Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso on demonstrations - spring 2008

[crazycloud]

Crazy Cloud,

Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.

Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?

H1N1

Sorry which cynistic (sic) insinutations are you referring to?
Further, why do you write as though you represent the forum?
Finally, I do not think a "more positive note" is appropriate "regardless," this is a neophyte's misunderstanding of the path.

[DSFriend]

Crazy Cloud,

Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.

Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?

H1N1

Sorry which cynistic (sic) insinutations are you referring to?
Further, why do you write as though you represent the forum?
Finally, I do not think a "more positive note" is appropriate "regardless," this is a neophyte's misunderstanding of the path.

Crazycloud

Read the Forum House Rules if you haven't. Several forum posters have been very kind to have highlighted this to you.
STOP disrespecting the rules in this forum!

[harrynephew]

Crazy Cloud,

Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.

Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?

H1N1

Sorry which cynistic (sic) insinutations are you referring to?
Further, why do you write as though you represent the forum?
Finally, I do not think a "more positive note" is appropriate "regardless," this is a neophyte's misunderstanding of the path.

Hi Crazy C,

As a forum participant, I think I do have my views to the comments posted here. The insinuations are referred to the comments which u have posted re Dalai Lama.

In any case, the more positive note I am referring to is not to put any Lama's name, their works and reputation down in any way, but to speak of their qualities, virtues and the benefits which they have brought to the lives of many.

I am sure u know what I mean

H1N1

[jessicajameson]

I applaud taking action, but I personally feel the way it was conducted was not very good and affected many people's mind about Buddhism - Sangha on the street screaming "Dalai Lama STOP LYING!" (Dalai Lama the spiritual head of your sect of Buddhism LIES? I thought LYING is against the refuge vow. Then I don't want to be a Buddhist !)

it IS disgraceful for a Buddhist to lie so egregiously. The Dalai Lama should stop lying, this will help more people to want to become Buddhist. The solution is not pretending it is not happening, but helping the Dalai Lama to see the error in his course.

This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader.

@Vajraprotector I agree with you, that by protesting and screaming out such strong statements it would create such wrong views in other peoples' minds.

However, by merely protesting itself, I think that a lot of people who watched the protests on the news, or maybe even saw it live would've thought that this was an accepted thing to do in Buddhism: protest against His Holiness the Dalai Lama (?? !)

HHDL is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. I doubt that people would pick up a picket and start shouting profanities in front of Avalokiteshvara. So why the difference in action? We're truly living in degenerate times. No karma to see right from wrong. Everyone thinks that they know better than the Dalai Lama.


@CrazyCloud Don't take it so personally, this really is just based on logic:

Who are YOU to say that the Dalai Lama should stop lying? Who are YOU to tell him what he's doing is wrong? Who are YOU to "help him see the error in his course"?

(In this incarnation)
Did you start your monastic education at the age of six, studying the five major and five minor subjects (logic, Tibetan art and culture, Sanskrit, medicine, and Buddhist philosophy which can be further divided into five more categories: Prajnaparimita, the perfection of wisdom; Madhyamika, the philosophy of the middle Way; Vinaya, the canon of monastic discipline; Abidharma, metaphysics; and Pramana, logic and epistemology etc)?

Did you sit and pass with honours, getting awarded the Geshe Lharampa degree, the highest-level degree equivalent to a doctorate of Buddhist philosophy? (Which at 23, you were probably just sitting in front of the tele, or reading a book about ants in Starbucks).

Are you trying to save whatever you can of your country's traditions, culture and spend everyday of your life trying to build a government in exile, and negotiate peace plans with a power nation (China) to give your broken country autonomy and freedom?

Have you received over 84 awards, honorary doctorates, prizes, etc., in recognition of your message of peace, non-violence, inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion?

Have you authored more than 72 books?

AND THIS IS JUST IN THIS INCARNATION.

So while you are sitting there holding such negative views about the Dalai Lama, constantly writing such terrible things about HHDL on this forum (and most probably others), THINKING THAT YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR HIM....I suggest that you talk about something else that you've got the qualifications to or just join others in here for a healthy discussion on DS.

Because what have YOU done for Buddhism or for greater mankind? Clearly not advocating peace.
 

What do you think?

[crazycloud]

@CrazyCloud Don't take it so personally, this really is just based on logic:

nothing personal, jj.

Who are YOU to say that the Dalai Lama should stop lying? Who are YOU to tell him what he's doing is wrong? Who are YOU to "help him see the error in his course"?

I am someone who can easily see when someone contradicts their own words.  I don't need to be anyone else.

By the way, I certainly feel the passion in your post, but I'm not clear where in your words to find the logic you mention. These just seem like rhetorical questions. Just saying.

(In this incarnation)
Did you start your monastic education at the age of six, studying the five major and five minor subjects (logic, Tibetan art and culture, Sanskrit, medicine, and Buddhist philosophy which can be further divided into five more categories: Prajnaparimita, the perfection of wisdom; Madhyamika, the philosophy of the middle Way; Vinaya, the canon of monastic discipline; Abidharma, metaphysics; and Pramana, logic and epistemology etc)?

I am a lay person and have have studied logic and Buddhist Philosophy. I have no need to study the rest.

Did you sit and pass with honours, getting awarded the Geshe Lharampa degree, the highest-level degree equivalent to a doctorate of Buddhist philosophy? (Which at 23, you were probably just sitting in front of the tele, or reading a book about ants in Starbucks).

The Dalai Lama is always given a Geshe Lharampa degree, it would be a huge embarassment and a political disaster to do otherwise.

Are you trying to save whatever you can of your country's traditions, culture and spend everyday of your life trying to build a government in exile, and negotiate peace plans with a power nation (China) to give your broken country autonomy and freedom?

no, I have nothing to do with politics whatsoever.

Have you received over 84 awards, honorary doctorates, prizes, etc., in recognition of your message of peace, non-violence, inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion?

It seems these awards have no basis in reality as the Dalai lama has contradicted his message of peace, non-violence,  inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion. This manifestly being the case, who but a fool would be impressed with these awards? (by the way, I DID win a haiku contest in the fifth grade..)

Have you authored more than 72 books?

No, and neither has the Dalai Lama. He goes around the world repeating the teachings given to him by his Dorje Shugden Lamas, and then these transcripts are turned into books. It's big business, I'm told.

AND THIS IS JUST IN THIS INCARNATION.

Even the Dalai lama admits to not being sure whether or not he has any relationship with the prior Dalai lamas, I wonder where you come by your certainty?

So while you are sitting there holding such negative views about the Dalai Lama, constantly writing such terrible things about HHDL on this forum (and most probably others), THINKING THAT YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR HIM....I suggest that you talk about something else that you've got the qualifications to or just join others in here for a healthy discussion on DS.

there's no need to shout, dear, I can hear you. As to your suggestion, I am afraid I find little merit in it.

Because what have YOU done for Buddhism or for greater mankind? Clearly not advocating peace.
 

my main good quality is that I so far managed not to shame and attempt to destroy the lineage of my root guru, and this is something even our friend the Dalia lama can not claim. And I do advocate peace, by the way, just not peace imposed from the outside.

thanks for your comments, I'm sure I'll be hearing from you again soon.

[beggar]

JessicaJameson: Please be aware of how you are posting. your most recent post on this threat is getting very personal! There is a way to make your point without addressing it directly to individuals or making it personal. Remember to keep this forum friendly and harmonious.

EVERYONE: KEEP TO THE TOPIC AT HAND and stop directing your posts to individuals on the forum. Discuss the view, not the person. Think about the message you are presenting.  If it is about an individual, then deal with it on a private message basis. if you are trying to make a point to educate and share information, then it doesn't need to be written so directly and personally. Think about how these little personal conversations help or don't help people who are coming here with a sincere wish to learn. They probably don't want to read squabbling.

Please read the house rules. This forum is about creating harmony and how can we achieve this if we are launching personal remarks on each other.

keep things friendly, folks

yours, beggar

[Helena]

Woah...this has become another heated discussion...please remember the Forum Rules and Regulations.

Ms. JJ, this is not meant to offend you in any way, but I think your "tone" needs calming down.

Everyone is entitled to their own views and everyone is free to present their perspectives - however, please do not resort to any personal attacks on one another.

I may not agree with CC, but I do respect that CC has the right to think that way, or in whatever way she or he chooses.

Everyone who comes into this Forum will make up their own minds. We may not agree with what they are saying, but we have to respect that they have the right to say it - no matter how different their thoughts are from ours.

Let's keep the due respect in perspective no matter how different our perspectives are.

I wish everyone a very lovely evening/day...depending where you are.

[Lineageholder]

As a long time contributor,  I have to say I find the present state of the forum somewhat depressing.  There is a disturbing uniformity of view about a 'big picture' in which the Dalai Lama destroys the practice of Dorje Shugden in order to promote it - I find this 'logic' completely baffling. 

Then there is the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama' crew who have become increasingly vocal while the dedicated, long term members of this forum have simply given up coming here.  I can see why. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect a rear-guard action by the Dalai Lama and his followers to protect his worldly reputation.

Is it not clear to everyone that destroying the pure lineage of your root Guru is a negative action?  What's so difficult to understand and why are so many people rushing to justify his actions?  Don't be blinded by the 'big name' Dalai Lama but check his actions with wisdom.  Ask yourself 'Why would a Buddha or even a true member of the Sangha destroy Buddhadharma?'

[harrynephew]

As a long time contributor,  I have to say I find the present state of the forum somewhat depressing.  There is a disturbing uniformity of view about a 'big picture' in which the Dalai Lama destroys the practice of Dorje Shugden in order to promote it - I find this 'logic' completely baffling. 

Then there is the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama' crew who have become increasingly vocal while the dedicated, long term members of this forum have simply given up coming here.  I can see why. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect a rear-guard action by the Dalai Lama and his followers to protect his worldly reputation.

Is it not clear to everyone that destroying the pure lineage of your root Guru is a negative action?  What's so difficult to understand and why are so many people rushing to justify his actions?  Don't be blinded by the 'big name' Dalai Lama but check his actions with wisdom.  Ask yourself 'Why would a Buddha or even a true member of the Sangha destroy Buddhadharma?'

Hi Lineage Holder,

I do read your grief and experience your depression a while ago. Actually, I was rather upset that both spiritual and political figures have to take this big drastic turn in the day and time to bring both Buddhism and the protector to the masses.

Having went through that period of depression, this went through my mind and it helps me. I hope by me sharing here will help u to overcome your current state of mind as well. I put myself in the shoes of a Tibetan refugee who was forced out of Tibet and to be living in exile with the rest of my own world of people in an alien land. To make things worse, I am not allowed to practice or propagate a sacred teaching my root guru has compassionately given me to help me cross the mountain plateau of Tibet to India. And this has to do directly with our lord savior Avalokiteshvara, Dalai Lama himself.

In mannerism of HHDL's effort to bring hope, comfort and liberation to his people, I salute and remain faithful and loyal to His Holiness. I believe He is an emanation of the Great Compassionate one without doubt because his strength being able to uphold a nation in exile for the past 50 years tells me that he is not a normal being with a secular motivation of power, else the TGIE would have dissolved and destroyed itself the minute they were booted out of their homeland.

If we do not take HHDL's ban and critism on Dorje Shugden as a form to present this sacred protector to the world, what else could it be. I take the same theory of having to sacrifice the entire Tibetan nation during the cultural revolution for Tibetan Buddhism to flourish in the entire world. If this didn't happened, most likely Tibetan Buddhism would have remained in Tibet and never grow out of its nation and eventually die in the highlands.

Likewise, this theory for the current suppression of DS lamas and suppression is just temporary in order to usher the era of Dorje Shugden which will be beneficial for the world now and in the near future.

Hope my little sharing helped. My advice, get over our personal agenda and perceptions. Life's better living for the 'Bigger picture' as we put it. Less of ourselves, more for others.

Cheer up!
H1N1

[Zach]

Might i stress the importance of keeping internal views internal. 
After all if one recognises self-as Heruka and everyone in this state as beings of his pureland you dont go around loudly voicing this opinion. People think your crazy ! 
In the same way while the action appear to be impure we should not use this as justication for an internal view, As what happens if it turns out that the ban gets worse ? Peoples faith will be erroding fast.

[beggar]

As a long time contributor,  I have to say I find the present state of the forum somewhat depressing.  There is a disturbing uniformity of view about a 'big picture' in which the Dalai Lama destroys the practice of Dorje Shugden in order to promote it - I find this 'logic' completely baffling. 

Then there is the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama' crew who have become increasingly vocal while the dedicated, long term members of this forum have simply given up coming here.  I can see why. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect a rear-guard action by the Dalai Lama and his followers to protect his worldly reputation.

Is it not clear to everyone that destroying the pure lineage of your root Guru is a negative action?  What's so difficult to understand and why are so many people rushing to justify his actions?  Don't be blinded by the 'big name' Dalai Lama but check his actions with wisdom.  Ask yourself 'Why would a Buddha or even a true member of the Sangha destroy Buddhadharma?'

Lineageholder,
I'm sorry you find the "present state of the forum somewhat depressing". Please note that it has always been the policy of this website and forum never to disparage Gurus or speak negatively against them. This is different from questioning and debating, which this forum has always encouraged. Even the range of articles and videos on the website provide both sides of the story including the protests, the actions of the dalai lama, all the information about dalai lama being taken to court and etc

Strong action has had to be taken against some individuals for:
1) using very strong, unnecessary and aggressive language on the forum against other users and other lamas (including the dalai lama)
2) acting contrary to the mission of the forum which is to not post anything negative against any lamas.

as moderators, we of course encourage debate and questioning. we are not against having other views - we have actually long co-existed with opposing views and shared many wonderful moments of discussion. I too miss those old days often! but we are against the behaviour on the forum and the way that people have begun to present their views in disharmonious, sometimes aggressive ways, which not only harms themselves and other users of the forum, but also harms many other thousands of people who regard these lamas as their Gurus. This is what saddens me.

Then again, maybe we shouldn't always blame our dissatisfaction on others. Perhaps the forum has turned out to be something you don't quite like - what can YOU (or in fact every single one of us) do here to make a difference to improve it? Use this space as a place of practice - to uplift others instead of disparage or indulge in more conflicts n problems.

[harrynephew]

Might i stress the importance of keeping internal views internal. 
After all if one recognises self-as Heruka and everyone in this state as beings of his pureland you dont go around loudly voicing this opinion. People think your crazy ! 
In the same way while the action appear to be impure we should not use this as justication for an internal view, As what happens if it turns out that the ban gets worse ? Peoples faith will be erroding fast.

From Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors pp 6:

"Just as the jewel shines with
With various colors not its own,
Likewise, due to varying conditions of beings,
Buddhas appear in forms other than that of actual Vajradhara.

Accordingly, the wish?fulfilling jewel is not varicolored, yet it transforms into many various colors so that it appears to be colors that it is not. Likewise, because of the various families, faiths, and wishes of beings, Buddhas who have exhausted all faults, sometimes emanate with body, speech, and mind that appear as if they have not abandoned all faults. In impure environments, they emanate displaying ordinary deluded worldly forms, when appearing to pure beings they appear as transcendent wisdom supra?mundane Protectors, and on occasions of extreme purity they appear in the form of the non?dual Yuganadha, the Unified Pair. But there has never been a worldly or a supra?mundane Dharma protector who was truly existent as such from its own side.

Furthermore, even those who appear to be enemies who are harming oneself, for someone who is meditating on the spiritual path, at the common stage of great scope, appear as one’s own extremely cherished dear child, and at the uncommon first stage, they appear through the force of meditation as gods and goddesses. When the special bliss of completion stage is generated in the mind, they appear in mandalas throughout space in wisdom forms and pure lands. Gradually, when one attains the supreme great bliss, they appear in no form other than that of the great Sambogakaya of Akanishta Pure Land because their appearance as enemies and the conception of them as enemies has been severed. For example, just as enemies we don't even want to see or hear about can later become friends with whom we are inseparable, all are projections of nothing but our own mind."

Maybe this little paragraph from the Kangso can be a basis of my meditation on both HHDL and DS?

If the ban gets worse, Dorje Shugden will only get strongger:)

H1N1

[jessicajameson]

Having went through that period of depression, this went through my mind and it helps me. I hope by me sharing here will help u to overcome your current state of mind as well. I put myself in the shoes of a Tibetan refugee who was forced out of Tibet and to be living in exile with the rest of my own world of people in an alien land. To make things worse, I am not allowed to practice or propagate a sacred teaching my root guru has compassionately given me to help me cross the mountain plateau of Tibet to India. And this has to do directly with our lord savior Avalokiteshvara, Dalai Lama himself.

In mannerism of HHDL's effort to bring hope, comfort and liberation to his people, I salute and remain faithful and loyal to His Holiness. I believe He is an emanation of the Great Compassionate one without doubt because his strength being able to uphold a nation in exile for the past 50 years tells me that he is not a normal being with a secular motivation of power, else the TGIE would have dissolved and destroyed itself the minute they were booted out of their homeland.

If we do not take HHDL's ban and critism on Dorje Shugden as a form to present this sacred protector to the world, what else could it be. I take the same theory of having to sacrifice the entire Tibetan nation during the cultural revolution for Tibetan Buddhism to flourish in the entire world. If this didn't happened, most likely Tibetan Buddhism would have remained in Tibet and never grow out of its nation and eventually die in the highlands.

Likewise, this theory for the current suppression of DS lamas and suppression is just temporary in order to usher the era of Dorje Shugden which will be beneficial for the world now and in the near future.

Hope my little sharing helped. My advice, get over our personal agenda and perceptions. Life's better living for the 'Bigger picture' as we put it. Less of ourselves, more for others.

Cheer up!
H1N1

@HarryNephew I strongly agree with you that without the ban, Dorje Shugden wouldn't be as propitiated or as big as it is now or that (unfortunately) without the sacrifice of Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism would've probably saw itself contained within die in the highlands. HHDL had the foresight to see that without such drastic changes on a global scene most of us would not have ever gotten the opportunity to learn the Dharma.

Everything that's anti-HHDL seems to be pushed (with an incentive) in monasteries on China's soil. If practicing Dorje Shugden is perceived as being against HHDL's advice, with such a powerful nation with the largest global population propitiating DS, perhaps millions of lives will benefit. Both in spiritual practice and in their samsaric lives.

Thanks for sharing what you wrote, although I feel that it is really hard to accept the "bigger picture" with all those videos and personal accounts from Tibetans who have been physically shunned and harassed..

I must admit some anger towards HHDL (sorry) did arise in me when I saw how upset and distraught the Tibetans who practiced DS were. Some felt really betrayed and I had to really sit and contemplate on it for a long while, before I felt that there is no possible way that an emanation of Avalokiteshvara would knowingly allow this to happen without reason.

@Crazycloud It actually really wasn't personal, perhaps I should have used the word 'we' instead of 'you'.

[kurava]

Dear all,
Please read the House Rules.

Until we are enlightened the seed of harm whether intentionally or unintentionally is in us.
Rules and laws are necessary in countries or organizations for the benefit and protection of majority. If one doesn’t like the rules or judicial system of a place/community, one has the free choice to leave.

There is no point in staying within a community and not following the rules set by it.

I certainly look forward to learn more from this site through mutual respect and sharing.

Cheers!

[Lineageholder]

@HarryNephew I strongly agree with you that without the ban, Dorje Shugden wouldn't be as propitiated or as big as it is now or that (unfortunately) without the sacrifice of Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism would've probably saw itself contained within die in the highlands. HHDL had the foresight to see that without such drastic changes on a global scene most of us would not have ever gotten the opportunity to learn the Dharma.

Everything that's anti-HHDL seems to be pushed (with an incentive) in monasteries on China's soil. If practicing Dorje Shugden is perceived as being against HHDL's advice, with such a powerful nation with the largest global population propitiating DS, perhaps millions of lives will benefit. Both in spiritual practice and in their samsaric lives.

Dear Jessica,

How propitiated is Dorje Shugden now?  Only by a handful of those who used to.  How is this progress?  Dorje Shugden is 'big' only for those who are involved in the practice and that's relatively few, even amongst the Gelugpas who used to do the practice.  There's no evidence that the Chinese are actively promoting this practice and so any idea that Dorje Shugden is being practised by the most populous nation on earth is somewhat of a pipe dream, held only within the confines of this (small) forum.

Please don't deluded yourself into believing that what the Dalai Lama did actually helped anyone, apart from those who created tremendously good karma by engaging in demonstrations against the DL's ban over the past fourteen years. It's also somewhat stereotypical to believe that criticism of the DL comes from Chinese soil only.  I'm a Westerner living in England and I will continue to criticise the Dalai Lama until he renounces the union of Dharma and politics that he practises, which will probably be never.