggestions.
You stop attacking GKG and me and you'll be fine. Otherwise you leave me no choice, but to go after you and your posting.
If you do not like what I say, to f......  bad!