Is Geshe Kelsang A Geshe?

[Lone Hermit]

So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread? Is there anyone out there who have knowledge of how a Geshe title is being awarded in the Monestary? I am just thinking, for example, how many years they have to study, and how many examinations or debates they have to go through before a Geshe title is awarded. In other words, the whole process involved.

Triesa.

Yes that's correct he's not really a Geshe but it doesn't mean he hasn't studied the same texts as a real Geshe so his knowledge might be just as good or even better. It's probably a bit deceptive to use the title but there are many levels of Geshe, even honorary ones so all in all it might not matter. More unfortunate is the fact that he was expelled from his monastery. The following letter provides an interesting insight into monastic politics although I don't know if it's an accurate reflection of GKG's character.

http://info-buddhismus.de/200514.pdf

[zamzam24388]

Quoted by Triesa : So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread?

Just like colleges/universities all over the world, there are records of students who have passed their respective examinations and I am sure that Sera, Drepung and Gaden also have their own records.  If anyone who is only interested to know if GKG has this Geshe degree should contact them for confirmation.

But then again, has not GKG's students benefitted from his teachings?

[Carpenter]

regarding of the title Is Geshe Kelsang a Geshe?
- isn't a geshe earned its title from a monastery through all tests and exams?? If so, aren't they a Geshe?

As for what i've read, Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a fully accomplished meditation master and internationally renowned teacher of Buddhism.

From the age of eight Geshe-la studied extensively in the great monastic universities of Tibet and earned the title ‘Geshe’, which literally means ‘spiritual friend’. Under the guidance of his Spiritual Guide, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, he then spent the next eighteen years in meditation retreats in the Himalayas.


I agree with what shugdenprotect said

whether or not GKG is a Geshe is not of pivotal importance. It seems like too much effort is put into defining titles etc. This is, once again, so much like the bickering of the secular world where holding a Phd. Certificate from which school, what job title is which company defines a person’s value.

In the spiritual sense, I believe that what is more important is the contribution that GKG has made towards turning the wheel of Dharma to benefit sentient beings. And in this matter, GKG has done a great “job”.

most important is what they have done in spreading dharma and how many people been benefited vs his title. Dharma is in our heart not in titles, don't you agree?

 

[icy]

Thank you TK for your valuable and logic contribution to this forum.  You certainly remind us where we should stand.   You bring us back on track and focus what we have to do.  Your advice is definitely of a huge benefit to many of us.
Whether GKG is a geshe is not an issue any more.  A Geshe is merely a certification of his education in this samsaric world.  What is more important is his realization and attainment in his mind stream.  If we are not on the level to judge a higher attained being we can derive his qualities by using logic and contemplating on his beneficial activities - he has benefitted vast number of people around the world.  His books are of excellent clarity, and precision have benefitted many.   Trustworthy authoritarian and most eminent masters in the world have vouched on GTG’s qualities and his attainments.  HENCE, is there still doubt on Geshe Kelsang Gaytso’s qualification???
As mentioned by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche,  the meaning of the teachings GTG received is practised and became a wise, serious and realized Teacher.   Even Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche said GTG’s book entitled “Clear Light of Bliss” is a commentary  “derived from churning the essence of the ocean of Tantric scriptures” with a pure wish to benefit sentient beings. 
What else?...  GTG is an accomplished sutric and tantric master as indicated in the prayer Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche composed "for the long life of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso":
“You who are skilled in the wisdom that unties the sealed knots
Of the profound meaning of the Sutras and Tantras of the Fourth Deliverer of this fortunate aeon,
Who possess an abundance of good qualities like a thousand-petalled lotus,
O peerless, great Spiritual Guide, may you live for a very long time.

The holy Dharma, a treasury of jewels that is difficult to find for many aeons,
Is borne forth on the chariot of your excellent, superior intention;
O Protector who destroy the samsaric miseries of vast numbers of disciples,
Great Knowledge Hero arisen from an ocean (of wisdom), may you live for a very long time.”

Well, GTG is in fact a overly qualified Geshe.

[hope rainbow]

Is GKG a Geshe or not?
The answer to this question tells us very little about his qualities as a teacher, or even his realizations.

What I prefer to look at is:

1. the lineage in which he takes place is by any standard outstanding
-Trijang Rinpoche, HH The 14th Dalai Lama, Pabonkha Rinpoche, Dagpo Rinpoche, all the way to Je Rinpoche, Atisha, and eventually to Buddha Shakyamuni! WOW!

2. The quality of the translation of teachings that he has published and that have benefitted so many is truly extraordinary. Truly remarkable, Geshe degree or not.

3. His skillful means to bring the dharma to places where it was non-existent or weak. I don't know many people who would give so much in order to reach out to so many. When I see what is sometimes said of him, I think he must be very brave and his motivation can only be pure and sincere (otherwise why would he do all this?)

4. The growth of KNT is extraordinary. Would Dorje Shugden, THE protector of the Gelug teachings be so helpful to a Dharma center that does not have the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa at his heart?

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my teacher, but if circumstances would have made that I was to be his student, I would feel extremely fortunate.

 

[Helena]

I like what Hope Rainbow said.

In fact, the great late Lama Yeshe was never a Geshe and yet we can see how much he has achieved. In fact, Lama Yeshe always made fun about how he did not want to get a Geshe degree and be called Geshe Yeshe. I read that from one of his bio.

It is true that a title may not necessarily make you a great teacher, but it may get you the respect because you have indeed worked very hard for that qualification and have earned that title. But whether you are good at the role can only be measured by the results of your actual effort/work. And in terms of spirituality, I guess, we usually measure the success of a Guru by the behaviour of his students and the size/no. of their centers. This is of course, a very generalised yardstick.

I think to really answer Thai Monk's answer if Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is really a Geshe - I think if all his monasteries have publicly denounced him and stripped him of all his titles and his titles are from there, then, technically, GKG may not have the titles anymore. However, it does not change the fact that GKG under-studied all the great Gurus and have extensive knowledge and experience. The removal of his title from whoever, can never remove his wisdom and compassion.

I guess, what I am trying to say here is organizations, companies and monasteries can remove anything external from us - i.e. titles, jobs, positions and even power - but they cannot remove the years of experience, knowledge and our innate qualifications.

No one can remove the dharma that is already transmitted to us from our own Gurus. That stays embedded within us, and grows when we enrich ourselves further.

Which is clearly seen in the case of GKG and Lucy James...they both remain teacher and disciples. That in itself speaks volumes. NKT is one of the largest dharma organizations in the West. That also speaks volumes.


 

[icy]

Is GKG a Geshe or not?
The answer to this question tells us very little about his qualities as a teacher, or even his realizations.

What I prefer to look at is:

1. the lineage in which he takes place is by any standard outstanding
-Trijang Rinpoche, HH The 14th Dalai Lama, Pabonkha Rinpoche, Dagpo Rinpoche, all the way to Je Rinpoche, Atisha, and eventually to Buddha Shakyamuni! WOW!

2. The quality of the translation of teachings that he has published and that have benefitted so many is truly extraordinary. Truly remarkable, Geshe degree or not.

3. His skillful means to bring the dharma to places where it was non-existent or weak. I don't know many people who would give so much in order to reach out to so many. When I see what is sometimes said of him, I think he must be very brave and his motivation can only be pure and sincere (otherwise why would he do all this?)

4. The growth of KNT is extraordinary. Would Dorje Shugden, THE protector of the Gelug teachings be so helpful to a Dharma center that does not have the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa at his heart?

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my teacher, but if circumstances would have made that I was to be his student, I would feel extremely fortunate.

 

I absolutely agree with HR.  Titles can be removed but the innate quality of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso cannot be removed.  This is a fact.  The innate quality and qualification of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso remains and no one absoutely no one whosoever can refute this or take this away from him.   

[Zhalmed Pawo]

As I recall, GKG once mentioned that there was the old Tibetan way, and the new Diaspora way, in these monasteries. So that would mean, that the current generation of geshes - current to GKG that is - are gesheized in either of these two ways. The actual content of the studies and so forth remained the same, but there were some differences as to the "gesheization ceremonies". Why this change happened, I do not know. Maybe the diaspora monasteries wanted to solidify themselves, or maybe they loaned some Indian University gadgetries to get some kind of universal acceptance... who knows.

Nevertheless, many "old timers" did, so I have been told (reliable source, I am, thereby), pass the new system of gesheization. Especially those, who were residing in the West. Why spend money for air-tickets and new monetarywise costume-plays, as these were just recent additions, in Diaspora?

So, by GKG:s own admission, he is a Geshe by the old system, but never took the new diasporic gesheization.  He therefore both is and is not a Geshe, depending on what academic costumizing system you follow.

I might, of course, remember this all wrong. So take this with a grain of salt. Do not take this as a Tulku Arising -type of post.

[Helena]

Thank you, ZP for sharing in a way that promotes learning and understanding.

I sincerely appreciate the tone and manner in which you have posted about GKG.

When there are no "emotional overtones" in the words/speech - I can hear the real message loud and clear.

Though you maintain that you could be wrong, that is already helpful enough to caution readers to think for themselves.
Unlike some who write with the deliberate intention of imposing their points of views unto others.

In any case, I never believed that we can force anyone to think like us or feel the same way as us, it is for them to discover what everything means to them and make that connection. Every mind is different and unique. Until something clicks and that light bulb goes off in their minds, they will not see the light. Hence, may be this is why the spiritual path is a journey. We go onto a journey of self discovery as well as discovering how we relate to all around us, and vice versa.

If it was so easy to make everyone think the same and feel the same, and everyone digests information in the same way and can accept how those information are delivered, then we all don't need 'personalized and customised' information delivery methods. If this were true, our Gurus would have a much easier job. Then, all the great Gurus in the world  would automatically produce excellent students like a factory assembly line, within a specified time frame.

As it is not so, then we have to learn to be patient and compassionate with one another, as our Guru has always been with all of us.

Here's to more Geshes - both titled or un-titled! At the v=very least, they are making a real difference in the world!

[pgdharma]

GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."

I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?

From what I understand, making Geshe offerings at the monastery does not mean you are a Geshe. Anyone can make Geshe offerings throughout the course of their study - just because you have made the offering, it does not mean that you are a Geshe. There are even some monks who make this offering but don't go on to study for or become Geshes. This is not part of the validation process.

Also, whenever anyone makes any offerings to the monastery, they receive in turn a khata as a blessing from the sangha. So it isn't that clear what this means by a getting a khata to indicate he is a Geshe.

I don't mean this as any disrespect to GKG - But just sharing some general information that I have learnt; can be useful for us to know as a future reference.

So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread? Is there anyone out there who have knowledge of how a Geshe title is being awarded in the Monestary? I am just thinking, for example, how many years they have to study, and how many examinations or debates they have to go through before a Geshe title is awarded. In other words, the whole process involved.

Triesa.

Whether Geshe Kelsang is a geshe or not, it does not really matter. There are so many of his books that have brought tremendous benefits and also touched the lives of others. And with the many centers all over the world, Geshe Kelsang has created a big imprint on people’s lives by bringing dharma to them.

[thaimonk]

So after much debate, it seems Geshe Kelsang has never recieved the Geshe Degree from his monastery even way before the Shugden conflict.

He didn't recieve the Geshe Degree in Tibet nor in India.
He never finished his final exams.
He has the knowledge of a Geshe but not the ACTUAL certification?
So by right, he should not be called a Geshe?

You may have studied in Harvard to the point of your Phd exams and your just as good as another Phd holder, but if you don't go for your exams and leave, whether it's under the new system or old, can you be called a Phd holder or addressed as Dr or so and so is a Phd?


Again, I am not addressing Geshe-la's character, knowledge or Qualifications as a spiritual master.

[Yeshe]

So after much debate, it seems Geshe Kelsang has never recieved the Geshe Degree from his monastery even way before the Shugden conflict.

He didn't recieve the Geshe Degree in Tibet nor in India.
He never finished his final exams.
He has the knowledge of a Geshe but not the ACTUAL certification?
So by right, he should not be called a Geshe?

You may have studied in Harvard to the point of your Phd exams and your just as good as another Phd holder, but if you don't go for your exams and leave, whether it's under the new system or old, can you be called a Phd holder or addressed as Dr or so and so is a Phd?


Again, I am not addressing Geshe-la's character, knowledge or Qualifications as a spiritual master.

I think you've had a good spread of views already, but seem to be seeking more.

The reality is that GKG was called a Geshe by HHDL and others and praised as such. So in terms of their 'reality' he is a Geshe.  As for the exam, I have read that quite a few Geshes never completed their formal final exams, but they also are called Geshe.  GKG has no need of the title as he could very easily call himself Lama instead, as others have done.  As head of a non-Tibetan oprganisation he could also call himself 'Pope Kadam' if he fancied. LOL

To use your analogy, imagine if you studied for the PhD, then at the point of examination, Harvard decided to change the exam completely.  Meanwhile you had already secured a good future without that final qualification, so you moved on.

Now you remember that GKG has consistently been critical of the changes the Gelugpa have made to their practices.  They changed the Geshe examination system, and characteristically GKG rebelled and refused to take the changed Geshe examination.  The Gelugpa have continued to move further away from their own tradition through the Shugden ban.

At one time, when I taught martial arts classes I had not yet achieved the level at which I could be called 'Sensei' yet students referred to me in that way, however often I corrected them. In the same way, if GKG's contemporaries and masters called him Geshe, what difference would it make if they arrived at that same conclusion by judging his debating or memorising skills in another situation.

Of course, we could always introduce the elephant in the room here.  LOL

Some assert that the wrong person was chosen to be the current Dalai Lama when the tests were conducted on children to identify the rightful heir to that role. If this was proven to be true, do you imagine anyone would stop calling the incumbent 'Dalai Lama'?   He is Dalai Lama because others regard him as such, and have faith in him in that role.

It's exactly the same for GKG - he is regarded as a Geshe and everyone from the Dalai Lama down has expressed faith in him in that role.

So whatever the answer to your question may be, it really doesn't matter!

[thaimonk]

So whatever the answer to your question may be, it really doesn't matter!

If it doesn't matter than everyone from Sera, Drepung and Gaden who has studied may call themselves a Geshe and forget the exams. If he was awarded the Geshe before the exams changed, then he is still a Geshe. But if he has never taken the exam before or after the examination systems changed, then he is not titled a Geshe?

A doctor of 60 years ago would not be able to pass the examinations of a exam for today's doctor. But he is still a doctor as he passed the exam of 60 years ago.

 

[Yeshe]

So whatever the answer to your question may be, it really doesn't matter!

If it doesn't matter than everyone from Sera, Drepung and Gaden who has studied may call themselves a Geshe and forget the exams. If he was awarded the Geshe before the exams changed, then he is still a Geshe. But if he has never taken the exam before or after the examination systems changed, then he is not titled a Geshe?

A doctor of 60 years ago would not be able to pass the examinations of a exam for today's doctor. But he is still a doctor as he passed the exam of 60 years ago.

 

Ok.  I'll take the bait one last time.

If a student is absent for an examination, they are often granted a degree on the basis of their attainments so far and the opinion of the tutors.

On the same basis, if someone is recognised by HHDL and his root guru as a Geshe and an excellent Spiritual Guide, then I'll take their word for it, as they know the level of his attainments.

Or was the Dalai Lama incapable of that judgement, and Trijang Rinpoche also ?  Other Geshes also received the title without taking the final exam, such as Lama Thubten Yeshe, founder of the FPMT, or so I have read.

Look at it from the other end of the telescope:
Since it is obviously the case that someone called a Geshe in the Gelugpa tradition need not to have taken all the exams but can be identified as such by his gurus, then it is obvious also that the answer to your question is logically 'Yes, GKG is a Geshe'.

Those who wish to claim that GKG is not a Geshe are therefore also saying that HHDL, Chenrezig, is capable of being wrong on a really basic issue, and that Trijang Rinpoche is also wrong. This would be unthinkable to the Tibetans who view HHDL as some sort of God King.

In the UK we can call ourselves by any religious title we like, simply by changing our name.  To do so in order to deceive would be very wrong, but the case of GKG is very well documented and any hint at deception easily refuted, as it has been many times.

For all the above reasons, to me it does not matter at all.  I can't of course speak for those who may be desperate to smear GKG, and cling to any view which feeds their anger - which is very sad.

To the NKT in moving forwards, this issue is long dead, but I do wonder why it keeps being dredged up.  If it could somehow be proven that he was not a Geshe, as there is no longer a connection with HHDL or the Gelugpas under his rule, it does not matter.

The NKT has flourished worldwide, bringing the Dharma to many thousands of students, many of whom can attest to the efficacy of the teachings, so why would it trouble anyone what title was given to the head in addition to the crucial one of Spiritual Director of the NKT, which he has now passed on to his successor?

For all the above reasons, I say again - it does not matter.

Well, as a personal view, interesting as it is to dig up old smears which may also be slanders, I for one am happy that GKG is a Geshe.

We would spend our time more profitably, perhaps, in examining the current actions of those who also hold the Geshe title, a status which has made no difference in their support of violent oppression.  For their actions and their breaches of samaya, perhaps we should consider whether they should immediately disrobe, let alone fuss about their Geshe degree.

[Dharmapal]

Whether it matters or not, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is definitely a Geshe.

He passed the exams and got the qualification. He has explained this himself in teachings, also once saying that he did not go on to get the Geshe Lharampa degree awarded to the greatest scholars, but that he got the regular Geshe degree.

The reason the debate has arisen about whether or not he is a Geshe is because of the politically motivated letter expelling him from his monastery many years after he had left it for opposing the Dalai Lama on his ban on Dorje Shugden practice. It is a crazy piece of propaganda and should not be taken seriously by anyone with an ounce of sense.

See what it says on Wikipedia (as well as its sources):

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was born on Dharmachakra Day (the 4th day of the 6th month of the Tibetan lunar calendar) 1931 in Yangcho Tang, eastern Tibet. His lay name was Lobsang Chuponpa. His ordination name "Kelsang Gyatso" means "Ocean of Good Fortune". His mother made great sacrifices to enable her son to attend the Ngamring Jampa Ling Monastery because he showed interest and aptitude from an early age. He joined the monastery when he was 8 years old and later described memorizing the Medicine Buddha Sutra:

    In my first monastery, Jampa Ling, this was the principal practice. The Tibetan translation of the Sutra is about fifty pages long. I memorized this together with some additional prayers, because this was one of the commitments for being able to stay in the monastery.[6]

(In November 1986, Geshe Kelsang oversaw the rebuilding of Ngamring Jampa Ling Monastery after its destruction, and it was fully restored and reopened by September 1988.[7])

Later Geshe Kelsang studied for 15 years at Sera Monastery near Lhasa,[8][9] one of the great Gelug monastic universities of Tibet. According to Cozort, Kelsang Gyatso is "a highly trained geshe."[10] At Sera Je, he successfully completed the full Geshe studies of five large philosophical texts. After passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse, he received his Geshe degree.[11] He was a member of the Tsangpa Khangtsen, one of the fifteen houses at Sera Je monastery. Contemporaries at Sera Je included Geshe Lhundub Sopa, Geshe Rabten, and Lama Thubten Yeshe.

Waterhouse cites three reasons, traditional in Tibetan Buddhism, why Geshe Kelsang is authorized to be a Spiritual Guide, saying "The combination of experience, lineage and knowledge makes Geshe Kelsang ideal as a teacher. He has the credibility of a genuine Tibetan teacher and the vision to instigate an organization (the New Kadampa Tradition) to present that teaching to westerners."[12][13]