Hate Others Forever?

[thaimonk]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to?   Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.

Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.

The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?

[WisdomBeing]

TM - thanks for the reminder re Dorje Shugden telling us never to criticise the Dalai Lama. As we are Dorje Shugden practitioners, shouldn't we follow what Dorje Shugden says? This point is such a magnificent example of Dorje Shugden's teaching of encompassing compassion and evidence of his enlightened state.

One of my favorite reads since I found this website is  from the 'Dharma reads' section (see these verses below). I truly find that it has changed my life. Every time i get upset and p***** off (often but getting less!), I read them again and again and remind myself what I should strive to be. Every time i read these verses, my hair literally stands on end because i feel the power of the words.

Please i pray to Dorje Shugden and to all the Buddhas, please, please let everyone everywhere read this prayer and may it touch and change everyone's minds and make their lives happier.

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1292  (thank you webmaster/admin for posting this)

(I've bolded the parts below which i like to focus on most)


Eight Verses of Training the Mind
(By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)

With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.

Whenever I associate with others I will  learn
To think of myself as the lowest among all
And respectfully hold others to be supreme
From the very depths of my heart

In all actions I will learn to search into my mind
And as soon as an afflictive emotion arises
Endangering myself and others
Will firmly face and avert it.

I will learn to cherish all beings of bad nature
And those pressed by strong sins and sufferings
As if I had found a precious
Treasure very difficult to find

When others out of jealousy treat me badly
With abuse, slander, and so on,
I will learn to take all loss
And offer the victory to them

When one whom I have benefited with great hope
Unreasonably hurts me very badly,
I will  learn to view that person
As an excellent spiritual guide.

In short, I will learn to offer to everyone without exception
All help and happiness directly and indirectly
And respectfully take upon myself
All harm and suffering of my mothers.

I will learn to keep all these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly conceptions
And by the understanding all phenomena as like illusions
Be released from the bondage of attachment.

[thaimonk]

TM - thanks for the reminder re Dorje Shugden telling us never to criticise the Dalai Lama. As we are Dorje Shugden practitioners, shouldn't we follow what Dorje Shugden says? This point is such a magnificent example of Dorje Shugden's teaching of encompassing compassion and evidence of his enlightened state.

One of my favorite reads since I found this website is  from the 'Dharma reads' section (see these verses below). I truly find that it has changed my life. Every time i get upset and p***** off (often but getting less!), I read them again and again and remind myself what I should strive to be. Every time i read these verses, my hair literally stands on end because i feel the power of the words.

Please i pray to Dorje Shugden and to all the Buddhas, please, please let everyone everywhere read this prayer and may it touch and change everyone's minds and make their lives happier.

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1292  (thank you webmaster/admin for posting this)

(I've bolded the parts below which i like to focus on most)


Eight Verses of Training the Mind
(By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)

With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.

Whenever I associate with others I will  learn
To think of myself as the lowest among all
And respectfully hold others to be supreme
From the very depths of my heart

In all actions I will learn to search into my mind
And as soon as an afflictive emotion arises
Endangering myself and others
Will firmly face and avert it.

I will learn to cherish all beings of bad nature
And those pressed by strong sins and sufferings
As if I had found a precious
Treasure very difficult to find

When others out of jealousy treat me badly
With abuse, slander, and so on,
I will learn to take all loss
And offer the victory to them

When one whom I have benefited with great hope
Unreasonably hurts me very badly,
I will  learn to view that person
As an excellent spiritual guide.

In short, I will learn to offer to everyone without exception
All help and happiness directly and indirectly
And respectfully take upon myself
All harm and suffering of my mothers.

I will learn to keep all these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly conceptions
And by the understanding all phenomena as like illusions
Be released from the bondage of attachment.

What an excellent way to share and contribute to this forum. It soothes my mind and adds to my thinking when I read this post. I truly appreciate this post.

I feel this is what this forum is about when I first observed months ago before actually joining. I hated the Dalai Lama bashing so much. To read endless threads of venom being spewed out against the Dalai Lama. It's like, I know what he is doing, I am not happy, but what's the point to rant endlessly about it. I mean go protest, write letters to govts, hand out brochures, donate to Shar Gaden/Serpom, donate to Tenzin Sungrab, go into lam rim intensive retreat or something constructive. Why attack other forum members endlessly or bombard them with hate issues against the Dalai Lama. You don't donate to Tenzin Sungrab, or help Serpom/Shar Gaden, but attack other forum members is not attractive at all.

I mean this is not a NKT supported or affiliated site I assume. So why all the NKT threads non-stop hate against Dalai Lama? I am not happy with Dalai Lama. I do admire NKT, but endlessly going on and on about what Dalai Lama did is very old, very boring and very unhelpful to all us.

THANK YOU KATE FOR POSTING UP SOMETHING THAT WILL HELP ALL OF US SPIRITUALLY.

[shugdenprotect]

Thank you ThaiMonk for this thread. It is so so so true that we should not become the bitterness of our past experiences. If we keep looking behind us as life move on, we will only re-create the past in our future.

I have been taught that, in defending the practice of our beloved Dharma Protector, Dorje Shugden, we should firstly reflect well of Him. This is the best thing we can do to ensure that Dorje Shugden’s worship spread far and wide.

[hope rainbow]

Many people are looking to understand why the “DS controversy”.

And eventually, a lot of people will make  this controversy a starting point to their spiritual path.
I have a concern when participating to this forum, which is that they find here material and means to present and debate them that encourages them to learn more and see beyond the controversy, discover, learn and practice the amazing teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa, and, in turn, benefit many others with a pure and sincere motivation.

In now possible way is the controversy meant to divide, I do not believe it even a moment.
HHTDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
And they are doing it TOGETHER, however it may look at first glance.

Taking a side is ok, but putting the “other side” down is un-necessary, un-attractive and VERY DANGEROUS for us here that are not qualified to do so FREE OF DELUSIONS.
It is not because a Buddha can show wrath, that is ENLIGHTENED compassionate wrath, that it gives us justification to show PLAIN DELUSIONAL angry and resentful wrath (well, in this case, it would be more like anger, right?)

[Helena]

Hope Rainbow, I especially love what you wrote below:-

In now possible way is the controversy meant to divide, I do not believe it even a moment.
HHTDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
And they are doing it TOGETHER, however it may look at first glance.

Now I know I am probably going to be labeled as pro-HHDL when I say this but I am going to say it anyways -

The fact that HHDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa and DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa - either way, whichever side you choose, you'll still end up the same place - Tsongkhapa.

Both sides still win - either way.

But personally, I am standing on the DS side, which is my personal choice. And I will continue to do what I can do for the cause I believe in which is DS. However, it does not mean that I need to bash or put down the other side. That side is all they have, and they would probably need it because it is their only way, their only salvation as they do not believe in DS. So, fine, they believe in HHDL and may HHDL help them all. They still need compassion and guidance.

We have DS and we will keep practising DS and nothing will stop us.

So, I'll just say very nicely - you go your way and I'll go mine. We'll still meet on the same side eventually.

[Vajraprotector]

I recently watched "Who is Dorje Shugden?" by WSS on Youtube (

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcRT7H5p5A4&feature=player_embedded
	Small | Large

)

It is said that He assists practitioners with providing perfect conditions for their practice of Buddha's teachings, so why is it that we still hold on to so much anger, grudge and so on?

If we are to visualise the protector as the same as our spiritual guide, shouldn't we be ashamed that by using His name, we engage in activities that perhaps go in reverse gear in our spiritual path?

"Dorje Shugden wants peace in this world, Dorje Shugden wants peace in our hearts" (from the video). Let's really work on peace in our hearts first before we want to go all out for peace in this world.

[crazycloud]

Hope Rainbow, I especially love what you wrote below:-

In now possible way is the controversy meant to divide, I do not believe it even a moment.
HHTDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
And they are doing it TOGETHER, however it may look at first glance.

Now I know I am probably going to be labeled as pro-HHDL when I say this but I am going to say it anyways -

The fact that HHDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa and DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa - either way, whichever side you choose, you'll still end up the same place - Tsongkhapa.

Both sides still win - either way.

Hi Helena

In order to understand how incorrect this is, you need to understand that on one side you get Lama Tsongkhapa and DS and on the other side you get a broken chain of Guru devotion. There can be no blessing in a lineage that has declared it's spiritual guide a spirit worshiper. No blessing, no realization.

I'm sorry if this seems stark to you, but to promote the Dalai Lama is to promote a secret mantra stripped of the Lama, a completely sterile path.

[Dharmapal]

Helena et al,

I can understand why you feel the need to defend the Dalai Lama and make out that he is in cahoots with Dorje Shugden. The truth is so painful, that he is trying to destroy the legacy of his own Gurus. But the fact is you are not even allowed to attend the Dalai Lama's teachings. Thousands and thousands of Dorje Shugden practitioners have lost their spiritual lives by being ostracized and persecuted by the Dalai Lama's followers.  Why can we not say these things? Why can we not point out that the Dalai Lama's deeds do not reflect the teachings of his Guru, teachings he still gives but does not seem to follow when it comes to his own people?  The hypocrisy is honestly astounding. Why can this not be pointed out? Why is it seen as hate speech simply to speak the truth with the motivation to help thousands of Dorje Shugden practitioners? What are your ideas for stopping the Dalai Lama, or do you propose that he can do whatever he wants for as long as he wants to and we'll all just go along with it because of his position? It is actually that doormat attitude that has allowed him to get as far as he has already in destroying our tradition. Gandhi did not take it lying down. Why should we? We have already been trampled on.

By promoting the Dalai Lama you are adding to his authority and to the deep confusion that has been spread by his ban, where even Dorje Shugden practitioners seem to feel it is acceptable to agree with him and kowtow to him and believe he is the Buddha of Compassion, or at least somehow justified in his actions.

Check out a couple of his speeches below, and sadly there are plenty more where these came from. Are these really the words of someone who is practicing Je Tsongkhapa's teachings? Who is tolerant and compassionate? And, by the way, the Dalai Lama does NOT promote Je Tsongkhapa's teachings any more, he promotes Rime. He teaches e.g. Lamrim Chenmo only in the context of Rime. This is not the tradition of Dorje Shugden practitioners of the past or present, so why are you defending it?

And do you really think we should let him spout his stuff about Dorje Shugden being an evil Chinese spirit without saying anything?!?!? I mean, come on. Trijang Rinpoche, his root Guru, a spirit worshipper who doesn't know the difference between a Chinese spirit and a Buddha!? What kind of example is he setting for Buddhists to follow when he says his Gurus are "wrong, all wrong"? You think we all need exorcisms? Other Tibetan Buddhists are terrified to come near us due to our spirit worship and who gave them that idea?!

The Dalai Lama bars Buddhist Dorje Shugden practitioners from teachings and empowerments that he liberally gives to thousands of non-Buddhists in the West. The religious reasons he gives repeatedly are that their participation will harm his life and health, but he gives no rational explanation for this, nor any evidence.

 From an address delivered by the Dalai Lama at the preparatory session of Tamdrin Yangsang and Sangdrub empowerments, March 21 1996:

"Since it happens according to government oracles that Dholgyal (Shugden) relates to Chinese Buddhist deities, we actually mentioned him by name in our exorcism based on Tamdrin at that time. Tough these exorcisms cannot be relied upon, I have had strange dreams since then. Therefore I do not feel it will be comfortable for me to have worshippers of Shugden here. If acrimony between deities result in disharmony between humans, it will be spiritual ruination."

He goes onto explain:

"This will affect the life span of the spiritual master as well".

He then points out and praises those former practitioners of Dorje Shugden, including "abbots and spiritual masters", who have given up the practice of Dorje Shugden and "become pure".

He explains how he knows that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese spirit based on locals' dreams:

"Others have reported of a bearded monk strangling them: this is very clear indication that Shugden is a Chinese spirit, far from being a deity."

To those who might not have given up but refuse to leave, he asks them to publically make themselves known by standing up and leaving, saying:

"Not only will it not benefit yourself but in the worst case may even become the cause of shortening the life of the Dalai Lama. If you wish the speedy death of the Dalai Lama, then I have no objection."

 He explains that he has reached these conclusions through divination:

"All final decisions have been concluded only through divination. This address too is a result of a divination this morning."

 He ends with a threat:

"If you private monks and spiritual masters in the monastic colleges continue making excuses and continue worshipping thus, you shall have a day of regret... it will not be good if we have to knock on your doors." 

So maybe this forum is no longer the place where we can point out the ludicrousness and terrifying nature of the Dalai Lama's words and deeds when it comes to destroying his own tradition, Dorje Shugden, and the reputation of our Gurus and lineage Gurus (not to mention us). Saying anything critical about the Dalai Lama apparently shows that we are "angry". But these words and deeds need to be pointed out again and again until he stops. There need be no anger involved, only compassion.

Finally, comparing criticism of the Dalai Lama to criticism of Geshe Kelsang as some of you are bizarrely doing these days is like comparing apples and oranges. Geshe Kelsang has done nothing but promote his tradition and Gurus. He has never destroyed the religious freedom of others. Why are you even thinking of criticizing him on this Dorje Shugden site when he all he has done is display incredible courage and indifference to his own reputation in working to defend the freedom of others and preserve our beautiful tradition of relying upon Dorje Shugden?

I'll probably get a barrage of complaints about this email because it is no longer an accepted view on this forum. I can see why many senior members have taken themselves off this site recently because they simply do not subscribe to the view that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working together. I am sorry to those of you who do believe it, but I do not subscribe to that view either.

[iloveds]

okay that makes sense CC...

But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?

[thaimonk]

okay that makes sense CC...

But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?

Because the Dalai Lama is playing a bigger drama together with Dorje Shugden. He is making Dorje Shugden bigger. That's why Dorje Shugden always says respect the Dalai Lama and don't criticize.

[crazycloud]

okay that makes sense CC...

But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?

hi ds lover

two qestuons for you:
can you give an example

And: how do you know which Dali lama incarnated were correct and valid?
 

[crazycloud]

okay that makes sense CC...

But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?

Because the Dalai Lama is playing a bigger drama together with Dorje Shugden. He is making Dorje Shugden bigger. That's why Dorje Shugden always says respect the Dalai Lama and don't criticize.

Weak post, just imagination, no evidence

[honeydakini]

So maybe this forum is no longer the place where we can point out the ludicrousness and terrifying nature of the Dalai Lama's words and deeds when it comes to destroying his own tradition, Dorje Shugden, and the reputation of our Gurus and lineage Gurus (not to mention us). Saying anything critical about the Dalai Lama apparently shows that we are "angry". But these words and deeds need to be pointed out again and again until he stops. There need be no anger involved, only compassion.

I don’t think this is necessarily true. The very nature of the website has been set up to show “both sides of the story” (as it were), and very openly shares the videos of the protests where people are speaking very strongly against the Dalai Lama, pointing out what he not done correctly, the contradictory nature of his speeches etc. Mind you, every of these videos is also linked back to the original in YouTube, where there is a lot of very passionate debate and commenting under each of the videos.

The website nor the forum denies that there have been ills done against Dharma practitioners. I believe that what it points out is the tone and approach we use to clarify these points and bring them out in the open. There is no shadow of doubt that every person here has a genuinely good intent to protect their global Dharma family, right the wrongs and spread Dharma. But as I send in a previous posting, often, intent is not good enough. I won’t repeat mself, but the points are all here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=845.msg9840#msg9840

As has been said several times, it is not what we are saying, but HOW we are saying it – this applies not just to this issue of DL/ DS but to every aspect of our Dharma practice. Consider how the things we say and the way we say it will be received by the listener/reader (and we have to be honest with ourselves here!) and will it influence them positively to seek things out for more clarity, or just create more confusion in their minds? Will it spur them onto practice, or just get caught up in more samsaric trappings?

[honeydakini]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

Isn’t there something slightly ironic in the fact that it is the very Protector we are “defending” who tells us in turn, to exert patience and not to speak badly against the Dalai Lama? If you have such great trust and reliance on your Protector, then wouldn’t you adhere to his advice? He himself has never said anything against the Dalai Lama; in contrast, he has always encouraged patience and not to criticise.

So on the one hand, we are trying to preserve and practice of this protector we so strongly believe in. But on the other, we do precisely the opposite of what he has frequently advised… Is that saying that you know better than your own Protector? That you are trying to right a wrong that the Protector just isn’t seeing, ignoring or mistaken about?