Is Geshe Kelsang A Geshe?

[Helena]

Titles and certifications are useful and helpful when we are trying to check for validation on someone's actual capabilities and qualifications for a certain job.

For a doctor - obviously, there needs to be a medical cert to qualify him to be a doctor and no one, I dare say, would allow a non-certified doctor to perform surgery on him or her. Even with a certified doctor, we would still investigate and make our own research into which doctor is good for what. So, we ask questions and interview ex-patients or existing patients of the doctor. Hence, only then we can decide which doctor we would consult for whatever we need.

No one would go blindly to see a doctor and without prior investigation. Most likely, we would heed our friends and families' recommendations on which doctor to consult for specific ailments.

This is especially more important for a newbie or someone who is interested to finding out more and is just learning.

It is always good to discuss and learn more so that we can clarify mis-information and mis-interpretation of facts, and misunderstandings. However, the manner in which we do all of the above must reflect our Dharma practice. Otherwise, how can we ever say that we have improved at all, or have even benefited from the Dharma? Especially, when our behaviour after learning Dharma is no different than our behaviour before the Dharma?

I am sure there are always better ways to present facts, points of views and conduct discussions without putting down anyone. I am certain there are always better ways to show how your Dharma practice has made you into a better person. And if we can't even do it in here, then we can't definitely do it anywhere else.

Hence, a newbie will not even be impressed with Dharma, if the way we attack one another is a sample of what Dharma brings or teaches.

There is always a better way. I am sure that is why we learn the Dharma in the first place.

[crazycloud]

Both Big Uncle & Honeydakini have raised interesting points.

I had not thought about how much damage HHDL is actually doing to his reputation and image by enforcing the ban on DS in the manner that he has done so. In fact, come to think of it, this whole issue is destroying everything that he has achieved over the years. Because now, there are more people questioning where is the Nobel Peace Prize Winner in HHDL? Some people are viewing HHDL as more of a tyrant and dictator because of this issue and this is certainly something that would not be of an advantage, if HHDL is wanting to clamour for more power and popularity.

What's more - the division and dissension are happening both within the Tibetan community and outside of it.

So, the question is WHY would HHDL take on such high risks, full knowing what it will do to him?

This is something we should all contemplate on.

If the Dalai Lama does not repudiate Dorje Shugden, The other three Tibetan Schools will not be content to be represented by him. Tibetan society will fall apart, or change into something unrecognizable. This political lama thought he could extinguish the lineage of his teacher and through samaya, politics and signatuire compaign, he thought everyone would just roll over.

now he is learning what I imagine must be a painful lesson.

[kurava]

I believe what Dharmapal wrote here is pretty authoritative. The forewords by H.H. KyabjeTrijang and H.H Yongzin Ling to GKG's books says it all.
Whether there is a formal recognition or other red tapes associated with such an award I think is not so  important in the context of GKG's knowledge and  scholastic abilities. - at least for those who have read and benefitted from his writings.
I also agree w Samayatree's view to ensure there is no abuse or falsehood.
 I think  GKG,  has been around long enough to overcome any doubts as to his qualities. In the end , its up to the public whether the issue of proper certification/ degree is serious enough to have a negative influence  on those following him or those who intend to do so.

[Thomas David Canada]

. "If that's the case all sentient beings are Rinpoches also." As you say and as Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche stated. It matters not your station or status. If you are not Practicing the Dharma. You are not anything...........

[Yeshe]

Returning to the topic, I read or watched HHDL explain that when he took part in the debating examination for his own Geshe degree he would have lost if his tutor not declared the debate over.

I'm guessing that whilst it would be unthinkable for a Dalai lama to fail such a test, some deemed it unthinkable for the pariah Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to be considered worthy of the title.

The problem with those who deny it to him is that having referred to him as a Geshe, they then had to strip him of it, making their case that he never achieved it look ridiculous.

And as I wrote earlier, a great Lama, Spiritual Guide and Tantric Master does not need the title of Geshe at all.

It's a bit like seeking to destroy the reputation of the space shuttle commander by saying that he failed his car driving test.

[thaimonk]

I posted this thread with this question:

Is Geshe Kelsang a Geshe as awarded the Degree from Sera, Drepung or Gaden? 

I am not questioning if he is qualified.

[WisdomBeing]

Geshe Kelsang is a Geshe.

In the colophon to Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer written by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche himself (available from Tharpa Publications free of charge), it says:

"This brief prayer for the long life of the Tsang-pa Geshe, Kelsang Gyatso, of Sera-Je Monastery, who is endowed with great learning and immaculate pure conduct, was composed by Yongdzin Trijang Dorjechang at the request of the community at Manjushri Centre, England."

In the foreword to Geshe Kelsang’s book Meaningful to Behold, Venerable Trijang Rinpoche says:

The excellent expounder, the great Spiritual Master Kelsang Gyatso, who studied myriad Buddhist scriptures at the famous Je College of the great monastic university of Sera Tegchen Ling, practised the meaning of the teachings he received, and became a wise, serious and realized Teacher.

Geshe Kelsang says:

“My true situation is that in Tibet I studied Geshe training for many years in my local monastery called Jampa Ling and Tashi Lhunpo university and I passed two examinations. One examination was in memorization and the other was the actual examination. Soon after that, people would publicly call me “Geshe”.

Later in Tibet I joined Sera Je monastery and I studied Geshe training further. In India I mainly emphasized retreat for meditation purposes. When I was living on a high mountain called Dalhousie I received a letter from Sera Je monastery. The letter encouraged me to go to Sera for an examination. Because I had heard that the method or system for examinations was newly created, I did not accept this new system.

However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe.

Generally for anyone to become a real Geshe it is not necessary that the Dalai Lamas recognize them as a Geshe. Before the Dalai Lamas, so many pure and real Geshes appeared such as Geshe Potowa, Geshe Jayulwa, Geshe Langri Tangpa, Geshe Sharawa, Geshe Chekawa and so forth. These Kadampa Geshes have no connection with the Dalai Lama. I have no connection with the Dalai Lama but I still believe that I am a Geshe.

Please give a copy of this information to people if they request it. Thank you.”

Geshe Kelsang's qualities are extolled in the prefaces of some of his books by high Lamas, including Venerable Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche, who were the lineage holders of the Gelugpa tradition.

In the foreword to Geshe Kelsang's book, Clear Light of Bliss, Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche says:

This excellent commentary on the joyous Mahamudra
Derived from churning the essence of the ocean of Tantric scriptures
That arose from the heart of this most precious Spiritual Guide
Is published with a pure wish to benefit migrators.

In the prayer he composed "for the long life of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso", Trijang Rinpoche says:

You who are skilled in the wisdom that unties the sealed knots
Of the profound meaning of the Sutras and Tantras of the Fourth Deliverer of this fortunate aeon,
Who possess an abundance of good qualities like a thousand-petalled lotus,
O peerless, great Spiritual Guide, may you live for a very long time.

The holy Dharma, a treasury of jewels that is difficult to find for many aeons,
Is borne forth on the chariot of your excellent, superior intention;
O Protector who destroy the samsaric miseries of vast numbers of disciples,
Great Knowledge Hero arisen from an ocean (of wisdom), may you live for a very long time.

In his foreword to Geshe Kelsang's Buddhism in the Tibetan Tradition, published by Routledge and Kegan Paul in 1984, even the 14th Dalai Lama addressed Geshe Kelsang Gyatso by his correct title.

"Very often people who are interested in studying Tibetan Buddhism are dissuaded from doing so because they cannot always find books that are written in a way that they can easily follow... I am therefore happy that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has attempted to present the basic teachings of Lord Buddha in a manner that people can relate to and put them into practice in their daily lives. I would like to thank the translator and editors for their efforts." H.H. The Dalai Lama (signed and sealed).

See also the refutation of the smear that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was expelled from his monastery.

This is taken from the www.newkadampatruth.org site, well worth a visit if you have not already seen it.

so it appears that several high lamas like HH Ling Rinpoche and HH Trijang Rinpoche recognises GKG as a Geshe.

GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."

I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?

I am not sure of the protocol of Geshe-ship? Does the Dalai Lama have to recognise you as a Geshe in order to be a Geshe?

If one became a Geshe at a monastery and then subsequently excommunicated from that monastery, can one still hold onto the title?

By the way, I don't see this question from Thaimonk as being critical of GKG. I also respect GKG very much but i'm curious about this point, which if cleared up, would let me answer others better too. I personally don't think GKG NEEDS a title of Geshe or Rinpoche or Tulku because he is so very learned and knowledgeable and his results really speak a thousand words. But there are also others who see this issue as very important so it'd be good to know what the situation really is.

[Yeshe]

Both Big Uncle & Honeydakini have raised interesting points.

I had not thought about how much damage HHDL is actually doing to his reputation and image by enforcing the ban on DS in the manner that he has done so. In fact, come to think of it, this whole issue is destroying everything that he has achieved over the years. Because now, there are more people questioning where is the Nobel Peace Prize Winner in HHDL? Some people are viewing HHDL as more of a tyrant and dictator because of this issue and this is certainly something that would not be of an advantage, if HHDL is wanting to clamour for more power and popularity.

What's more - the division and dissension are happening both within the Tibetan community and outside of it.

So, the question is WHY would HHDL take on such high risks, full knowing what it will do to him?

This is something we should all contemplate on.

Yes, we know all this. It seems whatever the thread topic is, the same off-topic stuff creeps in.  It's a shame, especially on a forum where most members will know quite a lot about the ban, but may know little of the other topics which seem to get derailed here.

[Helena]

Dear Yeshe,

I do not intend to derail any topic of any thread. I was addressing Big Uncle &HD's points in their posts. In any case, let us not digress any more than necessary. It is not worth to repeat. Hence, I shall write better to make myself more clearly understood next time.

Dear Trinley Kalsang, I do not think that TM starting this thread is in any way wrong. In fact, it is thanks to him for raising these issues about GKG. I do not see it as in any bad disparaging. You have taken my quote and put it into another context. What I mean in the quote you have taken out was the way in which members 'speak' to one another in this Forum. As seen in this thread alone. I asked for compassion and civility towards one another in this Forum.

I believe if no one cares to explain then someone who is unaware reading the information out there would be inclined to believe that GKG is not qualified to teach etc. I myself do not know much about GKG, but having started reading and following this thread, I will not be so inclined to believe the 'rubbish' that is written about this great Lama, GKG.

What's more, I would be able to even offer some explanation to those who may not know, if I were to come across such a situation, that is. And I can do this now because of the points raised in this thread. Looking at GKG's achievements, alone is suffice to say that he has done great things.

Then again, we can say the same for HHDL, isn't it? 

Hence, in this respect, I believe what TM is asking is sincere and helps in promoting more understanding. In this way, with more knowledge that we have gathered in here, we can also help clarify further to anyone who wishes to know more. How is this a bad thing?

I only wished that we could have less unpleasant remarks made about one another. That was the point of my comments.

I am not siding anyone here. I am sharing my observations from reading what each of you have written over the many different threads. Not just here.

Anyways, I am personally glad that some difficult issues can be addressed and hopefully, it can be discussed in a more positive way that allows answers and clarity to surface. Then others reading will also learn more and not judge as easily.

Thank you all for your kind patience and for taking the time to actually explain, clarify and share.

[shugdenprotect]

I agree with Triesa that whether or not GKG is a Geshe is not of pivotal importance. It seems like too much effort is put into defining titles etc. This is, once again, so much like the bickering of the secular world where holding a Phd. Certificate from which school, what job title is which company defines a person’s value.

In the spiritual sense, I believe that what is more important is the contribution that GKG has made towards turning the wheel of Dharma to benefit sentient beings. And in this matter, GKG has done a great “job”.

I have been blessed to read some of GKG’s books and I found them so easy to understand. Simply put: I love them and I believe that there are many individuals out there who developed clearer understanding about Dharma after reading these materials.

Another matter that made an impression is how similar these writing are to other thread in relation to H.H the 14th Dalai Lama and his ban on Dorje Shugden.  Only this time, the name is different, i.e. 1) instead of Dalai Lama this and Dalai Lama that, it is GKG this and GKG that and 2) instead of the removal of Dorje Shugden and Trijang Rinpoce images, it is the removal of Dalai Lama images here. It is kind of like a replay of the same drama with different characters.

Perhaps all great individuals who stand against the flow will have to face such controversy and criticism. Perhaps it is because they are great that they will find the compassion and wisdom to forgive our lack of gratitude. Maybe all these events are intertwined for us to practice Dharma.

If we can view these great masters who have given us so much with understanding and acceptance (I dare not say compassion and wisdom yet), we will be able to practice the same virtues with those around us. With that as a stepping-stone, our lives and those around us will get happier and more peaceful. And I believe that this is the purpose of Dharma.

[Helena]

Well said, Shugden Protect! Well said!

I agree with Triesa that whether or not GKG is a Geshe is not of pivotal importance. It seems like too much effort is put into defining titles etc. This is, once again, so much like the bickering of the secular world where holding a Phd. Certificate from which school, what job title is which company defines a person’s value.

In the spiritual sense, I believe that what is more important is the contribution that GKG has made towards turning the wheel of Dharma to benefit sentient beings. And in this matter, GKG has done a great “job”.

I have been blessed to read some of GKG’s books and I found them so easy to understand. Simply put: I love them and I believe that there are many individuals out there who developed clearer understanding about Dharma after reading these materials.

Another matter that made an impression is how similar these writing are to other thread in relation to H.H the 14th Dalai Lama and his ban on Dorje Shugden.  Only this time, the name is different, i.e. 1) instead of Dalai Lama this and Dalai Lama that, it is GKG this and GKG that and 2) instead of the removal of Dorje Shugden and Trijang Rinpoce images, it is the removal of Dalai Lama images here. It is kind of like a replay of the same drama with different characters.

Perhaps all great individuals who stand against the flow will have to face such controversy and criticism. Perhaps it is because they are great that they will find the compassion and wisdom to forgive our lack of gratitude. Maybe all these events are intertwined for us to practice Dharma.

If we can view these great masters who have given us so much with understanding and acceptance (I dare not say compassion and wisdom yet), we will be able to practice the same virtues with those around us. With that as a stepping-stone, our lives and those around us will get happier and more peaceful. And I believe that this is the purpose of Dharma.

[LosangKhyentse]

Whatever damage the ban has done to the reputation of the Dalai lama is now forgotten or minimal.

He is still travelling non-stop, the govt leaders that have been meeting up with him are still meeting with him, the Indian Govt has done nothing re the court case. Dalai Lama is very powerful. He is still talking openly against Shugden at most public gatherings. He outlived the protests and court cases. The thing we can do is to make our Dorje Shugden practices very strong by:

1. Having more centres that practice and promote Shugden

2. Making sure shar gaden and serpom 'make' it ( we must advert them, facebook, tweet them and financially support them)

3. Supporting financially all those who support Serpom and Shar Gaden

4. Raising the status of our Dorje Shugden Tulkus whose names are already well known (they are proof positive practicing shugden does not lead you to lower realms since they are back). Tulkus are very important. The continuation of their names throughout history makes impact.

5. Bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice-easier to convince-hence brochures

6. Making websites/forums like this a 'hive' of activity where everyone can log on for information and resources


As the Dalai Lama has just a few years left (sorry), the Shugden movement can and will become bigger as many advices by Dalai Lama will be eventually forgotten. 5th Dalai Lama closing down Kagyupa Monasteries is barely remembered today.

After the Dalai Lama has passed, all the famous Shugden Tulkus can teach, and spread the practice without any interferences or minimal. No other Gelug lama can take the place of Dalai Lama as secular/spiritual leader of all Tibetans. No non-Gelug Lama can do so either. If any non-Gelug Lamas after Dalai Lama start talking against Dorje Shugden, he can be finger-pointed as sectarian.

Hence these days you had Sakya Trizin 'condemning' Shugden. Who listens? You had Dudjom condemning, who listened? Dilgo Kyentse nor Karmapa says anything against Dorje Shugden. Karmapa previous incarnation did not criticize nor both of the current karmapas. Dilgo Kyentse never spoke anything at least publicly against Dorje Shugden. I must say, Dilgo Kyentse whom I met, was an extraordinary individual with tremendous energy of compassion you can feel when you are in his presence. Drigung Kyabgon and Drukchen Rinpoches are silent on the Shugden issue. Kalu Rinpoche as far as I know mentioned nothing publicly. After the Dalai lama is gone, no one will listen to Gaden Tripa as no one listens to them now anyway. Dalai Lama never gave a chance for the Gaden Tripas to play their role in full. But the great Tulkus of the Gelug lineage are either admired or despised around the world because of the Dalai Lama. But either way, the Gelug Tulkus are known. Their reputations can be turned from 'bad' to good after the passing of Dalai Lama.

Constant rude writings and hate filled comments re the Dalai Lama will make this website a turn off the thousands who know nothing of what the Dalai Lama has done. When we write, we cannot write FOR OURSELVES. We have to write clearly, level headed, and even handedly to make our writings more 'neutral' to new people who come to this forum. Our writings must portray a even non-biased information for the reader to contemplate and think about when they go away. When it is one sided and filled with hate, it automatically makes people not want to read what the 'fanatics' have written. You may love Shugden, promote Shugden and sing the praises of Shugden as much as you want WITHOUT RUDE/HATE COMMENTS ABOUT THE DALAI LAMA.

Hence I like the Mission Statement of this website. Everyone presents this information without EXCLUDING THE OTHER SIDE completely. The 'other side' may be wrong, but in debate, the purpose is not to make them wrong by rudeness, but by wisdom, knowledge, information, facts and let them think it out. It is to win your 'opponent' by skill of your knowledge and presentation.

We must make platforms like this website accessible and readable to the greater many that visit for knowledge and information so they can on their own free time, digest. Therefore even handed information without unpleasantness is very important. This platform is not just for us. There are many more who are involved than just us. We can change their minds, their lives and their views for the positive with our words.

TK

[Helena]

Thank you very much, TK for taking the time and writing this very valuable sharing.

I especially appreciate your words that " we cannot write for ourselves". That is very true because there are so many others who would read everything in this forum and we should be concerned about how their minds would be like after reading everything.

Thank you for putting everything so eloquently.

The reason I come into this Forum is to also learn and dispel my own doubts or confusion on subjects that are beyond my reach, so to speak. And in learning more, I can even explain to others more. That makes me feel more useful than my being at my 9 to 5 job, to be honest. Because if I have clarified something for someone in their mind about DS or anything spiritual, then I feel that I have done something truly beneficial that is beyond this lifetime.

Have a good day, everyone.

[honeydakini]

GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."

I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?

From what I understand, making Geshe offerings at the monastery does not mean you are a Geshe. Anyone can make Geshe offerings throughout the course of their study - just because you have made the offering, it does not mean that you are a Geshe. There are even some monks who make this offering but don't go on to study for or become Geshes. This is not part of the validation process.

Also, whenever anyone makes any offerings to the monastery, they receive in turn a khata as a blessing from the sangha. So it isn't that clear what this means by a getting a khata to indicate he is a Geshe.

I don't mean this as any disrespect to GKG - But just sharing some general information that I have learnt; can be useful for us to know as a future reference.

[triesa]

GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."

I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?

From what I understand, making Geshe offerings at the monastery does not mean you are a Geshe. Anyone can make Geshe offerings throughout the course of their study - just because you have made the offering, it does not mean that you are a Geshe. There are even some monks who make this offering but don't go on to study for or become Geshes. This is not part of the validation process.

Also, whenever anyone makes any offerings to the monastery, they receive in turn a khata as a blessing from the sangha. So it isn't that clear what this means by a getting a khata to indicate he is a Geshe.

I don't mean this as any disrespect to GKG - But just sharing some general information that I have learnt; can be useful for us to know as a future reference.

So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread? Is there anyone out there who have knowledge of how a Geshe title is being awarded in the Monestary? I am just thinking, for example, how many years they have to study, and how many examinations or debates they have to go through before a Geshe title is awarded. In other words, the whole process involved.

Triesa.