Will we ever get to practice

[iloveds]

Our wordly living is mundane, what makes us happy is short lived. I feel for later when tis too late what will we have left.

We spend our time in these forums bantering back and forth whether what is said is for real, who said it, where did it come from whose the source yet we don't practice. It doesn't mean we have to sit in front of the altar but it should mean we treat people as we would like to be treated ourselves.

I digress.
In all what I have read thus far in this site re- the history, the requesting of teachings its all from the students side.

How did everyone get their practice? Did you request?
How to request to a secret practice when its errrr secret?

Definitely I'm not at a level as the stories of old, and I think from the teachers perspective its not about the student tries or not... wouldn't it be a matter of "do" or "do not".

If students these days are not at this  level then is there a danger of all these holy practices / attainments dying out or am I wrong...

And then does the adage better to have people practice Dharma badly, that to not practice at all hold in this situation also.

thoughts?

[DharmaDefender]

Personally speaking, I wasn't given the practice in a formal ceremony or anything. My lama basically told me "you should do the black tea each day" and left it up to me to find the prayers for myself, by asking the right students the right questions. When I say 'right', I mean students I already knew had the practice, and questions that showed my guru had given me permission.

I would not have known who to ask had my guru not mentioned Dorje Shugden's practice before. So my experience helps me to answer your next question about requesting for a secret practice. I think sometimes a lama might talk about a practice but not say he or she possesses it. For example, a PhD holder can talk to high school children about physics. The children will understand that this person knows more but they don't know more about what exactly...and if THEY want to know more, they can request.

If we keep the practice to ourselves, it definitely WILL die out when we die out. Therefore I think that the adage does apply...if we spread it, yes of course there is the RISK of the practice dying out because not all practitioners are top notch. BUT amongst the mass of 'poor' practitioners, there will be one or two accomplished people. Without spreading the practice, it may not have ever reached these accomplished people to be kept alive within them. Besides, the 'poor' practitioners will still gain the benefits from the practice, since the object of the practice is an enlightened being.

In any case, I don't think it's for us to judge whether the practice will die or not, because I believe every guru would've thoroughly checked out his or her student before imparting secret practices, and know that it will benefit them in some way.

My 2p!

[honeydakini]

How to request to a secret practice when its errrr secret?

From what I understand, reciting some of the praises and mantras is not forbidden and not secretive. You can recite the mantras (or the "simple" prayers on this website) without breaking any rule.

as to requesting a "secret practice when it's secret": I would have faith and rely on my teacher to know when is the best time to confer a practice onto me. If your lama and centre are open about the practice and you wish to receive the oral transmission or initiation, i believe you can certainly still request as per other practices; or have faith that your teacher will know when it is best for you to start doing the practice. If your teacher does not confer this or any other practice to you, then trust that it is probably because it is not time for you yet or that there are other practices that are more suitable for you.

Most importantly, we have to be sure of our motivation for requesting a practice and that it doesn't just become another kind of attachment or ego trip (such as to think, "I am special, I have received this secret practice")

[triesa]

How to request to a secret practice when its errrr secret?

From what I understand, reciting some of the praises and mantras is not forbidden and not secretive. You can recite the mantras (or the "simple" prayers on this website) without breaking any rule.

as to requesting a "secret practice when it's secret": I would have faith and rely on my teacher to know when is the best time to confer a practice onto me. If your lama and centre are open about the practice and you wish to receive the oral transmission or initiation, i believe you can certainly still request as per other practices; or have faith that your teacher will know when it is best for you to start doing the practice. If your teacher does not confer this or any other practice to you, then trust that it is probably because it is not time for you yet or that there are other practices that are more suitable for you.

Most importantly, we have to be sure of our motivation for requesting a practice and that it doesn't just become another kind of attachment or ego trip (such as to think, "I am special, I have received this secret practice")

This is so very true. Most of the times, we would love to receive initiation of this and that, but only our teacher can guage whether we are at that level to receive such a practice. Sometimes attainments can be realised by engaging some very safe practice, for instance like the Guru Yoga, which does not require the practitioners to hold any particular vow or take any particular initiation.

Obviously one can request, and if the answer is no, then you know where you stand. Higher initiation requires practitioners with a very stable  mind. I am sure our teachers would like to confer the practices to us, but we must do our job to transform our mind so that we are the suitable receptacle to receive these higher secret teachings and practices.

[shugdenprotect]

I agree with triesa that initiations are given according to the level of a student. Sometimes a Guru does not grant initiation to protect the students from their own ignorance and self-cherishing mind.

Some students tend to view initiations as token coins to collect and forget that certain initiations (especially secret ones) come with great responsibilities. Therefore, if our mind is not ready to uphold all the commitments (vows in specific), it is better we are not granted the initiation because the initiation would cause us more “trouble” than benefit. Please note that this “trouble” is caused by the level of our mind stream and not the initiations or vows themselves.

Therefore, as triesa mentioned, when we are not given initiations, we should not be discouraged. Instead, we should use it as a prompt to work harder in the growth of our minds. From various articles and sharing, maintaining clean Guru samaya seem to be a good and “safe” place to start developing the habit to uphold promises and vows.

[hope rainbow]

From various articles and sharing, maintaining clean Guru samaya seem to be a good and “safe” place to start developing the habit to uphold promises and vows.

Sometimes I wonder what really is the meaning of "secret practice".
Does "secret" relate to the practice or to the result?
Or does it relate to both?
And if both, what is the meaning of keeping the practice "secret"... is it so that the result (the secret result) stays highly valued, highly respected, so that the practice itself is more efficient,and the result attained?

Is it that the practice is secret because it is a dangerous practice, a harmful practice if done with delusional motivation?
Thereore, the practice is only made avalable, only taught unde the guidance and monitoring of a qualified guide, a guru.

And if the results are what the "secret part" is, then guru samaya is the most secret of all practices, ain't it?

Thoughts?

[thor]

From various articles and sharing, maintaining clean Guru samaya seem to be a good and “safe” place to start developing the habit to uphold promises and vows.

Sometimes I wonder what really is the meaning of "secret practice".
Does "secret" relate to the practice or to the result?
Or does it relate to both?
And if both, what is the meaning of keeping the practice "secret"... is it so that the result (the secret result) stays highly valued, highly respected, so that the practice itself is more efficient,and the result attained?

Is it that the practice is secret because it is a dangerous practice, a harmful practice if done with delusional motivation?
Thereore, the practice is only made avalable, only taught unde the guidance and monitoring of a qualified guide, a guru.

And if the results are what the "secret part" is, then guru samaya is the most secret of all practices, ain't it?

Thoughts?

In a conventional sense, a secret practice is "secret" so that the practice is not misused by those who are unqualified or who have incorrect motivation. Keeping it secret also protects people's minds from being disturbed by poor practitioners, whose conduct and behaviour are very bad representations of the practice. Imagine a Dorje Shugden practitioner who steals, lies and generally performs very negative actions - if I were new to the practice, I certainly would not think it has effect if its practitioners behaved in that way!

On certain occasions in this samsaric world, secret practices are also often more highly "valued" by those who receive the empowerment - that is when they finally do receive the practice. It should not be the case of course, but because it is not obtained easily, perhaps they will put more effort into the practice, and one day gain real attainments.

With all the possible outer, inner and secret aspects of practice and results, bear in mind that Dorje Shugden's practice will bring us real results, secret results that we may not even expect, but in the long run, it would be the best thing that ever happened to us.

[honeydakini]

I believe that in keeping a practice "secret" it is also a training for us in humility and to keep our egos down. There might be a tendency now, in the age we're living in, to puff up with pride when we receive a practice. We can get carried away on a kind of trip that we are special to have received this practice, we are more highly attained than others and can therefore act "bigger" and higher than them. We run the risk of destroying our own practice by our enormous egos. So we keep these practices "secret" as protection to ourselves, ultimately!

This is similar to what Dulzin has also said about being encouraged to think about how we reflect the practice well by our our body, speech and mind.

[DSFriend]

We run the risk of destroying our own practice by our enormous egos. So we keep these practices "secret" as protection to ourselves, ultimately!

Everyday presents an opportunity for us to practice. We will only be able to tap into the blessings of the buddhas if we follow the rules. And the rules certainly doesn't allow room for our egos to live. I recall the documentary "Words of my Perfect Teacher" by Dzongsar Khyentse. In that movie, he mentioned that having a guru is similar to us having hired an assassin (of our ego)...

[kurava]

Hi Hope rainbow,
I think both the ‘practice’ and ‘result’ are secret.

‘Practice’ is secret because -
1)   The practice is uncommon- not following conventions.
2)   before the Guru gives a student the practice, the Guru will first observe if the student is a suitable vessel
3)   that the student’s motivation to take on the practice is pure and sincere
4)   to avoid the student from developing pride, the Guru gives the instruction of secrecy.
If even Lama Tsongkhapa kept his yidam practice secret during his life time, there must be good reasons why these uncommon practices are kept secret.

‘Result’ is kept as secret –
I remember Lama Tsongkhapa gave clear instruction to all his students not to display whatever powers they may acquire as a result of their practice. Having powers help the Lama accomplish his deeds and also develop skilful means. If it is revealed to students who do not have pure motivation , they can be distracted and lose their focus on their spiritual goals and redirect to wanting such powers.

[triesa]

Hi Hope rainbow,
I think both the ‘practice’ and ‘result’ are secret.

‘Practice’ is secret because -
1)   The practice is uncommon- not following conventions.
2)   before the Guru gives a student the practice, the Guru will first observe if the student is a suitable vessel
3)   that the student’s motivation to take on the practice is pure and sincere
4)   to avoid the student from developing pride, the Guru gives the instruction of secrecy.
If even Lama Tsongkhapa kept his yidam practice secret during his life time, there must be good reasons why these uncommon practices are kept secret.

‘Result’ is kept as secret –
I remember Lama Tsongkhapa gave clear instruction to all his students not to display whatever powers they may acquire as a result of their practice. Having powers help the Lama accomplish his deeds and also develop skilful means. If it is revealed to students who do not have pure motivation , they can be distracted and lose their focus on their spiritual goals and redirect to wanting such powers.

What Kurava pointed out has a lot of sense. But the biggest motivation  to keep these practices "secret"  is to combat one's ego as mentioned by honeydakini, so that the practitioners don't go around telling others that they are qualified for receiving such secret practices while other are still not.

Same goes to keeping the results secret. If the practitioners has attainments as a results of the practice, they also should not  go around telling others that they have vision of such and such deity,  they have achieved some magical power or clairvoyance. Again it is to combat the monstrous ego.

[pgdharma]

Hi Hope rainbow,
I think both the ‘practice’ and ‘result’ are secret.

‘Practice’ is secret because -
1)   The practice is uncommon- not following conventions.
2)   before the Guru gives a student the practice, the Guru will first observe if the student is a suitable vessel
3)   that the student’s motivation to take on the practice is pure and sincere
4)   to avoid the student from developing pride, the Guru gives the instruction of secrecy.
If even Lama Tsongkhapa kept his yidam practice secret during his life time, there must be good reasons why these uncommon practices are kept secret.

‘Result’ is kept as secret –
I remember Lama Tsongkhapa gave clear instruction to all his students not to display whatever powers they may acquire as a result of their practice. Having powers help the Lama accomplish his deeds and also develop skilful means. If it is revealed to students who do not have pure motivation , they can be distracted and lose their focus on their spiritual goals and redirect to wanting such powers.

I agree with  kurava's view. It is the responsibility of the Guru to check out if the student is a suitable vessel to receive the practice and also to check on the motivation. By keeping it a secret, the student will not have a chance to show off their practice which will make the ego and pride grow bigger. We normally protect our most precious things with great care and secrecy. Likewise, if we are given a practice we should guard it and practice it well without flaunting it

[DSFriend]

Hi Hope rainbow,
I think both the ‘practice’ and ‘result’ are secret.

I agree with  kurava's view. It is the responsibility of the Guru to check out if the student is a suitable vessel to receive the practice and also to check on the motivation. By keeping it a secret, the student will not have a chance to show off their practice which will make the ego and pride grow bigger. We normally protect our most precious things with great care and secrecy. Likewise, if we are given a practice we should guard it and practice it well without flaunting it

Welll said. I agree that by keeping practices secret, we free ourselves from the  8 worldly concerns. Of course I'm sure there are many other significance ultimately leading  elimination of our selfishness.

[hope rainbow]

Thank you all for your replies on my question about the "secret" attribute.
I shoud have known also that, as anything Dharma, there are many levels of understanding all connected.

[Helena]

I especially liked what Duldzin and DS Friend wrote.

Their explanations are clear. I thank Hope Rainbow for asking the question in the first place. Because when questions are raised, then discussions will take place and real learning transpires for all. In this way, everyone benefits. So, that is a very good thing.

I believe, in everything and anything that we do in our daily life - we must not get trapped into the 8 worldly concerns.

I found this article, as posted below to be most helpful with regards to the 8 worldly concerns in every single thing that we do in our daily life.

Source: http://www.balancedweightmanagement.com/TheEightWorldlyConcerns.htm


We are extremely fortunate to have a precious human life with its freedoms and fortunes. Do we spend most of our time and energy cultivating our minds and heart? Or, are we ruled by our attachment and anger, getting tangled up in distractions, such as the eight worldly concerns, which seem important now, but in the long term are not?

What is our relationship to the things we touch—sexual pleasure, good food, the weather, nice beds, and physical comfort for our body? What happens when we don’t get these things? What would it feel like and look like to have a healthy relationship to these sense objects that we encounter?
 
The eight worldly concerns are the chief distractions to practicing and applying spiritual principles and transforming our minds and lives.

Examine how the four pairs of worldly concerns operate in your life:

Make specific examples of each type of attachment and each type of aversion. Do they make you happy or confused? Do they help you to grow or do they keep you in prison?

Reflect that the greater the attachment to something, the greater the aversion when you don’t get it or are separated from it.

Apply some of the antidotes (like a medicine) to attachment and anger in order to transform those attitudes. Seek out:

How to Take the Ache out of Attachment and How to Transform Attachment,  and The Process that Transforms Disturbing Attitudes and Negative Emotions.

 
1.      Attachment to receiving material possessions and aversion to not receiving them or to being separated from them. Just notice your automatic responses.

2.      Attachment to praise or approval (getting your validation because of what you do or accomplish or, earn your sense of worth in the world) and aversion to blame or disapproval or not measuring up.

3.      Attachment to a good reputation (having a good image, others thinking well of you or trying to be perfect or being a high-achiever) and aversion to a bad reputation (not being a high-achiever or perfect).

4.      Attachment to pleasures of the five senses (food, drugs, sex, alcohol and nice things) and aversion to unpleasant experiences.
 
Conclusion: Notice if you have placed your sense of refuge (where we look for security, happiness and sense of contentment) in being perfect or accomplishing many things? Or, have you placed your priorities in spiritual principles? What is your motivation?
 
Notice your mood swings as you get caught in their four pairs of worldly concerns. Your mood depends on how you interpret what happens to you. Notice that we naturally like to ensure that everything will come out in our favor. Be aware of how you react to what occurs. Are you attached to certain kinds of experiences? Do you reject or avoid others? Just notice—just as a scientist would, one who was investigating a physical phenomenon.
 
What is the outcome of being over busy on your emotional state?
Do peace, calmness and contentment arise in your mind at those times?
Or do you become more reactive, on-edge and cranky?
Just notice the consequence of this habit of compulsive activity on your state of mind.
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This is the question that had me thinking long and deep -

What would it look like to have a healthy relationship with things, people, people’s opinions and praise? What is a balanced view?