Hate Others Forever?

[thaimonk]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to?   Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.

Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.

The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?

[Yeshe]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to?   Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.

Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.

The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?

I heartily agree.

I can across this rant and was very disappointed:

''You don't want to hear anything regarding GKG, then don't talk about the Dalai lama. This is not a NKT forum where people can just go on and on about hate campaigns about the Dalai Lama. If you wish to talk about the Dalai Lama, well, then debate, questions and inquiries may be made by any lama. Keep it consistent. We've been reading three years worth of insults towards the Dalai Lama. So when GKG is in this forum, why not discuss. ''

Manages to accuse the NKT of hate campaigns about the Dalai Lama.

And justifies insulting GKG by stating that others insult HHDL.

I wonder who wrote it?   Hmmmmm....

Terms of Service:
''We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone. ''

[Helena]

This is a great post by TS in http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=863.0 - entitled: WHAT TO DO

I think it is an inspiring read, and everyone would benefit. I have taken the liberty to re-post in here, below.

Now, before I get accused of being patronizing and whatever else - please understand, we all have our different ways and approach.

If your compassion and conscience are clear in your more aggressive approach, then fine. If you are so clear and sure that your motivation is compassion, then proceed as you wish. After all, you have been already doing it for so long and naturally, you believe your way is the right way. But please bear in mind, that way may be right for you but not for all. At the end of the day, you are the one who has to deal with your own karma. And I will have to deal with mine. Again, I am not insulting anyone here.

I prefer my way because it does not require me to disparage anyone. I prefer my way because it promotes peaceful means and methods that does not damage anyone else's mind about any high Lama.

Thank you all and have a good evening.


    What can we DO??
« on: July 31, 2010, 10:30:21 PM »    Quote
 
I started this topic with the hope of generating some ideas about how to be more proactive concerning this issue.
Maybe we can brainstorm and generate some practical plans for more direct action.


Here are a few of the obvious ideas that immediately come to mind:

 
1-Keep commitments and vows relating to our protector.
2-Represent our lineage well by guarding your three doors.
3-Share with others, when appropriate, the vast benefits you have recieved from having a relationship with our protector.
4-Share with others the many good qualities of your Teacher/Teachers.
5-If you are quaified and ready; do the various retreats and pujas so that you are able to then pass the practices on to others.
6-Come out of the closet as a Dorje Shugden practitioner. (This is not possible for everyone, but I think it will help break down the cylce of suspicion.)
7-Sponsor a monk at one of the great monasteries.
8-Sponsor the Shar Gaden World Peace Tour to come to your city.
9-Become a pen-pal with a monk living at Shar Gaden. 
10-Visit one of the great monasteries of our lineage.
11-Sponsor a puja at one of the great monasteries.
12-Get involved and support the various online activities of the monks and the great monasteries. (Facebook, websites, blogs etc.)
13-Stand in unity with others who have a relationship with our protector, regardless of differing views and tactics. United we stand, Divided we fall.

[jessicajameson]

@Helena Thanks for copying and pasting that post, it's really relevant. However, might I add what DharmaDefender wrote as a reply:

"I would like to add (or perhaps this goes without saying), to uphold the vows and practices given to us by our lamas. I think that first and foremost, that should be our priority because without our lamas, everything else as you've kindly suggested, is not possible."

[jessicajameson]

@ThaiMonk Thank you for adding the radio interview with Trijang Rinpoche (which btw, is on the front page of the website  . After reading the first post, Trijang Rinpoche's interview came to my mind, because I too do believe that he is exemplary in how he dealt with the controversy. He didn't pick any sides, nor spoke badly about HHDL or Dorje Shugden (and his practitioners; Shugdenpas).

I really don't think that we ask Dharma students have the right to critically judge any one other than ourselves, let alone higher beings such as HHDL. Who are we? We haven't gone through hundreds of Buddhist texts, we haven't gone through the monastic degree system, we haven't been recognized as any higher lama, we haven't been learning under venerable masters...most of us haven't even seen a monastery!

I find it really ignorant for people to say such mean and harsh words towards HHDL, when what have THEY got to show?

Just because some people have prayed, know some mantras, been part of a dharmic community (of some sort) they feel almost holy-than-thou and have the arrogance to think that they know better. Yikes.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

I have a query though: If there was a student who was brought up in a Dharma center that was pro-DS and although he/she didn't participate in any verbal "bashing" of HHDL, he/she have always been surrounded by people who have done so, and thus, over the years have always heard bad words regarding HHDL.

Would he/she generate bad karma because he/she has been almost indirectly shaped to think that HHDL is bad?

I guess the same question applies to anti-DS practitioners/pro-HHDL. Those Tibetans on the YouTube videos who shun Shugdenpas, do they generate bad karma? They have 100% guru devotion, i.e. in HHDL. I remember hearing somewhere that by having 100% guru devotion, it can help you attain a higher rebirth.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly feel that it's terrible how some Tibetans they treat Shugdenpas (if I was there, so help me, I'd probably retaliate violently..), but if they do it because they are following their gurus words, then surely it doesn't inflict any negative karma on them, right?

[Helena]

Good question, Jessica.

This has also been brewing in my mind.

As when we look at the students and those loyal to HHTDL, are they wrong in upholding their Guru Devotion and acting the way they do to DS practitioners?

Then we look at GKG and what he told his students to do - ie. to protest and demonstrate because they need to do something to defend and help those being prosecuted. Are they wrong too?

So, we bring this analogy onto ourselves, if our Guru asked us to do something that seems so 'crazy', would we just go ahead and do it? If we do, are we also wrong?

At this point, I still have no answers that can sufficiently settle my own mind.

To do the things that we can relate to as logical and good, it is easy to do.

TO do the things that we cannot relate as good and logical, is very hard to do, for sure.

So, if our Guru says go protest, would we?

If our Guru says, go shun this group of people, would we?

Not easy to answer at all. Either way.

The only thing we would rely on and go back to is our own Guru Devotion - because my Guru says so, then I do. As my Guru says so, he cannot be wrong. Hence, I won't be wrong.

Then which brings me to this question - then, who is really wrong? No one?
 

[honeydakini]

I believe there are ways to follow our Lama’s advice – no matter how crazy it seems – without incurring bad karma. In spite of proclaiming the ban on Dorje Shugden, I don’t think the Dalai Lama had ever said to go beat up DS practitioners or act in such a cruel way, which the TGIE are doing.

By the same token, some lamas may have encouraged their students to join the protests, but it was to bring attention to what was happening, NOT to criticise the Dalai Lama.

So the most important thing in all of this is having a clear understanding of why we’re doing what we’re doing – in situations like this, where there is a divide, are we following what the Lama tells us “to win” over the other side, or because we sincerely wish to help and protect other people? Perhaps our Lama has given us a directive – but there may be many means of carrying it out that does not have us resorting to harm others.

As to your question about whether someone generates bad karma for indirectly being shaped to think HHDL is bad… I am not entirely sure how this works, but I would assume that yes, they do collect some negative karma by virtue of the object that they are thinking negatively of (the dalai lama who is a teacher and Avalokiteshvara). However, this would not be as bad if they didn’t act out of that wrong view.

If however, they perpetuated this wrong view by encouraging others to think negatively of him, breaking other people’s samaya with DL, causing DL’s students to split away from him and to stop receiving teachings from him, then this would definitely create even more negative karma. It is one think to think something, and quite another to act on it and perpetuate that negative cycle. 

[Zhalmed Pawo]

If however, they perpetuated this wrong view by encouraging others to think negatively of him, breaking other people’s samaya with DL, causing DL’s students to split away from him and to stop receiving teachings from him, then this would definitely create even more negative karma. It is one think to think something, and quite another to act on it and perpetuate that negative cycle. 

If you have samaya with HHDL, you should not share any resources with DS-practitioners. Therefore why would anyone like that be here, in this forum, for instance? As no-one who holds the samaya to HHDL would not come here, whatever we talk here, can not harm the ears of those. Therefore we cannot be a cause for any samaya-splits, or breaks. Even if we here would all adore HHDL, we would still be DS-practitioners, and therefore no samaya-holding disciplse of HHDL should ever come here, unless they are already breaking their samaya by simply coming here. Merely being here, in this forum, is a cause for samaya to break towards HHDL, for this is a DS-forum.

[diamond girl]

Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?

Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.

Isn’t there something slightly ironic in the fact that it is the very Protector we are “defending” who tells us in turn, to exert patience and not to speak badly against the Dalai Lama? If you have such great trust and reliance on your Protector, then wouldn’t you adhere to his advice? He himself has never said anything against the Dalai Lama; in contrast, he has always encouraged patience and not to criticise.

So on the one hand, we are trying to preserve and practice of this protector we so strongly believe in. But on the other, we do precisely the opposite of what he has frequently advised… Is that saying that you know better than your own Protector? That you are trying to right a wrong that the Protector just isn’t seeing, ignoring or mistaken about?

Honeydakini,

Well said. Calm, substantial and non-offensive. You have made a good point and if we hear what you are saying it is easy to pose a debate in your manner of calm, purposeful and not offensive. You catch my attention with your points. I read others and I continue to read but I am not compelled to reply as I feel I will not be heard as their points are put forth in such a way it seems not open. I could be wrong.

At the end of it, I am here to learn about the practice of Dorje Shugden and am loyal to that purpose.

[Dharmapal]

BTW, Trijang Choktrul's disciples were encouraged to join the demonstrations, quite a number attended.

Also, it is an important point that if you wish to remain faithful to the Dalai Lama you should not be visiting this site and hanging out with Dorje Shugden practitioners. He has expressly asked you not to.

The Dalai Lama has made it an either/or.

[hope rainbow]

Today, I am still in the same mind-set as I was when I heard HHTDL talk about DS for the first time, a few years ago.
That is:
"He knows better than me what he is doing, I must trust, this is going to be good."
Never, from past high lamas to present ones, from HHTDL, TR to GKG, never has a high lama done anything harmful. It is not possible, and if it is, then it is impossible again...

[Lineageholder]

I believe there are ways to follow our Lama’s advice – no matter how crazy it seems – without incurring bad karma. In spite of proclaiming the ban on Dorje Shugden, I don’t think the Dalai Lama had ever said to go beat up DS practitioners or act in such a cruel way, which the TGIE are doing.

The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them".  He has never once said publicly that  Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect.  Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care.  I don't think he is naive.

Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different?  TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less.  The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.

[WisdomBeing]

The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them".  He has never once said publicly that  Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect.  Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care.  I don't think he is naive.

Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different?  TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less.  The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.

How i look at it is that,

1. If HHDL is a Buddha, whatever he is doing is beneficial ultimately.
2. If HHDL is not a Buddha, he will receive the karma of his actions.

Either way, I have no way to judge so I shall not.

[DSFriend]

The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them".  He has never once said publicly that  Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect.  Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care.  I don't think he is naive.

Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different?  TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less.  The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.

How i look at it is that,

1. If HHDL is a Buddha, whatever he is doing is beneficial ultimately.
2. If HHDL is not a Buddha, he will receive the karma of his actions.

Either way, I have no way to judge so I shall not.

Dear Wisdombeing
I like the points you put forth.

Some say time is the "biggest enemy". If all we do is to foster and cultivate hatred and hurt, then time will be the biggest enemy. "Tomorrows" will stop one day and when we look back, we have only hatred and hurt staring back at us! "And  oppss....by then we would have run out of time to do anything about it!

[Helena]

The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them".  He has never once said publicly that  Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect.  Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care.  I don't think he is naive.

Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different?  TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less.  The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.

How i look at it is that,

1. If HHDL is a Buddha, whatever he is doing is beneficial ultimately.
2. If HHDL is not a Buddha, he will receive the karma of his actions.

Either way, I have no way to judge so I shall not.


Dear WB & DS Friend,

What you both wrote really resonated with me.

If I had spent all my time on earth hating, being angry or even sad and depressed, then I believe I would have resigned from life altogether.

I rather invest all my time in promoting peace, knowledge and compassion - within and without. At least, when I look back, I would feel that I have spent my time fairly well.

As I am unable to judge anyone - let alone, HHDL - Karma will take care of all the judging. I don't need to and it is not my place to do so.

The only karma I should and can judge is my own. So, it is the only one I will work on and manage.

Hopefully, I will incur more good karma than bad.

Dear Wisdombeing
I like the points you put forth.

Some say time is the "biggest enemy". If all we do is to foster and cultivate hatred and hurt, then time will be the biggest enemy. "Tomorrows" will stop one day and when we look back, we have only hatred and hurt staring back at us! "And  oppss....by then we would have run out of time to do anything about it!