What happened to Lucy James?

[Dharmapal]

I take your points, Helena, and agree that we are works in progress when it comes to being good disciples. But for the record Lucy James herself has never spoken badly about her Spiritual Guide. She was asked to resign because the director of her center resigned because he thought that Geshe Kelsang was engaging in political behavior. She had apparently never said publicly that it was political behavior according to her other students, and had been at the demonstrations, but seemed to end up being a fall guy for whatever reason, karmic or otherwise. That reason is between her and Geshe Kelsang, who was most likely at least giving her food for deep thought, and Lucy herself seemed to take it as a teaching and stayed good humored throughout. Geshe Kelsang offered her the option to teach shortly afterward at a larger center, but at the time she was already doing some retreat and helping the NKT with various useful projects, or for her own reasons did not rush to take up that offer, which Geshe Kelsang accepted.  For the last year she has been enjoying a long retreat with Geshe Kelsang's blessings.

I am not going to write this all over the Internet as I don't think we should intrude on her privacy further (leave that to the anti-NKT sites); but as everyone has been speculating like crazy on this thread, I thought it might be helpful to give these additional details from what I understand of the situation. Thanks.

[Vajraprotector]

Not that this is my business to comment on the "Lucy-issue", but it seems that people miss a few general points, so I feel justified to comment here:

1 - a student or a disciple can disagree with his or her Guru or Lama, on basically just about everything. This is a logical necessity within Buddhism, because, no disciple can be expected to share the view of the Guru, for otherwise the disciple would already be a Buddha, and thattaway not be a disciple. Hence, all disciples necessarily disagree with their Gurus, at some level at least. (In Tantra, this 'mental gap' is tried to overcome quickly, and the methods of overcoming it form the major part of the practice. But it holds true also in Sutra, as the original students of Shakyamuni - Ananda, Shariputra, Mogallana, and so forth - were not immediately Buddhas themselves. Only after a week or practice, or after a 40 years of practice)

2 - any Teacher of Dharma must conform to the views of his or her Guru or Lama in public, that is, while being in a role of a Teacher, for the transmission of Lineage to take place. In cases when the Teacher is also a student (read: always) he or she can in private hold different views, as per the above point 1, but cannot express them aloud, in public, while being in the role of a Teacher of the lineage of his or her own Teacher.

The so called "Lucy-issue" is just that, as far as I understood it. She spoke something in direct opposition to, not merely misquoting or lacking understanding, the words of her Lama (no matter what the point of differing view was) as a Teacher of the lineage of her Lama, and was therefore by default no longer fit to be an official transmitter of the lineage. Thereby GKG had no option but to take the teacher-status away from her. This decision was not made as any 'punishment' towards her, nor was it personal, but it was made so that the lineage would really and thoroughly be transmitted to all those who were her current students. One cannot transmit a lineage coming from someone with whom one disagrees diametrically and openly. If your Guru says "go left" and you then as a teacher-student say to your students "let us go right", would you in that case be transmitting the lineage? What would your students think then? "Guru L says non-x, while Guru L's Guru, the Big K, says yes-x, so what is Guru L then teaching, really? Her own vision, or the lineage?" The decision to 'boot' Lucy was made for the benefit of the many, not for the punishment of a single. She still is of course a practitioner, and a disciple of GKG, as is fitting and wonderful.

PS: For what I know about the happenstance in question, I agreed with Lucy. Therefore I would have been 'given the boot' also, had I been in her shoes.

PPS: Hopefully this thread now stops here... it is a weird thing that this popped up here in the first place, and that so many people who neither knew about this, or knew about it very well without never thinking about it in dharmic terms, have seen it necessary to comment comment comment...


Buddha taught Lamrim, not Gossip.

Dear Zhalmed Pawo,
Thank you very much for your explanation. I am very interested to study more on what you mentioned in point 1 and 2. May I know what is the source or from where can I study more?

1. From a Dharmic point of view, I think when worldly affairs creep in, often there will be confusion on the student's side on what role the Lama actually 'plays'. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche said, that in each of the three yanas, the teacher has a different role. In the hinayana, he is the elder (Skt. Sthavira), or wise man. In the mahayana, he is the good spiritual friend (Skt. kalyanamitra). In the vajrayana, he is the master- almost a dictator- who tells us what to do. The relationship must be very strong, definite, and direct- one of great devotion. If a student's faith in the Guru is strong and with no agenda, then perhaps there won't be such issue of disagreeing with the Guru when it comes to even worldly matters I guess. If we trust our Guru for bigger things like the path to enlightenment, why do we have to disagree when it comes to enrolling people to protest (although I personally do not agree with the protest!)? Perhaps she really should have been removed because she was an unsuitable vessel for transmitting the ‘lineage’ of GKG as she doesn’t trust her Lama.

2. There will always be people who criticise or be against someone else, for example, there are people who are against GKG/NKT, there are people who are against His Holiness, there are people against Dorje Shugden etc.  In the case of Lucy James, we have arguments from NKT world (http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html) vs New Kadampa Truth (read reason 5 from http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/nathaniels-31-reasons-for-leaving-the-nkt/) etc.

I guess as Shugden practitioners, whether or not we personally pro or anti GKG/NKT or HHDL, that should not be the issue or our view when it comes to the forum. The forum is not about what we feel and try to get others to support our ‘cause' and position, but rather, a platform to dispel wrong views and encourage each other's practice & learning. So, I hope we can all work towards this aim.

I also agree with Helena’s point that there is a Lucy in all of us, and that is really a good point to contemplate on our devotion to our spiritual guide, and the REAL reason behind why we are ‘devoted’ to our spiritual guide.

[Helena]

Dear Dharmapal,

Thank you for your sharing. Again, I am sorry that we had to intrude on Lucy's privacy and have you divulge what you know in order to 'educate' us. Having said that, please know that you have done a great justice by this sharing. At least, more people know about Lucy now and how devoted she is to her Guru. That alone, is something more than redeeming (for the lack of a better word).

So, to be fair - although it sounded like crazy speculation proposed by TM with this thread. The ending is a good result. Lucy James has more people who knows better now - at the very least, from this Forum. Of course, not that Lucy needs any of us standing by her or understanding her situation. But more importantly, people would be more cautious about the nonsense that NKT World writes from here on. So, I think that is a very good thing.

Sometimes we get caught in something we don't like and may have had to endure some suffering in the process, but if the result brings greater good and understanding for the greater whole, then I think it has been a very beneficial process indeed.

In this respect, I do thank TM for bringing this up in the first place although many people got very unhappy about it. Perhaps, the language in we choose to communicate with each other could be much improved. At the end of the day, I am very happy to know that Lucy James is happy, doing her retreat and has her Guru's blessings. That's the most important thing - that she is well and happy.

Have a good day 
 

I take your points, Helena, and agree that we are works in progress when it comes to being good disciples. But for the record Lucy James herself has never spoken badly about her Spiritual Guide. She was asked to resign because the director of her center resigned because he thought that Geshe Kelsang was engaging in political behavior. She had apparently never said publicly that it was political behavior according to her other students, and had been at the demonstrations, but seemed to end up being a fall guy for whatever reason, karmic or otherwise. That reason is between her and Geshe Kelsang, who was most likely at least giving her food for deep thought, and Lucy herself seemed to take it as a teaching and stayed good humored throughout. Geshe Kelsang offered her the option to teach shortly afterward at a larger center, but at the time she was already doing some retreat and helping the NKT with various useful projects, or for her own reasons did not rush to take up that offer, which Geshe Kelsang accepted.  For the last year she has been enjoying a long retreat with Geshe Kelsang's blessings.

I am not going to write this all over the Internet as I don't think we should intrude on her privacy further (leave that to the anti-NKT sites); but as everyone has been speculating like crazy on this thread, I thought it might be helpful to give these additional details from what I understand of the situation. Thanks.

[triesa]

You know what I have learned in this thread ... "What happened to Lucy James?"

1) When we voice our comments, always think of how others feel.....
2) Present our comments or facts in a non-aggressive manner.... very important when we are posting our comments as there are many new people checking this website.
3) Be respectful to all forum members, refrain from calling each others by names.
4) It is our job as Dharma practitioners to promote peace and harmony, yes we can state the facts of the case, but we must strive not to stir up other unnecessary ill intentions.
5) Don't hold anger within oneself, it doesn't do any justice to oneself nor to the readers.
6) Have a bit of "Good" humour sometimes may be good when we are posting, especially when the tension is high.
7) Guru-disciples realtionship is a very personal matter, only those involved know the truth. In this case of Lucy James, after reading all the intensive sharings from all forum participants, my choice is that I respect both Lucy James & GKG.
Better not to mix politics in one's spiritual practise. Politics is an ineviatble product in this degenerated world. Just know it exists, be aware and try to stay away from it. Better put Dharma practise into actions that always benefit others.

Cheers,
Triesa

[theloneranger]

i also saw Lucy James at the one of the nkt festivals shortly after everything had happened.  Laughing and joking may i add! I can't remember which festival, seems such along time ago now. I just remember seeing her and rejoicing that she was still following Geshe-la and the tradition. 

[honeydakini]

i also saw Lucy James at the one of the nkt festivals shortly after everything had happened.  Laughing and joking may i add! I can't remember which festival, seems such along time ago now. I just remember seeing her and rejoicing that she was still following Geshe-la and the tradition. 

Wonderful news to rejoice in, thank you!
And goes to show, as ever, that we can never judge what is going on because there is so much between a teacher and disciple that remains sacred, known only to each other. Ultimately, our own samaya never lies and knows the "full story"
Thanks LoneRanger. I'm really very happy to hear that Lucy is doing well

[DSFriend]

i also saw Lucy James at the one of the nkt festivals shortly after everything had happened.  Laughing and joking may i add! I can't remember which festival, seems such along time ago now. I just remember seeing her and rejoicing that she was still following Geshe-la and the tradition. 

Good to hear though I'm now surprised...if Lucy James wanted to smear dirt on GKG's name, she could have long time ago.NKT is huge and with with any huge organization, there has bound to be some issues. However, I rather focus and rejoice in the good that GKG and NKT has brought about through the years.

[jessicajameson]

If Lucy is being used as a pawn and it could be so, why doesn't she speak up? Why doesn't she write the opposite or ask them to remove her name from their blogsite and any reference to her so she can't be used as pawn?

If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.

I think that when the news came out and it became wide-spread over the internet, Lucy James had three options:

1. To give a public statement (or to write an official reply via the Internet) denying everything, and in hopes, try to clarify any doubts which had affected her reputation.

2. Throw a little tantrum, denounce GKG as her guru, stop being part of NKT and 'lama-hop'/'center-hop' to somewhere which accepted her, and she could start of on a clean-slate again.

[ Sounds like something T.Canada would do...*smacks mouth closed* ]

3. Keep quiet and take it as part of her Dharma practice.

_________________________________________________________________________________


I think that for many of us, if someone was to say, "I heard that you did this and that at your center" or "I heard that you did this to your Lama *looks shamelessly at you*" - we would take it quite harshly and do everything and say anything to justify and defend ourselves.

We might feel picked upon and like how TM says, we might feel like we're 'being used as a pawn".

No one likes feeling victimized.

There are many times when someone has said something untrue, or blamed me for something that I had never done. My response has always been to continuously justify myself by denying everything and say, 'I didn't do it' or 'It wasn't me'. Even without saying anything, a little bit of anger arises in me, and I'm sure in all of us, it's really hard to control such a natural reaction.

How Lucy responded: by keeping quiet, continuously support her Lama and stay on as an NKT member and practitioner speaks SO much for herself. To feel like your reputation has been completely tarnished and to be publicly asked to resign as a teacher in your "spiritual home", mustn't feel too good. Imagine feeling ashamed and embarrassed that everyone gossips and talks about you over something that (perhaps) you hadn't done.

She didn't try to justify herself, she didn't try to defend herself, she didn't put up a fight and "ask them to remove her name from their blogsite and any reference to her so she can't be used as pawn". 

To me, she is exemplary of how a student should be in her reaction to her Gurus words and actions: don't put up a fight, accept it and take it as your Dharma practice. After all, who knows better: me (who has spent most of my life just doing things for me, myself and I) or your Guru (who has devoted his life and vowed to bring sentient beings out of suffering and onto the path to Enlightenment)?

[jessicajameson]

Below is something that DharmaDefender quoted on the "What can we DO??" (http://bit.ly/cWFsxs) forum topic.

I thought that I should share it because it complements what I was trying to convey in my post above:

Quote
If your Guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a Buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see many only be a reflection of your own deluded state of mind. Also, you should think that if your Guru acted in a completely perfect manner, he would be inaccessible and you would be unable to relate to him. It is therefore out of your Guru's great compassion that he may show apparent flaws. This is part of his use of skillful means in order for him to be able to teach you. He is mirroring your own faults; therefore check within and learn from him how to remove your shortcomings. If you are only intent on criticizing your Guru, you will never be able to benefit from him.



....there's gonna be a lot of my terrible, personal faults that my Guru will mirror!!    *braces for it!*

[triesa]

Below is something that DharmaDefender quoted on the "What can we DO??" (http://bit.ly/cWFsxs) forum topic.

I thought that I should share it because it complements what I was trying to convey in my post above:

Quote
If your Guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a Buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see many only be a reflection of your own deluded state of mind. Also, you should think that if your Guru acted in a completely perfect manner, he would be inaccessible and you would be unable to relate to him. It is therefore out of your Guru's great compassion that he may show apparent flaws. This is part of his use of skillful means in order for him to be able to teach you. He is mirroring your own faults; therefore check within and learn from him how to remove your shortcomings. If you are only intent on criticizing your Guru, you will never be able to benefit from him.



....there's gonna be a lot of my terrible, personal faults that my Guru will mirror!!    *braces for it!*

How true what Dharmadefender said and thank you Jessicajameson for bring this up. As a vajrayana practitioner, Guru devotion is of prime essence. What inspires me most in the Lucy James issue is that after all the rumours, gossips and criticisms, Lucy appeared and attended events in her own center. She chose to remain calm and silent without affirming or denying, I think that she is a REAL dharma practitioner. Her devotion to her Guru, GKG,is undeniable.

May I always be inspired by this and constantly practise whole heartedly the 50 stanzes of duru devotion!

Cheers,
Triesa

[pgdharma]

[/quote]
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.

Every Guru has his own methods to train his students. What GKG did could be a way of training Lucy James.  Anyway whatever has transpired  between them, is between them. I do not know about Lucy James until i read this thread, so it is not fair for me to comment much. However, I feel that Lucy is a good dharma practitioner in the sense that whatever had been said about her, she has kept quiet, has continued to support her Lama instead of bad mouthing him. I haven’t read anywhere of her talking bad against her Lama..

[Helena]

Absolutely correct, every Guru has his own methods for every student. Only the Guru and Disciple will know best. After all, it is designed by the Guru for that particular disciple. Not everyone is the same and would require the same methods. We all have different issues.

In any case, I am very happy to learn that Lucy James is well and happy.

[Vajraprotector]

The Lama is the terrifyingly compassionate gamester who reshuffles the deck of your carefully arranged rationale.
Ngak'chang Rinpoche, Wearing the Body of Visions


Thank you Helena for reminding me about the book, Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism .

I would like to quote a line from the book:  The student must maintain 'pure vision' - viewing the vajra master as continuously acting for the benefit of beings, and regarding all of his or her behavior as manifestations of unceasing enlightened activity. 

For Lucy James, she has to devote to GKG & trust GKG, because that is the Guru that she has chosen and he has accepted. It might seem worldly that GKG has asked Lucy James to send support for protests, but on the other hand, it is also a 'test' of devotion and trust. Who are we to say that "oh, it is just politics".

Thank you Lone ranger for sharing the info about Lucy James. I am happy to hear that Lucy is still practising under her Guru, showed that her faith has not been shaken. 


Also another article the original site that is said to defame NKT (NKTWorld: http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html)
" It seems Lucy James is trying to get back in good standing with GKG after he removed her as resident teacher. She is doing it by attacking anti-NKT web sites. She was editor for wikipedia. I have no doubt she is behind newkadampatruth.org . It seems Miss James is power hungry and will at all cost say and do anything to get her "throne" back. Let's hope she gets reinstated as RT."

I don't want to agree on the power hungry part, but good to read that she's still very much an integral part of her Guru's organisation and doing Dharma work.

I guess there's no way we can stop sites like NKT world that criticise a Buddhist organisation, in fact Kadampa has counter website like http://www.newkadampatruth.org/ to tell their version.

[thor]

Also another article the original site that is said to defame NKT (NKTWorld: http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html)
" It seems Lucy James is trying to get back in good standing with GKG after he removed her as resident teacher. She is doing it by attacking anti-NKT web sites. She was editor for wikipedia. I have no doubt she is behind newkadampatruth.org . It seems Miss James is power hungry and will at all cost say and do anything to get her "throne" back. Let's hope she gets reinstated as RT."

I don't want to agree on the power hungry part, but good to read that she's still very much an integral part of her Guru's organisation and doing Dharma work.

I guess there's no way we can stop sites like NKT world that criticise a Buddhist organisation, in fact Kadampa has counter website like http://www.newkadampatruth.org/ to tell their version.

I prefer to view Ms. James' actions as standing up for and defending her teacher, whom she has faith and unbroken samaya in. We are very quick to point fingers at those who are in a bad light, and use them to further our point of view and we fail to recognise or ignore their good actions to further our own agenda.

Enough said about Lucy James and this entire business methinks. NKTworld's main reason for existing, seems to be to criticise a buddhist organisation and a buddhist teacher - to cause a split in the sangha. We already hold vows to refrain from such actions. And whatever their basis is for setting up such a site, there is no reason good enough to cause harm to any ordained sangha member who is one of the three jewels.

I have heard it said that in the Kalachakra texts, there is a section which states that if one is unable to continue viewing our teacher as a Buddha, due to unfortunate circumstances beyond our control, then it is permissible to quietly take one's leave and seek out another teacher whom we are able to follow, WITHOUT defaming or speaking badly against our original teacher.

That makes sense to me. If we had gained insight and attainments from our original teacher, whom we viewed as a Buddha, and then some incident occurs that prevents us from holding that view however hard we try to, then continuing under the original teacher is futile as trust and faith is no longer possible from the side of the student. We should then seek a replacement teacher in order to continue our spiritual path. But refrain from defaming our original teacher - otherwise, everything gained under the first teacher would be destroyed.

[honeydakini]

I have heard it said that in the Kalachakra texts, there is a section which states that if one is unable to continue viewing our teacher as a Buddha, due to unfortunate circumstances beyond our control, then it is permissible to quietly take one's leave and seek out another teacher whom we are able to follow, WITHOUT defaming or speaking badly against our original teacher.

That makes sense to me. If we had gained insight and attainments from our original teacher, whom we viewed as a Buddha, and then some incident occurs that prevents us from holding that view however hard we try to, then continuing under the original teacher is futile as trust and faith is no longer possible from the side of the student. We should then seek a replacement teacher in order to continue our spiritual path. But refrain from defaming our original teacher - otherwise, everything gained under the first teacher would be destroyed.

Dulzin, Thank you for sharing this. I am also reminded of the very clear example of the Dalai Lama's relationship with his first teacher, Reting Rinpoche.

In this case, his own lama was sent to jail and executed for being involved in some political scheme. But at the same time, he was still the Dalai Lama's guru. The Dalai Lama would say that although his Guru would be in a jail downstairs, he continued to see Reting Rinpoche as his Guru during his meditations. He would meditate upon the kindness of Reting Rinpoche - who had been his first teacher, given him his vows, gone to search for his incarnation and brought him up when he was still young.

It is a very inspiring and apt example - that we can choose to let our minds be overcome by our doubts that forsake our teachers, or, as it states in the texts, to just leave quietly, without a lot of fanfare, and continue to hold a pure view of our teacher and our practice. Most importantly, is to not begin talking, criticising and bashing our Lama who we may feel has "done wrong" because it has a potentially very harmful effect on many of his other students. They may not be as discerning and may give up their practice and relationship with their teacher altogether. See, it's not just about our personal relationship with our teacher, but also how that very relationship can inspire or totally damage the guru-disciple relationship of an entire Dharma community around us.