What happened to Lucy James?

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Not that this is my business to comment on the "Lucy-issue", but it seems that people miss a few general points, so I feel justified to comment here:

1 - a student or a disciple can disagree with his or her Guru or Lama, on basically just about everything. This is a logical necessity within Buddhism, because, no disciple can be expected to share the view of the Guru, for otherwise the disciple would already be a Buddha, and thattaway not be a disciple. Hence, all disciples necessarily disagree with their Gurus, at some level at least. (In Tantra, this 'mental gap' is tried to overcome quickly, and the methods of overcoming it form the major part of the practice. But it holds true also in Sutra, as the original students of Shakyamuni - Ananda, Shariputra, Mogallana, and so forth - were not immediately Buddhas themselves. Only after a week or practice, or after a 40 years of practice)

2 - any Teacher of Dharma must conform to the views of his or her Guru or Lama in public, that is, while being in a role of a Teacher, for the transmission of Lineage to take place. In cases when the Teacher is also a student (read: always) he or she can in private hold different views, as per the above point 1, but cannot express them aloud, in public, while being in the role of a Teacher of the lineage of his or her own Teacher.

The so called "Lucy-issue" is just that, as far as I understood it. She spoke something in direct opposition to, not merely misquoting or lacking understanding, the words of her Lama (no matter what the point of differing view was) as a Teacher of the lineage of her Lama, and was therefore by default no longer fit to be an official transmitter of the lineage. Thereby GKG had no option but to take the teacher-status away from her. This decision was not made as any 'punishment' towards her, nor was it personal, but it was made so that the lineage would really and thoroughly be transmitted to all those who were her current students. One cannot transmit a lineage coming from someone with whom one disagrees diametrically and openly. If your Guru says "go left" and you then as a teacher-student say to your students "let us go right", would you in that case be transmitting the lineage? What would your students think then? "Guru L says non-x, while Guru L's Guru, the Big K, says yes-x, so what is Guru L then teaching, really? Her own vision, or the lineage?" The decision to 'boot' Lucy was made for the benefit of the many, not for the punishment of a single. She still is of course a practitioner, and a disciple of GKG, as is fitting and wonderful.

PS: For what I know about the happenstance in question, I agreed with Lucy. Therefore I would have been 'given the boot' also, had I been in her shoes.

PPS: Hopefully this thread now stops here... it is a weird thing that this popped up here in the first place, and that so many people who neither knew about this, or knew about it very well without never thinking about it in dharmic terms, have seen it necessary to comment comment comment...


Buddha taught Lamrim, not Gossip.

[thaimonk]

Great sharing, Kate. Thank you.

I especially like the part you wrote about how Lucy James has refrained from saying anything and still regards GKG as her Guru. And that is the very testament that her Guru has taught her well, and that their relationship is still very much a teacher-student relationship.

I am sorry to hear about you being dragged into the anti-NKT war.

I don't really believe what NKTworld posts - it seems to be taking bits and pieces of stories from the little that they know and then crafting it into something they want the reader to see - that is, their very own perspective. This is the most dangerous kind of reporting, because it sounds so credible and professional. Scary to even think how many people read the stuff and totally buy it. How very sad!

Yes, if I didn't follow this thread and read the more meaningful information shared here, especially, the logical thinking from various members, then I think I might be inclined to believe the stuff NKTWorld writes. For this and more, I am very glad to be in this Forum and have this space to discuss and ponder on all issues - some may be difficult and ugly, but if we do address them in a manner that promotes better understanding, it can only benefit more people.

I for one have learnt something much more about NKT, anti-NKT and I have come away feeling more respect for GKG and Lucy James.


 

I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.

So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.

If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.

It is very interesting to see what you both posted here. I find it a nice interesting read.

It is nice to express opininons and not have to bash the Dalai lama. Bashing the Dalai Lama is not dharma, good karma or in accordance with any dharma teachings. And it would be slandering.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

It is nice to express opininons and not have to bash the Dalai lama.

Bashing the Dalai Lama is not dharma, good karma or in accordance with any dharma teachings.

And it would be slandering.

Now this of course depends on what we mean with the word "bashing".

It it means "purposefully telling bad things", it is a non-dharmic thing, and so forth, as there is an evil intent to tell baddities.
But if someone would say that the DL has "went against his own Guru, has caused a division within Tibetan community, etc" with the intent of trying to inform people that they should not venerate an evil-doer, but to request him to stop His non-dharmic activities, would that be "bashing", or dharmic?

As to karma, I understand that intentional silence is equal to the act committed by another (more or take). Dharma-teachings do not say, to my knowledge, that people should be silent in the face of evil. And as for slandering, the HHDL has himself declared his Gurus to be "wrong", and all the reports of ostracization and violence towards DS-practitioner to be "just rumours", while we all know very well, that they are a constant fact.

In fact, not to speak out, is a karmic act,

[harrynephew]

Kate's recent post have made me think deeply about how influential this entire post is to the people outside which of course affected me as well. NKTworld has made itself too accessible as a paparazi of the New Kadampa Tradition and of course its founder and members of this organization.

I was thinking to myself, why put so much effort into bringing up uncanny issues within the organization which doesn't really benefit anyone but in actual fact causes so much unnecesaary upheaval and distress amongst its readers. Aren't all the great translated works of the venerable GKG worthy of our praise for our own personal and spiritual growth that we cannot thank this venerable enough for making so easily available for us.

I am going for a more balanced, optimistic approach towards this matter and in all matters in regards to all holy masters regardless of their practice and belief in DS or not. I think that is the spiritual way and that is the right way to do things. There is no way around it which makes it better/worse or more palatable with scandals or other unnecessary stories. Whether what transpired between Lucy James and GKG was true or not, the important matter is that Lucy is back teaching and benefiting people in NKT.

If the story behind it is beneficial for us to know, it would've been published by now. Don't u guys think so.

take a look at this new thread by Honey Dakini, I feel that this is more of a sensible approach to take.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=851.0

thanks
H1N1

[WisdomBeing]

Now this of course depends on what we mean with the word "bashing".

It it means "purposefully telling bad things", it is a non-dharmic thing, and so forth, as there is an evil intent to tell baddities.
But if someone would say that the DL has "went against his own Guru, has caused a division within Tibetan community, etc" with the intent of trying to inform people that they should not venerate an evil-doer, but to request him to stop His non-dharmic activities, would that be "bashing", or dharmic?

As to karma, I understand that intentional silence is equal to the act committed by another (more or take). Dharma-teachings do not say, to my knowledge, that people should be silent in the face of evil. And as for slandering, the HHDL has himself declared his Gurus to be "wrong", and all the reports of ostracization and violence towards DS-practitioner to be "just rumours", while we all know very well, that they are a constant fact.

In fact, not to speak out, is a karmic act,

I think the 'bashing' is the tone of the post. For example, i can state that I think that the Dalai Lama's ban goes against his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche's teachings. In doing so, isn't he breaking the samaya with his Guru? I don't think there is anyone here who disagrees with that premise. Ok, i might be wrong, but i don't think that is slandering or bashing him up. It's factual.

I don't think anyone here AGREES with the ban. And everyone AGREES that the ban is destructive and yes, schismatic. Shar Gaden and Serpom are supreme examples of how schismatic. HOWEVER, I think it's just how we perceive the reasons BEHIND the ban and it's very clear that there are different points of view on it, which is fine, since this is a forum where we can all express our opinions respectfully.

Re the ostracisation and suffering by the Shugdenpas is beyond doubt - and i think that is also mutually agreed by all in this forum. In fact, i'm always saying that it's fine for me in my nice comfy (ok sometimes the heating doesnt work so well) flat in London, with Sainsbury's just round the corner, to do my prayers and meet my friends and talk about Dorje Shugden. Nobody (not yet anyway) is beating down my door and sending me death threats. But for those in the Tibetan refugee camps - i feel for their angst. And thank goodness for people like Tenzin Sungrab, who is there on the ground and tells us what's happening - eg the monk who looks after the DS chapel who gets beaten up.

So i always think - what can i do to help - positively that is? i'm not rich (I wish) but i can contribute a bit to Tenzin Sungrab's mission - where he directly helps the monks - bravo! To Tk - who is always the first to say he supports any request for help. To this website - someone must be paying for it, maintaining it. To the upcoming movie - someone is researching, producing it.

I can also read up on what's going on so if people ask me, i can give an objective (i try) overview of what's going on, and more importantly focus on this practice rather than its politics.

Most of all, i can be a good example of my Dharma practice. Of course i'm not a Buddha.. far from it, but I try to live my life with Dharma guidelines as much as I can.

There are many people who come to this website - i've noticed the counter jumping.. what information will they see... what impression of this Protector will they get? This is the Protector of Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition... what are the practitioners of this Protector like? Who are we? Are we Buddhist?

I've always thought that Buddhism is about others. To focus out on their needs. So for these new people, what can i do? I've answered this question in other threads too so i don't need to repeat it here.

Re speaking out - definitely we must speak out - firmly but with logic and respect. I don't think speaking out is about taking personal swipes at each other. Just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion, i don't call them stupid or foolish. That's basic etiquette, i think. Free speech is not about personally attacking the other person if they don't agree with you.

I really hope you understand where I'm coming from. Please look at our similar goals and not our differences. I love Dorje Shugden and I hope many people will have the opportunity to have his blessings and connect with Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.

Let's share the blessings that we have received with the world... how have we benefited from DS practice or even the Dharma in general? Has our Dharma practice made us kinder, more patient, more respectful? Why are we learning Dharma? What is it for?

[Helena]

WB, you always write the best stuff that echoes the things in my heart and mind!

Thank you so much!

I can definitely relate because I live both in London and Hong Kong. Now, mostly Hong Kong. But I have the luxury, comfort and ease of openly talking about DS and even putting DS's picture in my desk without as much anyone raising an eyebrow.

So far, I have not come across anyone who would be beating down my door and asking me why this and that, or have me reported to TGIE. In fact, some colleagues are so fascinated with my picture that they have been asking what's someone like me doing with that picture? That allows me to start a dialogue, and even direct those who are very interested to this site.

Anyways, my point is there is a huge difference between presenting your views and debating - to attacking and using very angry words to the point of name calling. Who will listen to the real message in all those "ugly noise"?

We can still respect each other even when we can't agree. What is so difficult or wrong about that?

So, if I don't like chocolate ice cream but prefer vanilla, and you like chocolate ice cream, does it mean that I can't share ice cream with you ever again?!

We can still enjoy having ice cream together, even though its different flavours for you and me, right?

This is my very simple analogy.

[thaimonk]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to?   Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.

Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.

The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?

[honeydakini]

Now this of course depends on what we mean with the word "bashing".

It it means "purposefully telling bad things", it is a non-dharmic thing, and so forth, as there is an evil intent to tell baddities.
But if someone would say that the DL has "went against his own Guru, has caused a division within Tibetan community, etc" with the intent of trying to inform people that they should not venerate an evil-doer, but to request him to stop His non-dharmic activities, would that be "bashing", or dharmic?

As to karma, I understand that intentional silence is equal to the act committed by another (more or take). Dharma-teachings do not say, to my knowledge, that people should be silent in the face of evil. And as for slandering, the HHDL has himself declared his Gurus to be "wrong", and all the reports of ostracization and violence towards DS-practitioner to be "just rumours", while we all know very well, that they are a constant fact.

In fact, not to speak out, is a karmic act,

I think what you have said here is very clear and I understand what you mean about the intent with which we are speaking.

Not speaking up in a strong manner however is not to say that we keep mum and don’t speak at all – no, keeping quiet is just as much a manifestation of a selfish mind that wishes only to protect itself.

I do, however, also agree strongly with what Kate has said here: “I don't think speaking out is about taking personal swipes at each other. Just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion, i don't call them stupid or foolish. That's basic etiquette, i think.”

This too is very clear – and applies of course to both sides. Whether you’re speaking in this way in defense of the DL (but against Dorje Shugden) or in defence of DS (and against the DL), personal swipes are just never cool and certainly doesn’t reflect well on ourselves as a practitioner.

What Zhamed Palmo has pointed out is very good – it makes us consider why we are saying what we are saying?

However, I do think that often, a good intent is not really enough and we need a certain level of skilful means to be able to carry out that good intent all the way to its desired result. This is why I have also often spoken about looking at other methods for bringing our message across – instead of merely just pointing out all that the DL is doing wrong, perhaps for some people, it may be more helpful to explain to them what they should look for, the positive and correct aspects of teachers and practice that they should strive for. This way, they can come to their own logical and informed decision about how to proceed in their practice.

I have written about this before but I mention it again as I think it’s relevant in the context of this post: I respect very much the great amount of research that went into the Great Deception book, for example, but I was totally put off by the excessive rhetoric and very strong language used throughout the book. I felt that this was very clearly a book that “bashed”. Rather than presenting the facts in a clear and direct manner, the details were always coloured by what seemed like very personal interpretations – by the end of the book, I felt like I had had a view completely jammed down my throat: “Subscribe to this view or else you are a traitor to our cause because DL is such and such and such, and how can you think otherwise?” I felt like I was being totally patronised and didn’t have the space to debate things or look at things objectively because there was always such a strong view being forced upon me. I dread to think what a new person would have thought upon reading this. This, I feel is “bashing” when we are consciously trying to strongly influence and change someone’s view to be that of ours, instead of allowing them the facts and respect to think for themselves.

We talk about the importance of having debate in Buddhism, but this kind of forced view – “bashing” – is not an open debate. What I have liked about this website is that it presents all the information – articles about the ban, videos about the protest, evidence of what the Dalai Lama and TGIE have done to suppress DS practitioners, personal letters etc etc etc BUT it leaves it up to you to make a decision – what do you make of all this information? It is clear who is suffering, who needs support. At the same time, plenty of information is also provided about the practice itself, Dorje Shugden, the masters who propitiate him etc. It is then also clear what aspects of the ban are correct, incorrect/totally false, illogical. It allows people the room to investigate and come to an informed decision on their own. In this way, I believe, the practice and faith becomes stronger as it is based on conviction and understanding, not merely because someone has said rude things to them or patronised them into thinking that only one view (about either DL or DS) is right

Consider that “bashing” isn’t subjective merely from the side of the person speaking, but also from the person who is on the receiving end. And how we are tailoring our information, speech and presentation will totally influence how they make their own decisions about spiritual practice.

[LosangKhyentse]

I do, however, also agree strongly with what Kate has said here: “I don't think speaking out is about taking personal swipes at each other. Just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion, i don't call them stupid or foolish. That's basic etiquette, i think.”


This too is very clear – and applies of course to both sides. Whether you’re speaking in this way in defense of the DL (but against Dorje Shugden) or in defence of DS (and against the DL), personal swipes are just never cool and certainly doesn’t reflect well on ourselves as a practitioner.

I really like what you wrote up here. Calling eachother by different deragotory names such as liar, stupid, and the likes is so uncalled for.

This forum is not just for us. It is for the thousands every year who drop by to read. For their sakes we must have good writings here.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

This too is very clear – and applies of course to both sides. Whether you’re speaking in this way in defense of the DL (but against Dorje Shugden) or in defence of DS (and against the DL), personal swipes are just never cool and certainly doesn’t reflect well on ourselves as a practitioner.

If we wish to convince the world about the ban and what the Dalai Lama is doing, we should first attract them with posts that are relevant, educational, and pleasant to the newcomer and eachother. Otherwise, they will get turned off at the first instance.
tk

[LosangKhyentse]

However, I do think that often, a good intent is not really enough and we need a certain level of skilful means to be able to carry out that good intent all the way to its desired result. This is why I have also often spoken about looking at other methods for bringing our message across – instead of merely just pointing out all that the DL is doing wrong, perhaps for some people, it may be more helpful to explain to them what they should look for, the positive and correct aspects of teachers and practice that they should strive for. This way, they can come to their own logical and informed decision about how to proceed in their practice.

This statement is so powerful. GOOD INTENT IS NOT ENOUGH. To justify any actions by intent alone is not enough. Intent, action, and the concluding effects must all be CONSIDERED. When we consider from beginning to end, then that is a true lam rim practitioner. It is our responsibility to consider all of this for others before we speak or act.

We must consider the effects from beginning to end. If the way we speak hurts more than helps, then we shouldn't expect the whole of samsara to ACCEPT US AS WE ARE. Then why strive to be a Buddha. As a Buddha is far from the WAY WE ARE. We have to constantly strive to find generous, skilfull and pleasing methods to soothe the minds of others. We can't go up to level of a Buddha, but they can come down to our level and manifest as we need for the moment. If we turn others off because of our presentation style, then we are not going to win them over are we? If we think, well too bad, that's who I am. Well that is who you percieve yourself to be so if it is not effective, change it. Life's too short to be stuck on a ineffective mode of conduct.

Giving information that is not biased and presenting it to the general public TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES on this forum or in a book or website is really THE WAY TO GO.

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

I have written about this before but I mention it again as I think it’s relevant in the context of this post: I respect very much the great amount of research that went into the Great Deception book, for example, but I was totally put off by the excessive rhetoric and very strong language used throughout the book. I felt that this was very clearly a book that “bashed”. Rather than presenting the facts in a clear and direct manner, the details were always coloured by what seemed like very personal interpretations – by the end of the book, I felt like I had had a view completely jammed down my throat: “Subscribe to this view or else you are a traitor to our cause because DL is such and such and such, and how can you think otherwise?” I felt like I was being totally patronised and didn’t have the space to debate things or look at things objectively because there was always such a strong view being forced upon me. I dread to think what a new person would have thought upon reading this. This, I feel is “bashing” when we are consciously trying to strongly influence and change someone’s view to be that of ours, instead of allowing them the facts and respect to think for themselves.

I had great hopes in the book Great Deception. I bought over 100 copies to pass out to people and distribute. 70% of the feedback I got back was it was too anti-dalai lama with very strong rhetoric that was excessive. Some after flipping through felt it was a hate book against the Dalai Lama.

The book was well researched and had so much wealth of information. The title and presentation style should be more 'democratic' with information presented for people to think, digest and come out with their own conclusions. That style of presentation might be too 'gentle' and not win your point across immediately, but it will not leave a wrong negative imprint in the minds of people about the Shugdenpas. Eventually they can hear more, go on the net and do more research. Truth will come out if it is presented correctly.

Why doesn't anyone listen, respect, or even care about the Talibans. Their presentation is over extreme. Shugdenpas or people on this forum are nowhere near Talibans, but it is just an example.


TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Consider that “bashing” isn’t subjective merely from the side of the person speaking, but also from the person who is on the receiving end. And how we are tailoring our information, speech and presentation will totally influence how they make their own decisions about spiritual practice.

Superb point! Spoken like a dharma practitoner. 'Bashing' is not merely from the side of the person speaking, but the recipient must be fully considered. That is most important for a dharma student. To always think of the recipient.
tk

[shugdenprotect]

I like Samayatrees’ analogy of the doctor and patient. In relation to some of the posts on this thread, it would seem like some students (patients) are like a contaminated cup whereby whatever good thing (Dharma teachings) the doctor (Guru) put into the cup, it will become soiled. From the writings, it seems like everyone is well read in the Dharma and know the various happenings in the Dharma world. However, it is very unfortunate that some are using this knowledge to create such disharmony, confusion and disruption in this forum.

It is certainly sad and awful that, in the past, “bad” decisions have been made and suffering has been caused. However, grasping onto this past and continuously talking about it does not help matters. In fact, such reinforcing negative actions results in the suffering of more individuals, such as new practitioners who come across this thread/the anti-NKT site and get disheartened by the poor reflection on Dharma by the participants.

If we believe in group-karma as Dharma practitioners, we are creating the cause for Dharma to fall right here with such words and use of such content. Therefore, instead of using harsh words & brainpower to criticize the many kind Dharma teachers who have spent their lives spreading the Dharma and other students and centers, we need to re-focus on our Dharma practice.

As to whether an act is “bashing” or Dharmic, I have been taught to look at the result around. If the result is one that creates happiness and peace, then it is probably Dharmic. If the result is confusion, aggression, name calling etc. then it would be fair to deduce that the act is “bashing”. 

Again, some decisions and actions of DL and/or GKG are not agreeable and caused problems, but holding onto the negative past and adding fuel to fire, is not a solution (if it were, this problem would have long been solved). There are other more Dharmic methods available to solve this problem and it is the way that we choose that determines the type of person we are. If students would simply refer to constructive ways of the Dharma like the 50 verses of Guru Devotion to resolve this controversy, there is no need for hurtful words towards “old” Dharma sisters and brothers. Additionally, our “innocent” new Dharma brothers and sisters would not have to read such aggressive and damaging accusations. Like HoneyDakini say, think of OTHERS before we act. 

[Helena]

As I read all the posts again - I keep seeing that there is a Lucy James in every one of us. Because she is a student like all of us, and her relationship with her Guru may mirror ours with our own Teachers.

Do we always trust our Guru and will go all the way - all the time? How many of us can say that?

Have we been guilty of speaking badly about our Guru behind his back? May be some.

Have we publicly disobeyed our Guru because we couldn't understand why he said or did certain things, and have that disobedience landed us in some sort of trouble? Yes, probably more times than we care to admit.

Did we need all of our Guru's advice, all the time? Probably not all the time, and not on everything - just the things we like or can relate to, or can accept.

WE will always find it most difficult to do anything or say anything that we cannot accept. No, there is nothing wrong here. Just goes to show everyone is deeply attached to their own way of thinking and do not trust their Guru 100% as they should. After all, this is the path of Vajrayana. And we all know what that entails and means.

So, at the end of the day, we may have the karma to meet the great surgeon who will save our lives or the great teacher who will help transform our minds, but when we will not take the bitter medicine - nothing will happen. In fact, we can easily become worse and degenerate further.

So, what happened to Lucy James? A little bit of "her" lives inside us all.

What can we all learn from Lucy James?

1) All the things that she apparently did say and do to give 'anti-NKT' enough ammunition to create confusion and bad press about her Guru and NKT itself, to the point of smearing herself in the process. May be.

2) All the things she didn't say or do, and continued being a student of GKG and still regarding GKG as her Guru.

The teacher and student relationship is never an easy one. Yes, not easy on the student. But most challenging for the teacher, above all.

I have been reading this book called, "A Dangerous Friend". It really talks about the teacher and student relationship extensively. It has truly opened my eyes. So, I am really not quick to judge who is right or wrong. It is strictly personal, between that particular student and teacher. Only they know the truth.

I am sure no one is able to speak for you about your own relationship with your Guru and no one can, because it is not their journey but yours alone.

Yes, we may learn from one another and exchange notes, but we can never judge. We do not walk in their shoes nor live their lives.

So, you are students of GKG - great, let see how good a person you are and what wonderful works you are doing. Similarly, we say we are DS practitioners, then we will be measured by how we speak and treat one another.

And if we are not reflecting a good impression - then we have to ask ourselves why? Perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board or training camp? 

Let's create good causes for Dharma to grow and DS to be embraced by those who do not know him, everyone. All of you here are very well learned and talented (from the way you all write). So, these talents should be put to much better use and create better causes for what we all believe in.

Have a good night.