Is Geshe Kelsang A Geshe?

[wang]

Whether it matters or not, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is definitely a Geshe.

He passed the exams and got the qualification. He has explained this himself in teachings, also once saying that he did not go on to get the Geshe Lharampa degree awarded to the greatest scholars, but that he got the regular Geshe degree. ....

See what it says on Wikipedia (as well as its sources):

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was born on Dharmachakra Day (the 4th day of the 6th month of the Tibetan lunar calendar) 1931 in Yangcho Tang, eastern Tibet. His lay name was Lobsang Chuponpa. His ordination name "Kelsang Gyatso" means "Ocean of Good Fortune". His mother made great sacrifices to enable her son to attend the Ngamring Jampa Ling Monastery because he showed interest and aptitude from an early age. He joined the monastery when he was 8 years old and later described memorizing the Medicine Buddha Sutra:

......

Later Geshe Kelsang studied for 15 years at Sera Monastery near Lhasa,[8][9] one of the great Gelug monastic universities of Tibet. According to Cozort, Kelsang Gyatso is "a highly trained geshe."[10] At Sera Je, he successfully completed the full Geshe studies of five large philosophical texts. After passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse, he received his Geshe degree.[11] He was a member of the Tsangpa Khangtsen, one of the fifteen houses at Sera Je monastery. Contemporaries at Sera Je included Geshe Lhundub Sopa, Geshe Rabten, and Lama Thubten Yeshe.

Whether Kelsang Gyatso is a qualified teacher is out of question.  I heard that during the days in India, while other young  tulkus/geshe candidate went for prilimage/relax during break, Kelsang Gyatso just like doing meditation.  He has his own style and be respected by his folks.

But it worth to make it clear whether Kelsang Gyatso is a Geshe from the 3 monastery's view-point. 

My understanding is that after leaving the monastery, tulkus seldom refer themselves as 'Geshe XX ', but XX rinpoche.  For non-tulkus, it seems be tradition that if he got the geshe degree, in official environment, we call him Geshe XX(say Geshe Rabten), if not, we call him Lama YY(say Lama Yeshe), this is for respect of the 3 monastery system and we are using strict definition of 'geshe' here(ie. those who spent years in the monastery and went through the whole curriculum, normally 20 years study for non-tulku).  But in non-official environment, we can call any lama 'Geshe' as far as he spent some years in the monastery for study(ie. using loose definition of 'spiritual friend' here)

From above quote, brief biography of  Kelsang Gyatso is:

- born on Dharmachakra Day 1931

- joined the Ngamring Jampa Ling monastery when he was 8 years old

- studied for 15 years at Sera Monastery near Lhasa

- After passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse, he received his Geshe degree

It is quite strange to me why  Kelsang Gyatso  studied in Sera Je but 'got passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse'.  Let's check the 'shortest path' assuming Kelsang Gyatso didn't spend any time in his home monastery Ngamring Jampa Ling : 1931+ 8+15= 1954. So if Kelsang Gyatso did spend 3 years in his home monastery(which is quite usual), after his 15 years of study in Sera Je, it was 1957!

This timeline analysis provide some hint on what might happen:

Kelsang Gyatso has completed most of his academic training in Sera Je of Lhasa(15 years), but due to the turmoil in Lhasa in 1957, his study was terminated, as for non-tulku it should be total 20 years study on the geshe program.  Kelsang Gyatso might not fled to India immediately (which might be reason he 'passed two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse'), but anyway he did it after-wards.  So it was early 1960s when Kelsang Gyatso arrived India, and by that time the exile community was in a mess, the 3 monasteries was not re-built yet(they were re-built in early 70s).  By reading biography of other senior lamas, it looks that during 60s-early 70s, for purpose of maintaining the lineage, although monks in exile still studied hard, but the environment was not as like Lhasa, so there was a lot of exemption as compared with the Lhasa program, anyway some monks were granted with  'Geshe degree' after completion of the program, and they were required to do a 'graduation offering' to other monks according to  tradition.  Kelsang Gyatso should be one of those granted with this title and be accepted by the sangha as a geshe (in strict definition according to  3 monasteries) during this period.

So Kelsang Gyatso is a geshe, nothing wrong to call him 'Geshe Kelsang Gyatso' in official  environment.  He completed the 'program' during 60s and be granted with this title by then(the graduation offering to monks is the 'signature', not any certificate, who had the $/spare time to print a 'certificate' during this period, when they even don't know where to go for settling down..?).  It was a special time special program, which not like the 3 monastery system as re-established in India now.

[thaimonk]

He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?

[Yeshe]

He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?

I have reported this post as you are just trolling. You've had plenty of evidence and discussion and have ignored some very clear explanations which prove that by the relevant monastic standards he is a Geshe. The fact that you then keep repeating this question is just trolling.

Of course I don't know your intention, but since you ignore all comment in favour of GKG I conclude you are just dragging out a prolonged smear in this thread, in the passive aggressive style.  You also phrase your question in the negative 'he is officially not' which gives away your intention - guilty until proven innocent.

Has it occurred to ask for evidence to prove that GKG is not a Geshe?  I doubt it.  Trolling.

[shugdenprotect]

There are many great people in this world who have no official titles or certificates granted to them by establishments. An example would be the infamous Mr. Bill Gates who does not even hold a university degree. However, he is revered as one of the most successful individual in the secular world for his achievements. If we can offer someone this generosity of acceptance in the secular world, why can’t we do so in the spiritual world? GKG has served us all his life by spreading the Dharma effectively and efficiently.

I also contemplate on the purpose of the “Geshe” title. Is it:

1) Just a feather we put on our hat? Or
2) A “tool” to be used to let Dharma grow in places where there is no Dharma and clarify any misunderstanding of the Dharma?

I have strong belief that the purpose of the “Geshe” title of for the latter. So, I believe and accept with humility and gratitude that GKG is a Geshe.

With regards to the technicalities of the Geshe-ization, as Wang pointed out, it was during the most chaotic period of Tibetan Buddhism history. Perhaps GKG and several other Geshes did not have the opportunity to go through the traditional ceremony although they have the knowledge of a Geshe (as recognized by Trijang Rinpoche and HHDL and reflected in his sound teachings). However, this should not mean that they are not Geshes.

Therefore, let’s not expose our kind Guru to anymore such unnecessary scrutiny and focus on absorbing his precious teachings.

[theloneranger]

Geshe Kelsang is not a Geshe, he is an 'Extraordinary Super Geshe'! 

No Lama or Buddhist teacher in modern times has achieved anything like what Geshe-la has achieved.  That is spreading pure Buddhadharma throughout the whole world.  Just in my medium sized centre alone we have 10 branch classes teaching meditation classes in the surrounding areas.  From all the centres worldwide there must be over 1,000 branch classes all around the world.  If you think each class may get an average of ten people, that means just in one week alone 10,000 people are listening to basic dharma teachings alone. This is truly incredible!

The only reason GKG gets bad publicity is because he stood up to the Dalai Lama when no other Lama dared! He put his very own life at risk and since 1996 when the Dalai Lama introduced the ban he has had 24/7 protections from body guards to protect him because of the frequent death threats he receives. 

There is an on-going smear campaign against GKG that is for sure! But truth is on his side!  It usually takes time but eventually the truth always comes out in the end! 

[crazycloud]

Inspiring Stuff, Ranger!  I can picture you rejoicing as you sit in front of your campfire among the tumbleweeds....

[thaimonk]

No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.

Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.

[crazycloud]

No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.

Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.

The Dalai has nearly used political power to destroy his own Root Guru's lineage. If you really claim he is a the greatest lama of our day, it seems you have no wish for the Vajrayana in general or the tradition of the Ganden Ear-Whispered lineage in particular to reamain in this world.

He only gets a huge audience because many people, not knowing his true wished and actions, have been led through superstition to believe he is a god. Gladly, soon the whole world will see that he is not who they were hoodwinked into believing he is.

[godi]

Hi,
there is a blog from a german montk currently studying at Sera. http://serakhedrub.blogspot.com/2009/09/zuruck-in-sera-und-einige-bemerkungen.html

He is telling the following about the Geshe program (freely translated):

I have to give some background information. Monks who do not like studying then sign for voluntary work like administration work, working int he monastery's restaurant or shops. ..... If the classmates of these monks (who continued studying) get their Geshe title then those monks who spent their time doing the admin, restaurant,... jobs also get their Geshe title even if they spent most of their time to work for the monastery

 
This is the original text in German copied out of the blog:

Ich glaube dazu muss ich noch einige Hintergrundinformationen geben. Manche Mönche merken im Laufe des Studiums, dass ihnen das viele Studieren eigentlich nicht liegt und melden sich dann vermehrt freiwillig für praktische Arbeiten wie das Betreuen der Klosterverwaltung, der klostereigenen Restaurants oder Kaufläden. Diese sind übrigens nicht profitorientiert sondern sollen nur den Mönchen das Nötigste verfügbar machen, damit sie nicht für jede neue Zahnpasta das Kloster verlassen müssen. Erreicht der eigene Jahrgang, bei welchem man eingeschrieben ist, den Abschluss des Studiums, erhält man selbst ebenfalls den Geshe-Titel, selbst wenn die meiste Zeit damit verbracht wurde für das Kloster zu arbeiten.

[thaimonk]

Hi,
there is a blog from a german montk currently studying at Sera. http://serakhedrub.blogspot.com/2009/09/zuruck-in-sera-und-einige-bemerkungen.html

He is telling the following about the Geshe program (freely translated):

I have to give some background information. Monks who do not like studying then sign for voluntary work like administration work, working int he monastery's restaurant or shops. ..... If the classmates of these monks (who continued studying) get their Geshe title then those monks who spent their time doing the admin, restaurant,... jobs also get their Geshe title even if they spent most of their time to work for the monastery

 
This is the original text in German copied out of the blog:

Ich glaube dazu muss ich noch einige Hintergrundinformationen geben. Manche Mönche merken im Laufe des Studiums, dass ihnen das viele Studieren eigentlich nicht liegt und melden sich dann vermehrt freiwillig für praktische Arbeiten wie das Betreuen der Klosterverwaltung, der klostereigenen Restaurants oder Kaufläden. Diese sind übrigens nicht profitorientiert sondern sollen nur den Mönchen das Nötigste verfügbar machen, damit sie nicht für jede neue Zahnpasta das Kloster verlassen müssen. Erreicht der eigene Jahrgang, bei welchem man eingeschrieben ist, den Abschluss des Studiums, erhält man selbst ebenfalls den Geshe-Titel, selbst wenn die meiste Zeit damit verbracht wurde für das Kloster zu arbeiten.

So Geshe Kelsang got a degree without exams and because his classmates passed, he passed along with them??

[godi]

Hi thaimonk,
I think that this just shows that the original question of this thread is without any importance.
Godi

[thaimonk]

Hi thaimonk,
I think that this just shows that the original question of this thread is without any importance.
Godi

Any thread has importance to somebody even if it does not to you.  

So I respect all threads because I respect everyone who wishes to learn anything on a forum whether it is important to me or not.

[theloneranger]

No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.

Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.

I think you are very jealous of GKG and New Kadampa's success.  In England the top football teams in the premiership are disliked when they win honours.  Are you jealous thai monk?  Maybe you should try rejoicing instead of trying to smear GKG, all you do by smearing him is make him more powerful! Because when people  read his books and look at his centre's flourishing around the world, your words just seem ridiculous!

The Dalai Lama is the head of the Tibetan Government in Exile, no one has ever voted against him in the Kashag since the beginning. He speaks up for democracy and human rights around the world telling everyone to respect other religious traditions.  Yet his parliament mixes politics and religion, is no where near democratic. They are in a cold war with China. He harms his own people and has destroyed his own guru's lineage and spreads a mish mash of impure Dharma!    He is lier and hypocrite and we can prove it here on DS.com

Remember in 1996, when he told the tibetan people that DS was the cause of Tibet not getting independence? Do you remember when he told the tibetan people, DS was harming his life? Do you remember when he told the tibetans that DS is spirit and DS practice is causing Buddhadharma to degenerate? Even though DL can't make even one single decision without first seeking advice from the state oracle Nechung!   It's seems the DL is very confused and talks a whole lot of Mumbo Jumbo? But you still have faith in him, why is this?

Since then he changed his reasons for the ban because he new such mumbo jumbo wouldn't wash with press! How convenient!



 

[Mana]

No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.

Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.

I think you are very jealous of GKG and New Kadampa's success.  In England the top football teams in the premiership are disliked when they win honours.  Are you jealous thai monk?  Maybe you should try rejoicing instead of trying to smear GKG, all you do by smearing him is make him more powerful! Because when people  read his books and look at his centre's flourishing around the world, your words just seem ridiculous!




 

No personal attacks on other forum goers. Keep all debates and statements toward the subject matter. Be polite at all times if you wish to be involved on this forum.

Mana

[Mana]

He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?

I have reported this post as you are just trolling. You've had plenty of evidence and discussion and have ignored some very clear explanations which prove that by the relevant monastic standards he is a Geshe. The fact that you then keep repeating this question is just trolling.

Of course I don't know your intention, but since you ignore all comment in favour of GKG I conclude you are just dragging out a prolonged smear in this thread, in the passive aggressive style.  You also phrase your question in the negative 'he is officially not' which gives away your intention - guilty until proven innocent.

Has it occurred to ask for evidence to prove that GKG is not a Geshe?  I doubt it.  Trolling.

NO personal accusations. Keep the debate on the subject matter at all times.

Mana