Lama Yeshe and Dorje Shugden

[hope rainbow]

Extract from http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=20
(refer to this link for full text)

QUOTE:
[…]
Lama [Yeshe] made no conflicts between the great lamas, his lamas, lineages, schools, diverse religions and certainly not Dorje Shugden and I think that embodies his capacity to think from a deeper wisdom.
[…]
Also never to criticize Dorje Shugden and the practices Lama gave us SO THAT HIS CURRENT INCARNATION CAN MANIFEST AS A DHARMA TEACHER.
[…]
We should reflect Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa well, by never criticizing other sects, lamas, lineages, practices, Dorje Shugden, etc.
Why? Because it contradicts Lama Yeshe’s Bodhicitta aspirations. We should not especially criticize lamas who are spiritual heirs of Sera, Gaden, Drepung or who are students of Pabongkha, Trijang, Zong Rinpoches.
Why? Because they are OUR LINEAGE LAMAS ALSO AND THEY ALL PRACTICED DORJE SHUGDEN AS THEIR PRINCIPLE PROTECTOR.
[…]
We of FPMT, especially the people who joined after Lama Yeshe’s passing should think of the future from a wide scope. Our founding father was a sound Dorje Shugden practitioner, and his legacy was passed to Lama Zopa who was invested as a Tulku by Dorje Shugden.
Our lineage lamas all practiced Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. We must not criticize this protector in any way. If he was so bad, or truly a spirit, do you think all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot out beat him? Do you think the Dalai Lama cannot do some wrathful pujas and just subdue him as was done to Nechung (In Exile From The Land Of Snows-Wisdom Publications by John F. Avedon. Chapter: Wheel of Protection pgs 238-270).
Could it be that and evil spirit can harm the Dalai Lama’s life, merits and activities? If he can be harmed, then what is the point we take refuge?
[…]
Yeshe Sangye
(end of quote)


Upon reading about Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa, and the FPMT, I could not help but try to figure out how students and teachers attached to FPMT resolve their guru devotion. How to resolve the apparent contradictions between teachers, and between one’s teacher and one’s teacher’s teacher… From outside, it sure does not look easy… Those of us who are in a Student-Teacher (guru) relationship know how much we get challenged at times, how much sometimes one is pushed out of his comfort zone, how one is forced to find a way to reconcile what seems to be completely opposed.

It reminds me of the very first, instinctual reaction I had when I came across the Dorje Shugden / Dalai Lama “controversy”, and that was before I knew much about the training under a guru within the Vajrayana school. My first reaction was that the Dalai Lama was taking his students and even people beyond those that are his direct students through a very though training.
The result of a though training monitored by qualified Teachers = quick progress, tangible results.

Of course, by now, it is clear that this is more than a training, this is a very skillful way of using people’s delusions (and communities delusions even) to promote Dharma. So, if we keep looking into our community only, we see opposition and conflict, but if we look outside, we see that the Dharma grows, and I think that it is with the knowledge gathered by looking outside that we can look inside again and stop seeing opposition and conflict.

With complete devotion to our Teacher and his lineage and with a relative peace of mind, things that look as conflicting can actually look very different!

I know a few people that have gained great peace thanks to the kindness and the teachings of Lama Zopa, and I wish for FPMT to continue spread the Dharma. I also wish that Lama Osel (incarnation of Lama Yeshe) will experience the conducive conditions to become a Teacher in the future, and I hope it is sooner than later.

[hope rainbow]

For further info, here is the copy of an article on Lama Osel:
See http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=252

[shugdenprotect]

I very much agree with this statement:

“So, if we keep looking into our community only, we see opposition and conflict, but if we look outside, we see that the Dharma grows, and I think that it is with the knowledge gathered by looking outside that we can look inside again and stop seeing opposition and conflict.”

More often than not, when we just zoom in on something without taking a step back from time to time to review the situation in entirety, we loose sight of where we stand in relation to other elements which we have interdependence with.

In other words, a decision that was “good” at one point in time may no longer be beneficial as situations change. If we do not shift our actions accordingly, the original decision, which was aimed to bring benefit, becomes something we grasp onto with righteousness and ignorance. Finally, a good motivation becomes one that causes more harm than good.

Therefore, it would be wise to consider Yeshe Sangye’s advice to consider others especially our kind Gurus before making decisions or taking actions. If we develop a habit on considering the impact of our actions on our Guru and lineage, we develop Guru devotion and clean Guru samaya, which forms a strong foundation for our spiritual growth and the spread of pure Dharma.

[honeydakini]

So, if we keep looking into our community only, we see opposition and conflict, but if we look outside, we see that the Dharma grows, and I think that it is with the knowledge gathered by looking outside that we can look inside again and stop seeing opposition and conflict.

This is a very good point – one that I think many of us probably overlook. It’s interesting to note that while we are all squabbling about our small little differences, we forget to look at the much larger picture where our similarities hold much stronger ground – that is, our strong faith in Dorje Shugden and our practice.

If the practice is growing so strongly around the world now, even with our differences, imagine how much bigger it can grow if we only united more strongly. 

The great sages and teachers always forecast that Dharma will not be destroyed by external forces but by Dharma practitioners themselves... and this can definitely be seen within the Buddhist world, within this very issue of Dorje Shugden/Dalai Lama conflict. We have turned into Buddhists "fighting" against Buddhists It is ironic that in defending the very beings we take refuge in, we have forgotten their teachings to us.

Thanks HR for your apt reminder. Let's look outwards to the world and keep the practice growing.

Peace all xxx

[shugdenprotect]

How frightening it is to read that “Dharma will not be destroyed by external forces but by Dharma practitioners themselves…”! However, looking at the realities of events that are unfolding before us, this speculation is sadly accurate.

This statement is also logical because the essence of the Dharma is protected and upheld in completeness by the Sangha community. If so much is being done against them, hindering their work and practice, it is no surprise that the destruction of Dharma is coming from within.

Therefore, HD is right, we should come together and have the Dharma grow bigger swiftly so that more and more people will be blessed.

[hope rainbow]

How frightening it is to read that “Dharma will not be destroyed by external forces but by Dharma practitioners themselves…”! However, looking at the realities of events that are unfolding before us, this speculation is sadly accurate.

everytime we criticize our Lama or another Lama, we create causes for the Dharma to be destroyed.
Why? because we create the causes for Dharma Teachers to not be heard, to be doubted, to be put-down, and how would Dharma flourish without Teachers?

[triesa]

How frightening it is to read that “Dharma will not be destroyed by external forces but by Dharma practitioners themselves…”! However, looking at the realities of events that are unfolding before us, this speculation is sadly accurate.

everytime we criticize our Lama or another Lama, we create causes for the Dharma to be destroyed.
Why? because we create the causes for Dharma Teachers to not be heard, to be doubted, to be put-down, and how would Dharma flourish without Teachers?

I can't agree more to the above. It is in times of conflicts, doubts and confusion that one can really practise real dharma. it is like you can only practise patience when someone is there to annoy you. Likewise, you can only practise real Dharma when you encounter situations that you don't like or disagree with. What would you do when you don't agree with the things certain lamas do or say? Should we just jump and start to attack them  and ignore the many other good deeds that they have done for their students? Why do we always judge others or the lamas with our very narrow perspective? I believe we should ask ourselves this question........Have we done more than them or are we just here trying to pretend we are intellectual?

Triesa

Triesa

[Helena]

How frightening it is to read that “Dharma will not be destroyed by external forces but by Dharma practitioners themselves…”! However, looking at the realities of events that are unfolding before us, this speculation is sadly accurate.

everytime we criticize our Lama or another Lama, we create causes for the Dharma to be destroyed.
Why? because we create the causes for Dharma Teachers to not be heard, to be doubted, to be put-down, and how would Dharma flourish without Teachers?

HR, what you wrote here is precisely HITS the heart of the issue.

Without the teachers, there can be no Dharma. There will be no center, no teachings and certainly, no realizations.
Everything stems from the teacher.

Do we not realize it already that we are, in actuality, killing the Dharma when we criticize any Lamas?

Whenever we criticize, the blood is in our hands. We are the guilty ones.

In order for Dharma to grow, really grow - stop creating schism, stop disparaging and criticizing others and their Lamas.

As it is, with engaging in such negative actions and activities like criticizing, are we allowing the Dharma to even grow inside us in the first place?


I especially liked what HD wrote:-

If the practice is growing so strongly around the world now, even with our differences, imagine how much bigger it can grow if we only united more strongly.

Yes, I rather engage in actions and activities that would promote the Dharma even more - within me and outside of me.

And I sincerely pray that we will all be united more strongly.

Thank you and have a wonderful day!

[hope rainbow]

If the practice is growing so strongly around the world now, even with our differences, imagine how much bigger it can grow if we only united more strongly. 

And I think we should just really try to imagine that, we should contemplate on that. This type of contempation can build up our motivation to be of assistance to others and build bridges rather than ditches.
Every new lock I add on my door is acting like a cause to attract a new burglar, a new problem, a new conflict.
Every lock I remove is a step to peace.

[DSFriend]

If the practice is growing so strongly around the world now, even with our differences, imagine how much bigger it can grow if we only united more strongly. 

And I think we should just really try to imagine that, we should contemplate on that. This type of contempation can build up our motivation to be of assistance to others and build bridges rather than ditches.
Every new lock I add on my door is acting like a cause to attract a new burglar, a new problem, a new conflict.
Every lock I remove is a step to peace.

Quite poetic! Why do you think there's so much emphasis on differences which usually results in division instead of unity?

[WisdomBeing]

Why do you think there's so much emphasis on differences which usually results in division instead of unity?

Unfortunately it is a reflection of our minds. it's like looking at the cup to see if it's half empty or half full. Some people will see it as half full and others will see it as half empty. And fight about it, when both are neither right nor wrong. We choose how we wish to view our world and we create the causes for future results, so we only have ourselves to be held responsible for the results.

[beggar]

everytime we criticize our Lama or another Lama, we create causes for the Dharma to be destroyed.
Why? because we create the causes for Dharma Teachers to not be heard, to be doubted, to be put-down, and how would Dharma flourish without Teachers?

from a purely "selfish" point of view, criticising lamas and creating the cause for dharma to be destroyed has terrible effects on ourselves and our own practice too because we create the cause to never meet with a qualified teacher or a qualified path to practice and gain the wisdom to free ourselves from this cycle of samsaric existence.

in fact, because we're destroying the dharma from the inside out, we create more causes for us to be led onto totally wrong paths which just create more negative karma for ourselves and keep us in the samsaric cycle for longer

we shoot our own feet!

[WisdomBeing]

everytime we criticize our Lama or another Lama, we create causes for the Dharma to be destroyed.
Why? because we create the causes for Dharma Teachers to not be heard, to be doubted, to be put-down, and how would Dharma flourish without Teachers?

from a purely "selfish" point of view, criticising lamas and creating the cause for dharma to be destroyed has terrible effects on ourselves and our own practice too because we create the cause to never meet with a qualified teacher or a qualified path to practice and gain the wisdom to free ourselves from this cycle of samsaric existence.

in fact, because we're destroying the dharma from the inside out, we create more causes for us to be led onto totally wrong paths which just create more negative karma for ourselves and keep us in the samsaric cycle for longer

we shoot our own feet!

I read somewhere that it is doubly negative karma to criticise Lamas (whether they are Buddhas/attained beings or not) because we are putting doubt in THEIR students' minds and thus potentially separating them from the Dharma and their Gurus, which has huge negative karmic consequences. So the more students a Lama has (such as the Dalai Lama), the bigger the negative consequences - is that true?

[honeydakini]

I read somewhere that it is doubly negative karma to criticise Lamas (whether they are Buddhas/attained beings or not) because we are putting doubt in THEIR students' minds and thus potentially separating them from the Dharma and their Gurus, which has huge negative karmic consequences. So the more students a Lama has (such as the Dalai Lama), the bigger the negative consequences - is that true?

oh I imagine this certainly to be true.

It seems only logical that in separating others from the Dharma (this is a kind of schism within the sangha, no?), that you would then also create the cause for yourself to be separated from the Dharma. My Lama has also taught that in creating schism, we create the karma for people never to stay close to us; we create the causes of separation.

As to whether the karma we create is proportionate to the number of students that lama has - yes, this makes logical sense too. I understand it in this way: for example, a  teacher may have 100 students, and those 100 were destined to go on to do great things by studying with him, practising and gaining attainments. Those 100 students could then have gone on to each influence another 100 being each - and it grows exponentially. If we had encouraged the growth of that lama and the spiritual path of those 100 beings, imagine the incredible merit we gain by having brought dharma to so many people!

The converse is therefore also true. If we plant doubt into the minds of those 100 students, and they separate from the teacher, their practice and all that they could have potentially achieved, then we created the cause for that. More than that, we may have caused them not JUST to separate from their teachers, but also to think negatively and badly about their teachings, their dharma family, the Dharma in general, the teachings etc. Then, we create the cause for dharma to have been "destroyed" as it were. All the negative karma that those people may have been spared by practising the dharma would be thanks to us and our big mouths! I daresay, we take on the karma of all those people too because we allow it to happen and deliberately stop them from a better path.

Then if those 100 students were, instead, 1000 students, 5000 students, etc then I am sure the karmic effects would definitely grow in proportion to that too. It's very dangerous to mouth off on Lamas simply because we just don't know what kind of domino-effect it could have on students everywhere and their spiritual paths. Neither can we know just how many students that teacher might actually have and therefore, how many beings we are affecting.

[beggar]

I read somewhere that it is doubly negative karma to criticise Lamas (whether they are Buddhas/attained beings or not) because we are putting doubt in THEIR students' minds and thus potentially separating them from the Dharma and their Gurus, which has huge negative karmic consequences. So the more students a Lama has (such as the Dalai Lama), the bigger the negative consequences - is that true?

oh I imagine this certainly to be true.

It seems only logical that in separating others from the Dharma (this is a kind of schism within the sangha, no?), that you would then also create the cause for yourself to be separated from the Dharma. My Lama has also taught that in creating schism, we create the karma for people never to stay close to us; we create the causes of separation.

As to whether the karma we create is proportionate to the number of students that lama has - yes, this makes logical sense too. I understand it in this way: for example, a  teacher may have 100 students, and those 100 were destined to go on to do great things by studying with him, practising and gaining attainments. Those 100 students could then have gone on to each influence another 100 being each - and it grows exponentially. If we had encouraged the growth of that lama and the spiritual path of those 100 beings, imagine the incredible merit we gain by having brought dharma to so many people!

The converse is therefore also true. If we plant doubt into the minds of those 100 students, and they separate from the teacher, their practice and all that they could have potentially achieved, then we created the cause for that. More than that, we may have caused them not JUST to separate from their teachers, but also to think negatively and badly about their teachings, their dharma family, the Dharma in general, the teachings etc. Then, we create the cause for dharma to have been "destroyed" as it were. All the negative karma that those people may have been spared by practising the dharma would be thanks to us and our big mouths! I daresay, we take on the karma of all those people too because we allow it to happen and deliberately stop them from a better path.

Then if those 100 students were, instead, 1000 students, 5000 students, etc then I am sure the karmic effects would definitely grow in proportion to that too. It's very dangerous to mouth off on Lamas simply because we just don't know what kind of domino-effect it could have on students everywhere and their spiritual paths. Neither can we know just how many students that teacher might actually have and therefore, how many beings we are affecting.

oh yes.

and another thing. What if those 100 students not only left the dharma but went out and continued doing even more bad things, hurt more people, create more problems in the world, destroy more people's views of the dharma, create more views and spread them around like a locust!

Who would have created all those problems? Why, you! the one who had planted the negative thoughts in their mind in the first place.

it is better not to go there - we create far more trouble than its worth, even for ourselves.

if we are really concerned, show them the things they CAN do well in their practices. Show them positive sides of things and urge them towards that. don't just denigrate their lamas. this is all a part of skilful method!

just some old ramblings from an old beggar,

yours truly, b