What happened to Lucy James?

[crazycloud]

He is still someone’s teacher – how are we potentially destroying someone’s faith by just always using very strong words against him? “Liar, hypocrite, dictator” etc

I don’t see the recent posts about GKG as a smear campaign – it is a different way to look at how we react to posts about different teachers. Why is it okay to always bang on and on about what the Dalai Lama is doing wrong; but become so edgy when some questions are asked about other teachers?

I agree, people should be able to critisize Geshe Kelsang Gyatso with a good motivation. It is ok to "bang on and on" (is this an example of the kind speech you are always urging on everyone, HD?) about what the Dalia Lama is doing wrong becase it is by bringing his criminal activities to light, we benefit the world. As you probably know, the very existence of Shar Ganden and Serpom Norling have arisen due to these protests. It is no problem calling someone a liar wiht a good motivation if a liar they are, don't you think?

I agree wiht you, though, noone should become edgy if people want to probe your Guru, what do you have to fear?

If you don’t agree with what is being said about GKG, then think: this is exactly what you have been doing to the Dalai Lama forever now!

incorrect.

Why is it fair to have a smear campaign about the Dalai Lama but get antsy when some questions are asked about GKG/NKT?

There is no smear campaign because a smear implies something incorrect is being said, whereas in fact the Dl is a liar, and of course we have  the evidence that proves it.
Once again, HD, you fall into the trap of thinking we can only say things that everyone is happy to hear.

Remember that the first Panchen Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen said

"Since we cannot see others' minds.
We should make an effort to appreciate everyone's views,
But I cannot accept those who spread wrong views
and by this lead many living beings astray."

Khedrup Je, in his polemical defense of Je Rinpoche's teaching said things like

"...he is like a child boasting about being a scholar..."
"...Over and over you take refuge in a vessel of lies...."
"...lacking shame or guilt you wear the belt of ordained discipline loosely...."
"...they are a pack of fools..."

etc etc

we can find many examples like this.

If you would like to see lies, sarcasm, and critcal speech from the DL and his camp, I have plenty of examples for you.

So clearly criticizing other lamas is deemed acceptable by the great lamas of old AND by modern lamas on both sides of this issue.

There is a danger in losing our critical faculties if we just say "Oh, I can't see any faults or say anything because someone else thinks this person is a lama."

Frankly, that's just foolish.

[iloveds]

CC its getting really tired listening to you defend your "strong" words as a behaviour thats ok, and where you come from it must be an endearing quality that makes you very popular.

But I just want to point out one thing. Forget HHDL, forget GKG, what future is there for Buddhism where there is immense critical eye syndrome. I don't care what you say, the future for buddhism is dead when anyone can say anything about Dharma Teachers. True or not keep it to yourself.

Question:
a) If you believe a person is a Buddha and make sincere offerings to that person, would you collect merit or karma?
b) Would you still collect merit or karma if other people do not think that person is a Buddha?
c) Would you collect merit or karma if you stop someone making sincere offerings because you believe the person they are making offerings to is not a Buddha?

[Lone Hermit]

But I just want to point out one thing. Forget HHDL, forget GKG, what future is there for Buddhism where there is immense critical eye syndrome. I don't care what you say, the future for buddhism is dead when anyone can say anything about Dharma Teachers. True or not keep it to yourself.

You know this a good point. What's the value in all this negative mud slinging and hostile energy? People here do bang on and on about the Dalai Lama being so bad but clearly millions of people don't agree and after a while it's so repetitive it becomes meaningless, like empty propaganda. As Buddhists we all know that things are just mere appearances and our reality is a reflection of our own minds so spewing hatred at the DL or GKG or anyone else just reveals to the world the poison in our own minds. How does Buddhism benefit from this and what sort of example does this set for others?

Instead of endlessly creating the cause for suffering why not just get on with practice? It's stupid to keep saying Shugden is banned when now we have Shar Gaden and Serpom Gompas where hundreds and hundreds of monks are free to do as they like. Or is the information on their websites not accurate?
If other Gompas don't want to practice that's also fine it's their choice too.

Please stop the hatred and stupid abusive posts these do more harm than good. People visiting this site will start to think that all DS followers are cultivating anger and hatred instead of LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR ALL LIVING BEINGS!

[Lone Hermit]

What do you think People think as you dismiss 350 years of suppression as inconsequential?
Why do you think millions of people you think have such an opinion?
Many more millions could not give a fig whether he stands on his head and walks on his hands.
We gave the money to him and we deserve the truth.
Otherwise, what do you think the Buddhas was doing?
Picking his teeth or giving the status quo what for?
A friend a foe, a foe a friend. Treat everyone with equanimity
I already did that and now it is his turn.
Going over the truth makes it well known

"If other Gompas don't want to practice that's also fine it's their choice too./tm"
Did you read that he used fear and imtimidation to force their hands to feed their faces.

What was done in thirty.
We can undue in ten.

If Shugden had not been killed by the Dalia Lama and his Ministers
He would reigned Supreme and Banned Servitude and Slavery 350 years ago.
Instead the Tibetans got a War Lord posing as a Priest.

Exactly what I'm talking about...no wonder so many people think we're a bunch of fanatics.
What's the point of posting something like this for all the world to see.
Are you trying to destroy our credibility or what?

[Lone Hermit]

"Dalai Lama being so bad but clearly millions of people don't agree "tm

How many Western Mahayanna Buddhist do you think were there in 1966?
Some to none! I know, I was there.
How many Anti War Protestors were there in 1966?
Some to none. It grew quickly once the truth was out!
I remember a Buddhist Monk in Viet Nam sitting in a fire he had set to Protest the Insansity of War, that was 1965. I was overwhelmed that someone could self ignite and never budge an inch from his Lotus while the fire consumned his body.
. What Power! What Conviction of Self
How many People even knew who Dl was before he received his Nobel Prize?
Who do you think arranged Dl's first formal visit to the West?
Gonsar Tulku and Geshe Rabten and Ganchen Rinpoches with Geshe Helmut did with open and happy hearts.
They arranged his invitations to meet heads of State. His Security,Everything.Drove his car, translated for him.
Dorje Shugden Lamas and monks acted as Plymouth rock for Mahayanna Buddhism Entering the West.
Back when you could sit with the Dalia lama all day long and maybe one security. What happened to those day thaimonk?
Alan Ginsburg was reciting poems on peyote soaking in a bubble bath blatthering about the Mystic Lamas and Beat Zen .

Millions might change their minds, if he does 'not' first recant and ask forgiveness. That we can do. That we have offered with folded hands millions of times ,all go unheeded until our knees made me get up and say.I am Mad as Hell and I am not Going to Take this Anymore! One simple little kind reply to one of his Earlier Benefactors. Just to discuss it like Brothers.
They had little resources in 1977, little recognition. Just some harmless cute little men.I donated a 115 acres in 1979 to preserve the Culture of Tibet to the Dalia Lama,actually it was 1977 in Indiana. a hubbub of Tibetan Buddhism.
With Geshe Rabten guided by Kyabje Trijang, Zong Rinpoche, Pabonkaba Rinpoche,Ling Rinpoche.
All guided and supported as well by the man who stayed behind .in Lhasa to collect art and relic spending ten years in prison to begin the Tibet House in New Delhi, Domo Geshe Rinpoche
All acting in concert as One
One could safely go to anyone.
All Devoted to Shri Dorje Shugden and the Preservation of the Teachings of Je T'Song Khapa transmittted as Purely as the day Lord  Buddha first spoke them.
 

As Gelugpas we pride ourselves on logic and reasoned argument not meaningless babble. Posts like this make us look ridiculous.

[thaimonk]

As Gelugpas we pride ourselves on logic and reasoned argument not meaningless babble. Posts like this make us look ridiculous.

Post like this does make some people look ridiculous. Yet, the fact is, it exists.  But there are many people out there who are exploring and do not know what a Gelug is a how Gelugs pride themselves on logic. So it would be good to clarify. How many thousands of people find this on the net. Wouldn't it be nice if it was explained on a non-nkt platform so the stigma of bias is out of the way.

[icy]

What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct?  Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?


Please see:

http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html

The link doesnt seem to be written by Lucy James, rather it is about her. There's a fair bit of stuff written online about this affair. How much of it is true is unknown. The official NKT response to this is:

"However, these types of accusations do point to a larger issue: Neither Lucy or Bjorn have made any complaints about what took place and by all accounts stayed happy and peaceful throughout. They remain loyal and practicing disciples of Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. As long as that’s the case, then what happens between them and their Spiritual Guide is, quite frankly, their business and not ours. No one had the right to put Lucy’s private letter from Geshe Kelsang on the Internet for example; this was not ethical."

As far as I know, whatever happened between Lucy James & NKT, she has not bad-mouthed Geshe-la as far as I can see. She still refers to Geshe-la as her teacher and promotes Kadampa Buddhism on her websites eg http://knol.google.com/k/kadam-lucy-james/kadampa-buddhism/3l61loh9lbw08/4#

That's what I know and if true, then she does live up to what is expected of a student of the Vajrayana.

Her story is being used as a pawn in the frequent online debates that the NKT is constantly faced with. As organisations grow bigger, these problems are bound to crop up. We do live in samsara after all. And some of the principles of Vajrayana such as guru devotion will appear cultish to the general public. So wherever misunderstandings arise, the students should endeavour to clear the name of the teacher in a manner that is befitting.

LoneRanger is ruffled over TM's sincere question and I just wonder why.

I agree with Duldzin and see logic in what is said about Lucy James and her teacher.  If Lucy has been used as a pawn on online debates, I hope someone who has the insider story will clarify and enlighten us and also clear the name of the teacher as a practice of guru devotion.  I am sure Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche would have done it.

[Big Uncle]

Sorry, I am getting a little confused with all the drama surrounding the topic but nothing that shed light on what happened to Lucy James. As I was reading the link, I was confused by the politics and what's happening according to the sources within NKT. With the resignation of NKT's no 2 mentioned within the same site, I wonder if Lucy James the no. 3 within NKT....

Big Uncle

[thaimonk]

"Wouldn't it be nice if it was explained on a non-nkt platform so the stigma of bias is out of the way. "bu
Yes! It would be quite nice to take a strool through Regent's Park
Boring topic, is it not tm?

Well people like you who have been wronged by Dalai Lama, hate him and his subject boring. People who wrote up about Lucy James were wronged by Geshe Kelsang. It could be boring to them but they made a blogsite about to let the world know of their grievances. Maybe you can make a blogsite about your's or have someone do it for you and you can write your heart's (dis)content all about it everyday, week and year non-stop since you don't get  bored of writing about Dalai Lama. I was wondering what is up with the Lucy Blog? If there's any truth.

[DSFriend]

Just found a cool "reverse email" look-up service:

http://www.spokeo.com/email/

It scans blogs, Amazon, social networking sites (Twitter, flickr), etc. and compiles it all together for you.

Guess what happens when you put in thaimonk's email address ([email protected]) taken off his DS.com forum profile?

Go check it out for yourself!
Pretty depressing actually

Dear TC

What has this got to do with the discussion and contribution of thaimonk on this forum? Everyone in here has much to contribute but a few seems to have been more interested in bashing each other up. Please contribute to this forum in ways which advances our learning.

[honeydakini]

It is ok to "bang on and on" (is this an example of the kind speech you are always urging on everyone, HD?) about what the Dalia Lama is doing wrong becase it is by bringing his criminal activities to light, we benefit the world. As you probably know, the very existence of Shar Ganden and Serpom Norling have arisen due to these protests. It is no problem calling someone a liar wiht a good motivation if a liar they are, don't you think?

There is a danger in losing our critical faculties if we just say "Oh, I can't see any faults or say anything because someone else thinks this person is a lama."

I do understand what you are saying about calling attention to these "criminal activities" and bringing to light the wrongs that have been done against so many millions of innocent people, the abuse of human rights etc

I feel though that there is a marked difference in approach between pointing out the Dalai Lama's actions and personalising it. Yes, there is evidence for the very contradictory and harmful actions of the Dalai Lama and it is not that we are just keeping mum about this and letting it slide. I agree that there should always be transparency and we have a right to check things out for what they are.

The reason I have said what I said in my earlier post is that in this whole issue I have felt that there is always a large group of people (not necessarily on this forum alone, but from what I have read in various articles/blogs, in forums, even in the great deception book) that bring a lot of rhetoric into the discussion, that it begins to feel like it has become a very personal attack against the dalai lama, in a way that - if you weren't away of the history or background - you would come in and just think, "hang on now, this is how buddhists are talking about other buddhists?" I thought the research of great deception was excellent and thorough, but I was very put off by the way it was written because it adopted such a belligent tone that seemed so opposite to the very cause of harmony and peace the book was trying to encourage!

Remember that not everyone is not up-to-date or well versed in the issues; they may know nothing except that there is this vague controversy. Someone new may have chanced upon a post which just stated, "Dalai lama is a liar and hypocrite" (despite the fact that the poster who wrote that had evidence and a strong and logical backing for what he said) - how does that come across or present itself at all for what everyone here in this forum has been trying to build for such a long, long time? Dalai lama may be sarcastic and incendiary with his words, but we don't have to match this responding in the same way, do we? It becomes rather like a case of tit for tat?

Many, many of you who have been here much longer than any of us have collated a tremendous amount of research and evidence for your points and I do respect that very much. Now, how do we present it without sounding rhetorical, petulant, or like we are launching a personal attack on dalai lama? This is how I - and I believe many of the newer people coming to this website/forum - are feeling. That is it personal against dalai lama himself, not his actions.

[thaimonk]

from honeydakini

I do understand what you are saying about calling attention to these "criminal activities" and bringing to light the wrongs that have been done against so many millions of innocent people, the abuse of human rights etc

I feel though that there is a marked difference in approach between pointing out the Dalai Lama's actions and personalising it. Yes, there is evidence for the very contradictory and harmful actions of the Dalai Lama and it is not that we are just keeping mum about this and letting it slide. I agree that there should always be transparency and we have a right to check things out for what they are.

The reason I have said what I said in my earlier post is that in this whole issue I have felt that there is always a large group of people (not necessarily on this forum alone, but from what I have read in various articles/blogs, in forums, even in the great deception book) that bring a lot of rhetoric into the discussion, that it begins to feel like it has become a very personal attack against the dalai lama, in a way that - if you weren't away of the history or background - you would come in and just think, "hang on now, this is how buddhists are talking about other buddhists?" I thought the research of great deception was excellent and thorough, but I was very put off by the way it was written because it adopted such a belligent tone that seemed so opposite to the very cause of harmony and peace the book was trying to encourage!

Remember that not everyone is not up-to-date or well versed in the issues; they may know nothing except that there is this vague controversy. Someone new may have chanced upon a post which just stated, "Dalai lama is a liar and hypocrite" (despite the fact that the poster who wrote that had evidence and a strong and logical backing for what he said) - how does that come across or present itself at all for what everyone here in this forum has been trying to build for such a long, long time? Dalai lama may be sarcastic and incendiary with his words, but we don't have to match this responding in the same way, do we? It becomes rather like a case of tit for tat?

Many, many of you who have been here much longer than any of us have collated a tremendous amount of research and evidence for your points and I do respect that very much. Now, how do we present it without sounding rhetorical, petulant, or like we are launching a personal attack on dalai lama? This is how I - and I believe many of the newer people coming to this website/forum - are feeling. That is it personal against dalai lama himself, not his actions.

I agree very much what you say here HD. There are many new ppl who come to this website and never sign up but simply read, want to understand and learn. Very important that our forum as forum goers share information that 'educate' with a open mind while sharing our views we may be firm on. Firm does not mean we are stubborn, it simply means that I believe in what my stance is, but NOT AT THE EXCLUSION OF YOUR'S.

What happened to Lucy James would be misunderstood by many new people. It certainly took me aback a few steps. Especially the blog re Lucy is free floating and open for all to read. So who will explain what is happening to all the hundreds that come across and read it. Very bad views can be formed. Many can be turned away from the dharma because of it. This forum can be helpful in explaining as we are linked in one way or another with NKT because we worship the same protector. There are policies in NKT I do not agree on at all, but far be it for me to criticize. I would not join NKT because of what I read and examined, but that is for now. I am sure there are hundreds like me out there.

Speaking about this issue here is very helpful to many.

[DSFriend]

What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct?  Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?


Please see:

http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html

The link doesnt seem to be written by Lucy James, rather it is about her. There's a fair bit of stuff written online about this affair. How much of it is true is unknown. The official NKT response to this is:

"However, these types of accusations do point to a larger issue: Neither Lucy or Bjorn have made any complaints about what took place and by all accounts stayed happy and peaceful throughout. They remain loyal and practicing disciples of Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. As long as that’s the case, then what happens between them and their Spiritual Guide is, quite frankly, their business and not ours. No one had the right to put Lucy’s private letter from Geshe Kelsang on the Internet for example; this was not ethical."

As far as I know, whatever happened between Lucy James & NKT, she has not bad-mouthed Geshe-la as far as I can see. She still refers to Geshe-la as her teacher and promotes Kadampa Buddhism on her websites eg http://knol.google.com/k/kadam-lucy-james/kadampa-buddhism/3l61loh9lbw08/4#

Thanks duldzin for the website link. I haven't seen anywhere online of Lucy James talking bad against GKG. Who knows what happened behind the scenes but the fact that there has been no public criticism speaks volume of Lucy James. Since Lucy's a student of GKG, doesn't it reflect well on GKG also?

I'm hoping that someone can shed some light on a few things re NKT.
http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html has summarized quite abit of what circulates on the net.
 - Is it true that NKT does not consider itself a form of Tibetan Buddhism
- The vows of its monastics are confined to NKT-defined vows? What does this mean?

[Helena]

Firstly, I did not know who Lucy James was until I read this thread. And with the link provided by TM, one can deduce a lot of negativity about both Lucy James and NKT just from reading that post. Worse of all, it does not represent a good view on Tibetan Buddhism at all.

This is my personal opinion, of course.

With all the 'airing' of unhappy feelings and 'voicing' of negativities for everyone's viewing pleasure, Tibetan Buddhism looks like the stuff Hollywood Dramas are made of. How would anyone have any respect for it and trust that the path it teaches is valid or beneficial - regardless of the teacher, center and name. So, be it HHDL, GKG, NKT or whoever - it seems every name has some skeletons in their closet. I say again, it seems that way when all we read are such unpleasant things.

Of course, when we read the students' internal dialogue - be it in this Forum, or Lucy James's Blog or anywhere else, then no one will care to think much of the Dharma at all.

In this respect, it is TURNING AWAY a lot of people from potentially entering the Dharma or learning more about the Dharma. Either way - it is not a positive thing.

Attacks of any kinds will not be valued, respected or even applauded. Not in the realms of spirituality, not in the  name of religion. Not when whatever we seem to be preaching or learning is LOVING KINDNESS.

I think, as a newbie, I would like to see more examples of what Compassion actually entails, means and how it is practised in real life situations.

And the only way, I can see Compassion in action is when real, mature, sincere practitioners actually practise it and engage in it. Not just talk about it, quote from texts or scriptures but it does not flow into their manners of body, speech and mind.

[iloveds]

From a western perspective, all this talk about scandal, cult, sex, one spiritual leader has already had its effects.

I do consider myself a  buddhist I do understand the whole Vajrayana aspect of spiritual practice, where nothing is as it seems but all of this has been seen before, many many times before where 1 man stands up breaks away and becomes responsible for the path of many.

I tried searching online to find out more about this lucy james, NKT involvement and GKG just to see what I would find out. You know we are supposed to check out our teachers right before entering into a spiritual relationship lifetime after lifetime.

I am not trying to put down NKT because i don't know anything about it I am just offering a perspective from a westerner who is wanting some form of spirituality what they would think if they dug a little under the surface. In this instance there is whiff of coverup and intrigues, the makings for another waco, ghayana, manson and more... as soon as there is a hint of sex scandal thats the end of making any connection with quite a large group in society.

They will continue as before in their usual existence, of having children, praising their children for having children of their own, then having a meaningless death with not much else to show for a whole lifetime.

I also wonder whether the western student has also taken things a bit at liberty, as it seems to be the case online these days, that its a selective dharma practice, to take a piece from here and there and call themselves spiritual people.

And the only way, I can see Compassion in action is when real, mature, sincere practitioners actually practise it and engage in it. Not just talk about it, quote from texts or scriptures but it does not flow into their manners of body, speech and mind.

i will continue to quote this saying whenever I see this in the forum from now on... seems to be aLOT of these types of beings, and they call it debate, but it waters down their reputation.