Hate Others Forever?

[DSFriend]

okay that makes sense CC...

But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?

Because the Dalai Lama is playing a bigger drama together with Dorje Shugden. He is making Dorje Shugden bigger. That's why Dorje Shugden always says respect the Dalai Lama and don't criticize.

Weak post, just imagination, no evidence

Everyone is entitled to share their opinions. Let's stay neautral/non judgemental.

Personally, I do see evidence. Dalai Lama has been the face of Tibetan Buddhism for decades. So many bookstores carry his books...one of which I bought as a young child. I am sure many out there got interested in Buddhism because of a book, a speech, a media appearance by Dalai Lama. I don't think just about anyone can make such an impact. What evidence do I have,...well, how Dalai Lama is able to influence and turn people to the Dharma. I do believe he's the real iincarnation!

[honeydakini]

Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.

By the way, I don’t think this necessarily means that EVERYONE is “being mad and typing obscenities”. I think it is clear that there are many people, who have often presented a clear point of view “against” the Dalai Lama that is very firm in its stance, logical yet respectful. It is not to generalise that everyone who takes this view is “mad and types obscenities”. It is to point out an extreme behaviour that anyone of us could fall into, on either “side” of this debate.

There are a lot of Dalai Lama followers who are very moderate, peaceful and just focus very sincerely and purely on their practices; there are also others who are going out on an insane and aggressive witch-hunt. If we talk about and point out the actions of the latter, it doesn’t mean we include the former. It is to point out the behaviour of a group of people reacting in a particular way.

I wouldn’t take thaimonk’s post as a personal attack, but rather a chance to reflect on how everyone of us we are presenting ourselves in our supposed “defense” of our spiritual practices (this is not specific to Dalai Lama, but could even arise, for example, if someone from another sect does or says something contrary to what we perceive to be “right” – how do we react then?).

[honeydakini]

There is no need to be defensive. If you don’t feel that you have been doing as someone says you have been, then there is nothing you need to say.

Sometimes, feeling hurt about what someone has said and the need to defend and explain and justify your point reveals a lot about how confident or insecure you really are about your own stance.

[Helena]

Dear CC,

Firstly, welcome back as I have not heard/seen in a while.

No, I do not find your words stark at all. It is true to form, CC's style.

Dear Dharmapal,

Thank you for your sharing and thorough explanation on why you hold onto your views. I do not believe that this Forum is no longer a place to discuss and debate. Like HD has been posting a few times already on this subject and she did again in here - it is how it is conducted.

And here, please allow me to quote from others, whose words are truly the epitomy of what I mean to say - without any disrespect to anyone -

Quoted from Mountains, Feb 26th 2008

“WE SHOULD WRITE IN A MANNER NOT DISRESPECTING THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS GOVT, BUT OPEN EVEN MANNER. WE ARE REPRESENTATIVES OF DORJE SHUGDEN WHO TEACHES PATIENCE, TOLERANCE AND FORGIVENESS, SO WE MUST REFLECT IN OUR ACTIONS WHO WE ARE PRAYING TO. DORJE SHUGDEN NEVER LOSES HIS COMPASSIONATE/CALM DISPOSITION, WHICH WE SHOULD DO OUR UTMOST TO EMULATE, IF I MAY SUGGEST PLEASE. WE DO NOT NEED TO ACT IN A WAY THAT OTHERS WHO DO NOT INTERNALIZE THE DHARMA ACT, AT THIS WOULD DEFEAT OUR BODHISATTVA VOWS TO SUBDUE THEIR MINDS EVENTUALLY WHETHER IN THIS LIFE OR FUTURE LIVES.”

A very important article to read which I have found in this website and WB has mentioned many times - http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425. It is indeed a very interesting and good commentary by TK.

I have extracted the parts that resonate with my line of thinking for our easy reference and paste below:-

9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn’t he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to ‘stop’ all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through ‘hell and back’ (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will ‘take’ it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.

Those who take refuge in Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden will not give up on both. Strongholds for the growth of Buddhadharma and the ‘re-arisal’ of Dorje Shugden in the near future. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn’t he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja’s entourage.

So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET’S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now. If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden. The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden’s fault, but the Tibetan ppls’ own fault. But for most of the world , karma is not accepted, so the blame would go to the leader which is the Dalai lama. We couldn’t afford that at this time when no one else can spread Buddhism like the Dalai lama. Think through this carefully to come to terms with the pain in your heart.I do not blame you for the pain. You are not at fault. You are part of a bigger plan. I’ve had many pains in my heart that I have come to terms with and some still working on because of this issue. We are all part of a bigger plan. Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.

10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the ’cause’ for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.

11. Why can’t the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden’s practice later. To leave a mark in ppl’s minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.

12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama’s life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.

13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself ‘SIT ON THE FENCE?’ Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn’t that look contradictory. C’mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us. So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery? If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.

Should we open Shar Gaden which ‘opposes’ the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden’s practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.

Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn’t that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden’s practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.

Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let’s not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect.

Logical?

Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to ‘lose’. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.

After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.

It is not the Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden to blame. Nor are they adding to it. We were in Samsara before the Dalai lama’s name and Shugden even ‘existed’ as we know them today.

Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himelf always. But so does Dorje Shugden. This AGAIN LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE COOKING UP SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER OR IT’S NEARLY COOKED.

Yes, it is nearly cooked.

It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady. Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama’s camp or we go to Dorje Shugden’s camp, we go against lineage lamas. So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disprespect intended, but we won’t need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.

I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERLEY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES. Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.

Much success to all,
Tk





Of course, it is clear that we do not share the same views. But we do share Dharma and the same protector - will you use my different views against me, and enforce a great divide between us? Does that mean we cannot be friends anymore?

If so, are you not doing the same thing that HHDL is doing - causing a clear and great divide between people because we do not share the same views?

No one is denying how bad the ban is and all the horrible consequences of it. No one is saying that it is ok and we should just roll over and play dead. NO ONE said that. At least, I know I didn't.

If HHDL is so bad, DS can easily squash HHDL and zap him out of the picture in no time because HHDL is mortal and DS is a Buddha. But why doesn't DS do that?

Again, I am not asking you to agree with me. Nor am I imposing my views on you. That is not even remotely in my agenda or list of things to do.

I am simply asking, does that mean we can't be friends at all? We cannot work together and help promote DS to the world? Well, if it is a straight and clear NO - then I will be very sorry to hear that.

[Dharmapal]

Hi Helena,

If you are asking me if we are friends, of course we are friends. But I cannot agree with you about going along with the Dalai Lama on this issue and I find TK's reasons convoluted. You cannot hammer a square peg into a round hole no matter what kind of tortuous arguments you contrive to try and do that. The Dalai Lama through his words and actions has shown that he is going to keep trying to destroy our lineage and that Dorje Shugden practioners are "no friends of mine". These are his words, I'm not making it up -- again, why can't we point out something that is factual? How is that criticizing him if he said it and did it?

Or to add a tortuous argument of my own, perhaps the Dalai Lama wants us all to criticize him... that is part of his and Dorje Shugden's master plan!!

The Dalai Lama also says things like this:

"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."

and

 "These monks must be expelled from all monasteries. If they are not happy, you can tell them that the Dalai Lama himself asked that this be done, and it is very urgent."

It is lying down and playing dead to somehow make out that this non-Buddhist speech and behavior is a weird sort of compassion and skill on his part, just to try and maintain your own pure view of him. His actions are not in keeping with Dharma. These actions are what will bring Dharma into disrepute if people find out about them, which is unavoidable with the existence of the new monasteries. Do you want to shoot the messenger? I don't hate him at all, however. I feel compassion for him.

Dorje Shugden will triumph only if his followers really want the lineage to survive and flourish and are prepared to stand up and be counted. We have to keep practicing it while we still have it (thanks to the bravery of those who have not given up their practice even publicly, despite threats etc) -- that is the most important thing of course. But occasionally we also need to stand up to this gross injustice or risk being like doormats and having our fellow Dorje Shugden practitioners stamped on. I've seen that happen too often already. I will not support a dictator's actions nor make any convoluted excuses for him. This is not hate speech. This is simply calling for justice.

Dharmapal

[Dharmapal]

And more in the Dalai Lama's own words (no comment!).

"Anyway, the issue is of critical concern to our Buddhist faith generally and regarding Tibet's Ganden Phodrang or government especially. Therefore what has been done benefits Tibet generally and because most of the concerned people have been able to make a proper choice between what to accept and what to reject in this matter, I felt an urge to thank you all for it. This activity which concerns the well being of our faith should not begin and end like the Chinese campaigns, which start suddenly to deal with an urgent current concern and then, after a while, calm down to eventually, sort of, die out. We should be able to carry forward to a successful conclusion the work that we have started in the matter.

I do feel that there are people there who are still strengthening their efforts to propagate the practice of Dorje Shugden. In the Dragyab region too, some such at the branch Dragyab Monastery and in the Markham region also, I feel that there are people who deliberately retain and propagate the practice. Denma Gonsar passed away last year. In the region where he lived too, there are people who continue and propagate the practice of Dorje Shugden. In the Rawatoe region of Nyethang there are among the monks and nuns coming to Lhasa from Markham, Dragyab, etc., people who propagate the practice. There are monks from the Markham region who have followed their tradition of joining the Ramoche Temple in Lhasa, where they are still propagating the practice of Dorje Shugden.

Whatever is the case, if such people are designedly reciprocating in negative kind the gratitude we owe to the successive Dalai Lamas and are thereby knowingly showing nothing but scorn for the religious and political causes of Tibet and the kindness of the Dalai Lamas, I have no suggestions to offer. If, nevertheless, I am reiterating my emphasis on the issue, it is because we need to hold as objects of compassion people, if any, who do not know about the issue, or who have not heard about it, or who, out of ignorance, have committed a rash mistake, or who have been led astray by others. All those who know about it have a duty to explain and thereby ensure proper conformity regarding what to accept and what to reject. I too take this as very important.

Do you understand? Within the lay and religiously ordained communities in exile those having connections in Tibet have the duty to advise and educate in a convincing manner people in Dragyab, Markham, Chamdo, Denma, and other problematic places as well as related other persons. It would be extremely tragic if in front of me, and, when I am giving the guidance, a person pretends to comply, only to betray hypocrisy when dealing with the reality. Do you understand?"

[Dharmapal]

Last quotation of the Dalai Lama for now, and then I will leave you all in peace to develop faith in this man (who calls his Guru and my Guru and any other beleaguered Gelugpa trying to preserve their lineage "twisted tree trunks"):

At no time has the Dalai Lama or his government been open to discussing the issue. None of the reasons put forth by Abbots and other elders has been accepted or even considered. During a "religious" talk in Dharamsala, circulated by the exile government's Department of Information and International Relations, the Dalai Lama says:

"It is certainly possible that some of you senior spiritual masters, practitioners, monks and lay people have become unchangeable, like twisted tree trunks. It makes no difference to me. Those of you who are studying in the monastic colleges and universities, or wherever you live, think carefully. It is better not to be mistaken from the beginning. There are many young incarnate Lamas at this teaching today."

Here the Dalai Lama points directly at the 13-year old incarnation of his Junior Tutor Trijang Rinpoche, who taught him most of the Buddhism he now teaches to others and gave him the practice of Dorje Shugden.

"You too should think very carefully from the beginning. To rectify a mistake once it has been made is difficult. It is not good. The same goes for those in Tibet."

[thaimonk]

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

[crazycloud]

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

If you investigate the context of this quote, I believe Trijang Rinpoche was referring the Fifth Dalai lama, the First Panchen and Dorje Shugden.

[thaimonk]

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

If you investigate the context of this quote, I believe Trijang Rinpoche was referring the Fifth Dalai lama, the First Panchen and Dorje Shugden.

Trijang Rinpoche teachings are timeless. They can be applied to the 5th and 14th or any Dalai Lamas or any situation.

Trijang Rinpoche is exhorting us to remain patient. Not to collect further negative karma by criticizing anyone. Since Trijang Rinpoche is a important lineage lama, it would be beneficial for us to follow his advice in all situations.

[thaimonk]

H.H. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche has already given a good indication of how he will manifest. By looking at his website you will see he is going to be (and already is) a great teacher: http://www.tbiusa.org

And before leaving for America he gave a very interesting interview with the Tibetan Radio in which he also makes clear his position in relation to DS:

“I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me…and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing…

I also don’t want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas*] would not let me.

I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness…

I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness…

Some have told me, ‘If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.’

It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me.

In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness’s government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.

With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement.”

Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging Shugden followers to stop seeking him,
“I do not wish to be in touch with you.”

*Shugdenpas are people who are devotees of Dorje Shugden.

(This about the current Trijang Rinpoche who practices Dorje Shugden and also does not speak out against the Dalai Lama. Wonderful example to follow)

[kurava]

One thing we must be clear- if one does not condemn DL, it doesn't necessary mean one supports DL.
Why must we classify the participants here as either  pro or anti HHDL ? If we believe in human rights as most of the
anti – DL people claim they do, surely we must ALSO allow people the right of not taking a fixed stand ?

Even if following a broken lineage gives no blessing, but if one insists on following that route  we should respect that it's their wish. We can point out the pit falls or short comings of that route,  but ultimately it's up to the individuals to make his/her choice.

Please, if you wave the banner of “human rights” , practise it.

[hope rainbow]

I posted this on another topic discussion, but I think it has also become relevant to this topic:

Throug these testing times, I believe it most important that:
1. we apprehend the teachings to be without contradictions,
2. we keep our focus on Je Rinpoche's teachings and take them as personal instructions,
3. we prepare ourselves and others for the buddhist renaissance in the making.

There is now, and will increasingly be a great need for debate.
These debates can help a great number of people to develop proper understanding and a steady faith in the qualfied lamas of the Gelug lineage.
Great things can come from these!

I have faith in His Holiness, and I believe that he knows what to do to best help as many as possible.
And I am also a Shugdenpa.
No contradiction there, not for me.

And I woud like to add that debating about the issue is helping our Teachers in their mission to bring the Dharma to many. How well we debate will determine how much we can help them.

[honeydakini]

One thing we must be clear- if one does not condemn DL, it doesn't necessary mean one supports DL.

Thanks Kurava. This is a powerful statement and very true.

Just because someone does not stand up against the Dalai Lama in the way that you think he should, it doesn’t mean that he is supporting all that the Dalai Lama is doing. It could just be that they are exploring OTHER ways of supporting DS practitioners. There are many ways up a mountain.

Didn’t you think that it is also possible that working to strengthen the lineage and practice of DS is also a method of “standing up” to the Dalai Lama?

Isn’t it possible that by keeping a respectful stance towards the Dalai Lama WHILE AT THE SAME TIME promoting the logic and benefit of propitiating this great Dharmapala, we are also “standing up” to the Dalai Lama? We “show him up” for the wrong things that he has done and said, by showing the opposite – the goodness, logic, reasoning, pure Dharma behind DS practice, and at the same time, the non-confrontational, harmonious, tenacious efforts of DS practitioners.

There are people who may benefit and learn from being told things directly, but consider that there may also be MANY, MANY people out there who also may NOT want to hear anything critical of the Dalai Lama (even if it’s true). For these people, that may be the very thing that turns them off from this whole issue/ protector/ Dharma in general. So we look for other ways also of approaching these people, inspiring them and showing them the logic and benefit of DS practice, without going down the route of saying anything against Dalai Lama.

Different strokes for different folks. We are not saying that speaking up against the DL is wrong but again, it’s about HOW we’re doing it. Just because one method works for you, doesn’t mean it will work for others. So be open to consider other ways of approaching the many, many, many minds out there.

[theloneranger]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to?   Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.

Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.

The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?

So why don't you practice what you preach? Why do you continue to troll on DS.com and bash GKG and Lucy James?