Lama Yeshe and Dorje Shugden

[WisdomBeing]

I was with some friends the other day and someone said that the largest Dharma organisation in the world was NKT, and the second largest was FPMT. Both founders of these two organisations, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Lama Yeshe respectively, are/were Dorje Shugden practitioners.

The growth of FPMT has slowed down since they have stopped their practice of Dorje Shugden. Some of their members have been very vocal against Shugden practitioners too. They have created the causes for Lama Yeshe's incarnation, Lama Osel, to not teach.

To me, this is all perfect illustration of karma - cause and effect. It proves that Dorje Shugden is really a swift Protector to bring growth to Dharma, and it also shows what happens when people stop propitiating him and create schism.

[beggar]

Some of their members have been very vocal against Shugden practitioners too. They have created the causes for Lama Yeshe's incarnation, Lama Osel, to not teach.

This is a very key point to realise. People think wrongly sometimes that it is the Guru who issue the seemingly wrong advice that is for, or against, or harmful. Unfortunately, whatever harm or bad effects that come out is not what the Lama has advised but it is the wrong action of the students who reflect the teachings wrongly, or take it further than it should go or misintepret them. They separate from the teachings and practice but that is never the lama's fault. It is the student's own karma manifesting so they cannot be near the teachings even if they want to be.

Be careful who you are talking about! you could be destroying your own practice while you think you are being righteous and good.

[WisdomBeing]

This is a very key point to realise. People think wrongly sometimes that it is the Guru who issue the seemingly wrong advice that is for, or against, or harmful. Unfortunately, whatever harm or bad effects that come out is not what the Lama has advised but it is the wrong action of the students who reflect the teachings wrongly, or take it further than it should go or misintepret them. They separate from the teachings and practice but that is never the lama's fault. It is the student's own karma manifesting so they cannot be near the teachings even if they want to be.

Be careful who you are talking about! you could be destroying your own practice while you think you are being righteous and good.

I always think that many Lamas are highly attained beings so if it's a choice between whether the Lama is right or I am right, i think there is no contest. I know some people don't believe in the tulku system, which is their choice, but even if you don't believe in it, believe in the good works and tangible results of Lamas like Lama Yeshe who founded FPMT.

Incidentally, there have been several related discussions at the forum on Lama Yeshe and Dorje Shugden.

I found this one reposted at the main website which presents the situation well.

Comment: Is FPMT breaking samaya by denouncing Dorje Shugden?
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2916

1. Lama Yeshe fervently practiced Dorje Shugden. He depended on Dorje Shugden singularly and said so openly many times. He encouraged his students to do the practice. He himself practiced all the way to his death.

2. Under Lama Yeshe’s instructions, Kopan practiced and did the kangsol puja every month until the 1990’s.

3. Why is it that it was practiced for so many years, and then suddenly it is no longer holy. How can holy become unholy?

4. Within Lama Zopa’s meditation and guru devotional practices, Lama Yeshe and Dalai Lama should be equal. In real life, their statuses are not, but in his meditations it should be. Otherwise, that would mean that whether our teacher is a Buddha or not, how we view him in our meditations would be determined by his hierarchical status in life. That would contradict Guru Devotional practices.

Therefore, when Lama Yeshe was alive, Zopa Rinpoche was a great practitioner of Dorje Shugden. Then, when Lama Yeshe passed away, Lama Zopa doesn’t ‘respect’ Lama Yeshe’s practices anymore and switches to the Dalai Lama’s stance. Can a great being like Lama Zopa be so wishy-washy?? In Lama Zopa’s meditations, does Dalai Lama override Lama Yeshe?? In our meditations, does the Dalai Lama, who is higher by hierarchy, override ones’ own guru who may not be of the same level? Then that would throw off the whole guru devotion practice in a new light.

5. When Lama Zopa does that, what is the message he sends to his students? That it is okay to switch from your lama’s point of view to another more famous lama’s point of view? I still don’t wish to believe that of Lama Zopa but he is taking that appearance.

6. Lama Zopa himself was discovered, recognized and enthroned, a tulku or Rinpoche reincarnation by Dorje Shugden’s oracle in Dromo Geshe Rinpoche’s Dungkar Monastery. (‘The Lawudo Lama’ by Jamyang Wangmo. Vajra Publications. Pages 172,173, 176, 177. See on Pg 374, footnotes 249, 250, 256). This book also has a foreword by the Dalai Lama, incredible as it may seem. This book clearly states that the monks caring for Lama Zopa consulted Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) and that Gyalchen recognized Lama Zopa as a true incarnate lama and advised that special care should be taken of him. If Gyalchen was an evil spirit, why would he discover and allow the enthronement of Lama Zopa who benefits so many today?

FPMT has a global drive to look good, get into the Dalai Lama’s good books and be politically aligned with the Dalai Lama in order to boost the prestige of their own centres in a drive for membership, sponsors, students, resources and growth. All that is fine, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF PUTTING OTHER DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITONERS DOWN. AFTER ALL, LAMA YESHE, THEIR FOUNDER PRACTICED DORJE SHUGDEN. If they criticize Dorje Shugden practitioners, then they do not respect their root guru’s guru. In some cases, they would be disrespecting their direct guru. How can you respect the Dalai Lama but not Lama Yeshe? What difference is there in the meditations?

Perhaps Lama Osel is not able to manifest his tulku activities because FPMT has an active drive, defamation and schismatic talk towards other centres/lamas that practice Dorje Shugden. The karma of that is very heavy. It would fall back onto their own lamas not being able to manifest their works. It is very dangerous and should be immediately amended. Yes, FPMT may be very well known now, but at what heavy price? When Lama Zopa passes away, can Lama Osel handle the organization, inspire the organization, run the organization or have the spiritual education to do so? If not, whose fault is it? The Lama’s or the students?

7. FPMT and Kopan Monastery have a huge negative stance against Dorje Shugden in order to get into the Dalai Lama’s good books and succor the Tibetan Government’s support. With that support, they press down, deface and have a spoken campaign against Dorje Shugden and his practitioners. That is incredible considering that Lama Yeshe was a great practitioner who held Dorje Shugden as his principle protector until his death. Lama Zopa was recognized and enthroned by Dorje Shugden himself. Does FPMT sound ungrateful now to look politically good? And if they look politically good, it is at WHAT EXPENSE??

8. FPMT mother branch and Kopan Monastery should send a worldwide message out to all their great dharma centres around the world to never criticize Dorje Shugden, his practices and his followers. FPMT may, of course, follow H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama but not in a political fashion; and they should not use the Dalai Lama’s fame to boost their own standing by defaming Dorje Shugden.

Even some of you who have not received teachings within FPMT but have received teachings from Lama Yeshe, remember that he is your lineage lama. In your daily sadhanas, you have to invoke upon him for blessings for your own attainments. If you think he is dirty, wrong or unattained due to his practice of Dorje Shugden (and therefore, destroyed his refuge), then that would be the same for Lama Zopa. This is because he passed down whatever he had to Lama Zopa. Therefore, whatever was passed down, would also have been stained or foul assuming that practicing Dorje Shugden destroys your basis and refuge commitments. If what Lama Zopa has is stained, then all that he is disseminating is stained also.

9. FPMT as a whole should follow His Holiness the Dalai Lama, but with the correct religious perspective. They should not put down any centres, institutions, lamas or students who wish to be spiritually loyal to Dorje Shugden because their own lamas, and lineage lamas relied on Dorje Shugden. Also, Dorje Shugden was VERY KIND AND HAD GREAT FORESIGHT TO DISCOVER AND INSTALL LAMA ZOPA AS A TULKU.

Here are a few more threads I found informative:

Who Made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=49.0

Kopan Monks Divided
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=659.0

Dorje Shugden statue at Kopan Monastery
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=400.0

There's such a wealth of information on this website and forum, please do browse through the older threads.

[beggar]

I always think that many Lamas are highly attained beings so if it's a choice between whether the Lama is right or I am right, i think there is no contest. I know some people don't believe in the tulku system, which is their choice, but even if you don't believe in it, believe in the good works and tangible results of Lamas like Lama Yeshe who founded FPMT.

What a great way of looking at things. Yes, let's look at the results of these lamas' works to "judge" because there really is no other way we are qualified enough to judge their actions. I like to look at how many people in the world are benefited by these lamas actions. If we haven't been able to bring Dharma to that many people or really benefited others, then who are we to comment on, criticise or judge the lamas? This is the same with any situation in life!

I rejoice in the way that you see the Lamas. You are a Wisdom Being indeed and have a lot of Dharma in your heart.

[shugdenpromoter]

I was with some friends the other day and someone said that the largest Dharma organisation in the world was NKT, and the second largest was FPMT. Both founders of these two organisations, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Lama Yeshe respectively, are/were Dorje Shugden practitioners.

The growth of FPMT has slowed down since they have stopped their practice of Dorje Shugden. Some of their members have been very vocal against Shugden practitioners too. They have created the causes for Lama Yeshe's incarnation, Lama Osel, to not teach.

To me, this is all perfect illustration of karma - cause and effect. It proves that Dorje Shugden is really a swift Protector to bring growth to Dharma, and it also shows what happens when people stop propitiating him and create schism.

This article post was quite some time ago BUT I can't agree with Wisdom Being more. NOT only organisation like NKT who practices Shugden brings growth to Dharma. Even to a certain extend Lama such as Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche who practices Shugden, their dharma work seems to flourish in a faster pace. Serkong Tritul has big monasteries in Nepal, Taiwan and his student Jamseng Rinpoche has awfully wealthy sponsors in the South East Asia countries thus their centers in these countries are very well supported.  Gangchen Rinpoche who is the United Nation Ambassador of Peace is able to spread the lineage far and wide.

Even the monasteries in Tibet like Sampheling Monastery (Trijang Rinpoche's Monastery in Chatreng) is able to build recently a 33 meter Tsongkhapa Statue (The largest in the world) and another huge monastery to look at their success is the Denma Gonsar Rinpoche Monastery in Qinghai. These are all monasteries which practices Shugden.

Therefore, there is truth that when you practices Shugden, one of the benefit is growth in dharma.

[beggar]

I'm glad you revived this post - there's has indeed been a lot of discussion about Lama Yeshe / Lama Zopa and Osel and Shugden practice. I still don't know what the reasons really were for Lama Zopa to have decided for his organisation not to continue with the practice but there have been many hints recently that he still maintains a strong connection to the lineage and practice, perhaps secretly?

For example, this photo / article about him paying respects to Trijang Rinpoche's stupa: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11310

Or this one:
Kopan's monks requesting for DS pujas for Lama Zopa's health: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1823.0

I think it is not so much what Lama Zopa has decided for his organisation - he must certainly has his reasons - but how it has then be carried out by students throughout the organisation, who have been very actively hurtful and speaking out against  Shugden practitioners. See, they may think they're keeping their samaya by following the advice of Lama Zopa, but surely by acting badly towards Shugden practitioners (or towards anyone for that matter), that isn't keeping samaya either?

Also, I had wondered - there must be many many students in FPMT who were disciples of Lama Yeshe but not of Lama Zopa, who took over Lama Yeshe as the spiritual guide to FPMT. Would they have had to give up their practice also even if Lama Zopa is not their Guru?

[Ensapa]

I'm glad you revived this post - there's has indeed been a lot of discussion about Lama Yeshe / Lama Zopa and Osel and Shugden practice. I still don't know what the reasons really were for Lama Zopa to have decided for his organisation not to continue with the practice but there have been many hints recently that he still maintains a strong connection to the lineage and practice, perhaps secretly?

For example, this photo / article about him paying respects to Trijang Rinpoche's stupa: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11310

Or this one:
Kopan's monks requesting for DS pujas for Lama Zopa's health: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1823.0

I think it is not so much what Lama Zopa has decided for his organisation - he must certainly has his reasons - but how it has then be carried out by students throughout the organisation, who have been very actively hurtful and speaking out against  Shugden practitioners. See, they may think they're keeping their samaya by following the advice of Lama Zopa, but surely by acting badly towards Shugden practitioners (or towards anyone for that matter), that isn't keeping samaya either?

Also, I had wondered - there must be many many students in FPMT who were disciples of Lama Yeshe but not of Lama Zopa, who took over Lama Yeshe as the spiritual guide to FPMT. Would they have had to give up their practice also even if Lama Zopa is not their Guru?

In some way or another, I dont really believe that Lama Zopa actually made up the rules to not allow any Dorje Shugden lama to teach at his center. It certainly sounds in more ways than one like he was pressured to enforce that rule as FPMT's growth and his health and Dharma activities and even his recognition depended entirely on Dorje Shugden's help and as such, I do not believe he will abandon Shugden that readily.

one must agree that there are bad hats in every organization but it seems that the majority of them took control in FPMT and started misconstructing Lama Zopa's advice. I have also heard that Lama Zopa was not happy about this - in several centers he personally visited them and removed the president of that center for politicking, and had all traces of that president removed from that branch -- but how many FPMT centers can he visit to do this?

If his students dont wake up from all the attempts to become the authoritative Buddhist center in every country they reside in by putting down other centers that dont align to their view, they're just taxing Lama Zopa because Lama Zopa has clairvoyance, and he knows what is going on and he has to manually visit every single center doing this sort of nonsense to put an end to it.

I have read somewhere in this forum that Lama Yeshe's students in FPMT were all kicked out as they were all Dorje Shugden practitioners right after Lama Zopa made that announcement. It was really sad because he was heading the department where he would visit prisons to give talks to the prisoners and stuffs, but that whole unit was closed down after they decide to remove him for his practice.

[dsiluvu]

In some way or another, I dont really believe that Lama Zopa actually made up the rules to not allow any Dorje Shugden lama to teach at his center. It certainly sounds in more ways than one like he was pressured to enforce that rule as FPMT's growth and his health and Dharma activities and even his recognition depended entirely on Dorje Shugden's help and as such, I do not believe he will abandon Shugden that readily.

If Lama Zopa did not make those rules then who did? The center's administrative did it without His consent? But I do agree that He definitely was placed in a position where he had very little choice and had to toe the lines otherwise the whole FPMT would suffer the consequences of condemnation just like NKT. Probably Lama Zopa's name would have appeared in the long list of the many names that were being hunted down by the CTA. But thus far it has all quiet down dramatically. I wonder how come?
Is it because HHDL is now touring the world and giving out his last attempt to find a way to cgarner attention n support for his plight for Tibetan autonomy?

I do feel that this will be his last attempt though... what do u guys think?

[DharmaSpace]

People's whose center have benefitted so much from Dorje Shudgen must never turn their backs on the great protectot. And Dorje Shugden not only helps us in this life but lifetime after lifetime isn't it worth it to thank the lord protector who made all so many things manifest and happen to us.  If there is no gratitude in  our mindstreams what kind of buddha dharma can we realise and practices?

[Ensapa]

If Lama Zopa did not make those rules then who did? The center's administrative did it without His consent? But I do agree that He definitely was placed in a position where he had very little choice and had to toe the lines otherwise the whole FPMT would suffer the consequences of condemnation just like NKT. Probably Lama Zopa's name would have appeared in the long list of the many names that were being hunted down by the CTA. But thus far it has all quiet down dramatically. I wonder how come?
Is it because HHDL is now touring the world and giving out his last attempt to find a way to cgarner attention n support for his plight for Tibetan autonomy?

I do feel that this will be his last attempt though... what do u guys think?

It could be, or he could have been forced to enforce that policy by the center's administration. There is no way anyone could tell because there were cases where the Ladrang/Changtso has acted against the Lama's wishes. It could also be that Lama Zopa received direct instructions from the Dalai Lama to do so, but in any case, he was very skillful to also state to not make any nasty comments against Dorje Shugden or hold any wrong views towards him. Sadly tho, all of these fell on deaf ears and the students decide to start a crusader rampage against Dorje Shugden. In any case, Lama Zopa had to personally visit centers that were too badly affected with the political rampage and replace the president of the center directly. I have heard this happen in a few centers. i do feel sad for Lama Zopa that he has to deal with all of these.

Let's look at the case of Kalu Rinpoche. In an earlier statement, he said that he was very disappointed that the Dharma he built became political and he is very disappointed with his center:

I am at Kagyu Ling, my oldest center in France.

Kagyu Ling was home of the first Three-year retreat center in the west. This was my predecessor’s gift to the west in 1976. Where are all the trained and qualified lamas? Where are all the old students? On the other hand I see a lot of tourists. If you look at the retreat centers today, they are empty, abandoned and pitiful. This is shameful. This breaks my heart.

As a matter of fact, many people have come to me and informed me about the misbehavior of some of the lamas over many years; moreover there is a deep unhappiness and disharmony among the residents. In the interest of protecting the center and the Dharma I requested the lamas there to step down. Shamelessly, in response, those lamas have decided with a lawyer to deny my authority as spiritual head of the lineage and this center.

I myself am not perfect, but nevertheless I profoundly respect the Dharma.

Many times lamas talk about devotion. Devotion, devotion, devotion,  but when I need to make a change that counters their plans, there is no agreement, no devotion. I am tired of Dharma politics. I am tired of Dharma business.

Since all those years, sincere practitioners have come, many have left, many have been disillusioned, many are sad, it is time to reconnect and put things back on track.

I want to change the system for a system that doesn’t involve abuse of power or abuse of money and is respectful of people and students. I want to keep Dharma safe. I want to keep Dharma pure. I want to keep Kagyu Ling safe.

I need prayers and support from all of you to put it right. Please join us in prayer and action during this difficult time. Sorry to bother you with bad news.  I know that you have professional and family obligations, but at this time I really need you.

We are all waiting for a change. The time is now, and I cannot do this without you. This is my responsibility, but nevertheless I would be very happy to have you close to me during this difficult time. If you are able, please join me at Kagyu Ling for the weekend of 23-25 April, 2011.

From my heart. My love to you all.

The next thing that happened was his confession of him being raped and him running away from his teachers and him hoping to reform his center while he gets tattoos and "enjoys" lay life, getting a girlfriend etc. If this happened to Kalu Rinpoche, the same situation could have happened to Lama Osel. Sadly, FPMT still does not realize this even at this juncture and point in time. Wake up, FPMT!

[Dondrup Shugden]

Lama Yeshe was a very devoted lama of Dorje Shugden but on his entering clear light, the center he founded was being lead by Lama Zopa who rejected Dorje Shugden.

Very interesting comments to read and think about Guru Devotion in FPMT.