What happened to Lucy James?

[Carpenter]

The reason I have said what I said in my earlier post is that in this whole issue I have felt that there is always a large group of people (not necessarily on this forum alone, but from what I have read in various articles/blogs, in forums, even in the great deception book) that bring a lot of rhetoric into the discussion, that it begins to feel like it has become a very personal attack against the dalai lama, in a way that - if you weren't away of the history or background - you would come in and just think, "hang on now, this is how buddhists are talking about other buddhists?" I thought the research of great deception was excellent and thorough, but I was very put off by the way it was written because it adopted such a belligent tone that seemed so opposite to the very cause of harmony and peace the book was trying to encourage!

Remember that not everyone is not up-to-date or well versed in the issues; they may know nothing except that there is this vague controversy. Someone new may have chanced upon a post which just stated, "Dalai lama is a liar and hypocrite" (despite the fact that the poster who wrote that had evidence and a strong and logical backing for what he said) - how does that come across or present itself at all for what everyone here in this forum has been trying to build for such a long, long time? Dalai lama may be sarcastic and incendiary with his words, but we don't have to match this responding in the same way, do we? It becomes rather like a case of tit for tat?

Hi, I'm new to this forum, i have read through a few posts in this forum, i agree with what Honeydakini said, many of the conversation here has become personal attack instead of sharing information.

To someone very new like me, it can be easily putting off by reading all these posts in this forum, why? reason is because for what I understand a Buddhism is suppose to practice to let go, forgive, to cultivate care, kindness, compassion, etc, etc... but what I've seen here is contradict to what I've learned. If someone who are without dharma knowledge said this, i would have understand it, but if this comes from a dharma practitioner, it does sound funny, many people told me, we are human, we live in samsara, but, in other thought, does it sound like it is an excuses for us to continue be what we are? an excuses for us to not to change?

People tend to use their own assumption to judge what's going on with DL or GKG, but how much they understand about what they are doing?

I like what is says here http://www.nktworld.org/revisit.html

    "Selfishness is causing all the suffering in this world.

    We are all slaves to the demon of excessive self concern.

    We have 84,000 delusions. 21,000 different types of anger. 21,000 different types of desirous attachment and 21,000 different types of ignorance and 21,000 different types of inappropriate attention.

    We need to stop looking at other's faults, our main preoccupation in life.

    We have a lot of views that are wrong, they are completely wrong.

    Life seems very simple to the deluded mind.

    People who seem to make us feel bad, although actually nobody really has that power, no one has the power to make us feel bad. There's only one thing that makes us feel bad. Just one. And it's not a person, it's the demon of self cherishing.

    The vast majority of people have the unfortunate title of stranger. And we feel indifferent to all of them. Sad, so sad. We feel indifferent to others...That can include an entire race of people, an entire group of people that hold particular religious views, an entire group of people who hold political views. We can just wipe them out with one amputation. We forsake them and have indifference towards them.

    All we need to do is stop cherishing our self and learn to cherish others. This takes a humble mind."

But how many of us can do that???

[Lone Hermit]

What is the problem? That is my email. I am multi-lingual. I am a great fan of Tsem Tulku. And I linked his blog to the China world so that the Chinese world can receive his teachings !! What did you discover? What is wrong? You found another blog about His Eminence Tsem Tulku Rinpoche and it is done by me. Who knows how many other fans out there have created blogs about Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. By the way I don't think Tsem Tulku Rinpoche knows Chinese.

What does this have to do with Lucy James?

THAIMONK

I read that Tsem Tulku has advised his students to follow the DL with regards the Shugden dispute. He said it was just Tibetan politics and that it has no relevance to our dharma practice.

www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=923.0

TM are you able to clarify this one way or the other?

[Mana]

Nothing to do with Lucy,but everything to do with your little coup
Did you think you could just walk in here and take over the site for your lama's fame and fortune
Here in the West, little mind, We do not care to put anyone up on a throne except for Teachings.This is not Malaysia and we have no history with God Worshipping Men as Gods. So forget your fantasy and get back to reality. Your friend lonely hermit is a real piece of nonsense. Where did you get him the nursery or mental ward.
If you guys want to get serious, then shut up and leave others alone. Post what you like, but stop defending your made up kingdom. I like what you are doing, but you are not smarter than the rest of us. So stop be deceptive and sly! It makes me sick and angry to read the Lone Hermit and yours suggestions.
You stop attacking GKG and me and you'll be fine. Otherwise you leave me no choice, but to go after you and your posting.
If you do not like what I say, to f......  bad!

Dear Tc,

You have been warned  regarding your slanderous talk and rudeness. Your accusations educate no one and you provide no information that leads to any knowledge. Your posts for years are negative, angry words against the Dalai Lama.

We ask you to please not be on this website any further. We are sorry for this. But this website will not tolerate any more slander, harsh words and accusations from you. We wish you to make peace with yourself and the world around you.

Mana

[DSFriend]

Another made up person protesting from the same old tired worn out site.
You people are really a piece of work
Now we have another schism as a diversion from the actual schism
Why do you not stay the same person or do you think you are Dorje Shugden?

Dear TC

Do not generalize and put down the people on this forum. You are being very rude and disrespectful. Who are you to say who is made up and who is not? And how many names have you used on this forum?

You have not put in the effort to build, design, develop this website. What rights do you have to criticize this website that it's tired and worn out!

TC, how have you contributed to this website. If this website is so bad, why are you still here!

[Mana]

Nothing to do with Lucy,but everything to do with your little coup
Did you think you could just walk in here and take over the site for your lama's fame and fortune
Here in the West, little mind, We do not care to put anyone up on a throne except for Teachings.This is not Malaysia and we have no history with God Worshipping Men as Gods. So forget your fantasy and get back to reality. Your friend lonely hermit is a real piece of nonsense. Where did you get him the nursery or mental ward.
If you guys want to get serious, then shut up and leave others alone. Post what you like, but stop defending your made up kingdom. I like what you are doing, but you are not smarter than the rest of us. So stop be deceptive and sly! It makes me sick and angry to read the Lone Hermit and yours suggestions.
You stop attacking GKG and me and you'll be fine. Otherwise you leave me no choice, but to go after you and your posting.
If you do not like what I say, to f......  bad!

Extremely unnecessary.

Mana

[Mana]

Another made up person protesting from the same old tired worn out site.
You people are really a piece of work
Now we have another schism as a diversion from the actual schism
Why do you not stay the same person or do you think you are Dorje Shugden?

So unnecessary. What a rude way to 'welcome' the newcomer. This is not called for here nor accepted here on this Buddhist forum.

Mana

[zamzam24388]

There have been cases of many people on this Forum (inother threads) who have been very rude with their name-callings.  any many people have asked for them to be at least civilised.  This Forum is for all to engage in debate and get questions answered.

So, what happened to Lucy?  She has not come forward here to answer this question herself.  Like Triesa, I do not know of Lucy if not for this thread.  And yes, no one has been able to answer that question : What happened to Lucy James?  Looks like no one is bothered to help TM get the correct answer as the thread has gone off on a different angle to other matters.

[iloveds]

Is this thread going thread going anywhere?
Is it getting personal?
Is anger the norm of this forum?

Why should 1 person decide to be the champion of anger to achieve a point of view, other than to stroke their verbal ego on a public platform.

If you have a problem with someone, why do you use the board to have your personal debate and disrupt and abuse the use of the forum.

You could have sent PM's to the user, you could after not resolving your differences requested the admins support.

Did you try all this before the tyrade of replies which only served to fan a fire that was never really necessary. Your tactics to draw response sound like barking to me.

Whom am i talking about? The selfish one, the take me as me, and the whole world should because I really am "I".
People make me "Hate" others make me who I am today. When I wake up tomorrow may I bless the world with my  "
manjushri speech" or my worldly speech.

Thought people here took refuge in the Lamrim. I'm not scholarly enough to quote from it, but just based on attitude alone, can we Honestly say Lamrim is soo dear to us all?

Admin's please if this discussion doesn't go anywhere may I suggest the thread be locked / deleted to please the few.

iloveds

~ but definitely not this.

[thaimonk]

If Lucy is being used as a pawn and it could be so, why doesn't she speak up? Why doesn't she write the opposite or ask them to remove her name from their blogsite and any reference to her so she can't be used as pawn?

[harrynephew]

reading this thread initially makes me wonder and also inquisitive about what had transpired between Lucy James and GKG in NKT and get some good updates.

As I go down the thread, I find it a bit disheartening to find people here still go about bashing other people/centre/Lama in order to get them to look really silly which in turns makes this entire thread pointless and frivolous.

Personally, we have to be honest with ourselves what kind of message we wanna send out to the people who are gonna read this thread here. If something has transpires between a guru and his/her disciple, it is a lesson to be learnt by the disciple and kept to heart never to repeat that mistake again. On the teacher's side, it is obvious that the teacher will be forever compassionate and will find ways to "re-tune" their students back onto the good path in order to bring benefit to the student and the people this student can benefit.

Untiringly, the guru suffers from ridicules, back lashing and other negative comments for being 'unfair' but in actual fact exhibits unlimited compassion which is unfathomed by the eyes of a normal person. This is a well known fact if he is a real Lama which wishes to benefit his student/disciple. Through this great kindness, coupled by the efforts and mertis of the wronged student, that student will heal/transform to be a better being.

I don't know if what has been reported is true about Lucy James but indeed there's always hope and another chance for people in life, whether secular or spiritual. This is  well known fact.

I wonder who else shares my sentiments/feelings.

H1N1

[WisdomBeing]

I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.

So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.

If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.

[hope rainbow]

HD, I like your posts, and I think a lot of readers here like them, for they don't put fuel on the fire, they don't "take side", they are informative and put the topic back on track.

Now, about Lucy James, I really can't answer the question.
Yet, I would like that we go back to some basic before we scrutinize other peole's relation with their Gurus, as this exercise could be pretty un-conclusive when our mind is clouded by delusions.

The Lamrim lists FOUR GREATNESSES OF THE DHARMA:
1. the greatness of allowing you to realize that the teachings are without contradiction
(that requires humility, open-mindedness as well as a sincere and pure motivation AND WE KNOW HOW HARD IT IS!)
2. the greatness of allowing all the teachings to present themselves to you as instructions
(that would equate to "walking the talk")
(AND THAT WON'T HAPPEN IF WE STILL SEE CONTRADICTIONS!)
3. the greatness of allowing you to easily discover the tue thinking of the Victorious One
(that would be to attain realizations)
(AND THAT WON'T HAPPEN IF WE DON'Y PRACTICE!)
4. the greatness of allowing you to save yourself from the worst misdeed
(AND THAT LIKELY TO HAPPEN IF WE DON'T GET ANY RESULT FROM OUR PRACTICE!)
(that would be to abandon Dharma)

The Lamrim also says that THE ROOT OF THE PATH IS DEVOTION TO ONE'S SPIRITUAL GUIDE (GURU).

Don't we all suppose that Lucy James knows this?
Maybe she has even realized these headings? I can't say, i don't know...

But sure, in the relationship between a Guru and and student, there is more than meet the eyes.
What more? I don't know, maybe in this case, there is nothing more than meet the eyes.
But on the basis that I don't know, I would rather refrain from making a judgement.

[DSFriend]

I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.

Dear WisdomBeing,
It's sad to read the amount of backstabbing, rumours, politics, segregations, camps that's out there surrounding all the good that's available in the Buddhist path. It's commendable that you have remained unbiased on your facebook and in this forum...and I wish to thank you for reflecting the Buddhist path well as a practitioner.

So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

Good point! I suppose that's how rumors spread like wild fire...when people jumps to conclusions.

If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.

Kudos to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Lucy James!

[honeydakini]

In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.

If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.

Well said, Kate.

To be honest, I am not as interested in what happened between Lucy and her Guru, as I am in how this episode has become so blown up all over the Buddhist world. I am sure there are hundreds if not thousands more cases where a student had a kind of fall out with her teacher – perhaps even worse. This even happens in the monasteries, where monks blatantly forsake their teachers, disrobe and leave.

I am curious as to how this has become such a tremendous issue when actually, it is happening all the time. It happens with every single one of us too. It’s on a smaller level perhaps but it still definitely happens: each time we don’t listen to what our teachers tell us to do, go against his word, try to prove ourselves right over him. Many practitioners out there are probably worse than Lucy in the way they go around badmouthing their own Gurus after they leave.

So my question is (a slightly different take on the original question of this thread) how did this Lucy James issue become so big? And why? This would certainly say a lot for how the Buddhist world has become that something so sacred – a guru-disciple relationship – has become so sensationalised.

Love, Rachel RahRah

[Helena]

Great sharing, Kate. Thank you.

I especially like the part you wrote about how Lucy James has refrained from saying anything and still regards GKG as her Guru. And that is the very testament that her Guru has taught her well, and that their relationship is still very much a teacher-student relationship.

I am sorry to hear about you being dragged into the anti-NKT war.

I don't really believe what NKTworld posts - it seems to be taking bits and pieces of stories from the little that they know and then crafting it into something they want the reader to see - that is, their very own perspective. This is the most dangerous kind of reporting, because it sounds so credible and professional. Scary to even think how many people read the stuff and totally buy it. How very sad!

Yes, if I didn't follow this thread and read the more meaningful information shared here, especially, the logical thinking from various members, then I think I might be inclined to believe the stuff NKTWorld writes. For this and more, I am very glad to be in this Forum and have this space to discuss and ponder on all issues - some may be difficult and ugly, but if we do address them in a manner that promotes better understanding, it can only benefit more people.

I for one have learnt something much more about NKT, anti-NKT and I have come away feeling more respect for GKG and Lucy James.


 

I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.

So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.

If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.