Are you breaking your samaya to the Dalai Lama?

[Dharmapal]

Zhalmed Pawo makes an important point:

"If you have samaya with HHDL, you should not share any resources with DS-practitioners. Therefore why would anyone like that be here, in this forum, for instance? As no-one who holds the samaya to HHDL would not come here, whatever we talk here, can not harm the ears of those. Therefore we cannot be a cause for any samaya-splits, or breaks. Even if we here would all adore HHDL, we would still be DS-practitioners, and therefore no samaya-holding disciplse of HHDL should ever come here, unless they are already breaking their samaya by simply coming here. Merely being here, in this forum, is a cause for samaya to break towards HHDL, for this is a DS-forum."

If you want to remain faithful to the Dalai Lama, you should not be hanging out with Dorje Shugden practitioners. Period. That is what every Tibetan monk and lay person has been forced to put their signature to, those refusing were made to leave their monasteries.

The Dalai Lama could not have made it clearer that you cannot be both his disciple and a Dorje Shugden follower. He doesn't want Dorje Shugden followers at his teachings and says so regularly (and the FPMT also will not allow Shugden practitioners at their teachings now either, even though their founder was faithful to Dorje Shugden til his death). The Dalai Lama has said that no Dorje Shugden practitioner is a friend of his. And so on.

The Dalai Lama has made it an either/or. You can try to have your cake and eat it, but this is not what the Dalai Lama wishes. He asks you to choose. Faith in him or faith in Dorje Shugden.

Just a reminder also to those of you who don't know, Trijang Choktrul's disciples did attend the demonstrations asking the Dalai Lama to give religious freedom.

[thaimonk]

NKT members do not own this website.

So whoever you are, you may come to this website as far as I understand it.

This website according to mission statement is not a hate site against Dalai Lama.

Everyone is welcomed on this site and no one but the mission statement makes the parameters for this website as far as I read it.

So let's talk about issues that concern our dharma practice not rules and regulations of who and who cannot come here.

********

Mission Statement


This website, an ongoing work in progress, is dedicated to the glorification and deeper appreciation of the name and holy work of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who by peaceful, increasing, subjugating and wrathful means spreads in this world the general and profound teachings of the Buddhadharma that can dispel all suffering and its causes. We believe that what may sound contradictory today, will be revealed as skilful means in the future.

It is dedicated to the lineage Lamas, without whom the holy teachings would have disappeared, and without whose blessings, obtained by a pure bond of faith and reverence, the transmission is broken and the foundation of Enlightenment destroyed.

It is dedicated to the increasing number of aspiring practitioners who have been affected by the apparent controversy about the nature and intent of Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, whose enlightened mind and qualities have and are being recognized and relied upon by so many exalted Masters, some of them with reincarnation lineages all the way back to Buddha Shakyamuni.

We have no wish to convert or even convince anyone about this. In Buddhism we can only convert ourselves, by studying and applying the methods offered – if you practice Tara and become more arrogant and materialistic, it is a bad practice, as far as YOU are concerned. If you pray to Dorje Shugden and become more humble and committed to the Bodhisattva ideal, it is a good practice, as far as YOU are concerned. It is our thoughts, words and actions that make karma. It is our motivation that determines these.

We have a great wish to serve in healing the schism and doubts created in the minds of those new to Dharma or otherwise yet unable to look deeper and strive to apply the principles of non-harming and introspection on every level.

For those passing judgment on enlightened Beings (can you REALLY be sure who is and who is not?) – may we remind you of the Lamrim teachings where it is stated that converting anyone at the cost of their faith in their previous teachers or religion is equal to killing a thousand Buddhas. May we remind you that creating schism within the Sangha is one of the five “crimes of immediate retribution”. May we remind you of the Bodhisattva vow of never giving up Bodhicitta. If something or someone is harmful, misdirected etc., wouldn’t the sign of true practitioners be that their compassion grows?

For those who are influenced by these judgements – their door to Dharma may well close for this life, and who knows when such an opportunity will arise again. Anyone truly concerned could easily avoid the horrible karma created in this way, by truly practicing what they believe is good and becoming a shiny example of goodness and wisdom that speaks for itself.

It is dedicated to provide information and inspiration for those with an affinity to Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, based on writings, sayings, prayers and praises by enlightened Masters and their examples of wisdom and compassion, as well as on sharing interesting thoughts of intelligent people.

Much of our own thoughts and conclusions will have to remain in the realm of speculation, just like so much that has been written, as we are ordinary beings lacking the clairvoyance of the wise. We will, however, do so with the sole aim to present possible ways to see what arises as the display of enlightened minds, not the battle between right and wrong, so as to decrease afflictive emotions and actions and to invite us all to focus on our ongoing responsibility to look deeper; to look within.

“Drive all enemies into one,” as the old Kadampas said; the one (and only) enemy being of course the self-grasping and self-cherishing mind.

[thaimonk]

The current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is both friendly and disciple of Dalai Lama and also a practitioner of Dorje Shugden.

So he is leading an example of being able to reconcile with both sides. Good example.

**********************************************************

H.H. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche has already given a good indication of how he will manifest. By looking at his website you will see he is going to be (and already is) a great teacher: http://www.tbiusa.org

And before leaving for America he gave a very interesting interview with the Tibetan Radio in which he also makes clear his position in relation to DS:

“I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me…and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing…

I also don’t want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas*] would not let me.

I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness…

I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness…

Some have told me, ‘If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.’

It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me.

In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness’s government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.

[thor]

Zhalmed Pawo makes an important point:

"If you have samaya with HHDL, you should not share any resources with DS-practitioners. Therefore why would anyone like that be here, in this forum, for instance? As no-one who holds the samaya to HHDL would not come here, whatever we talk here, can not harm the ears of those. Therefore we cannot be a cause for any samaya-splits, or breaks. Even if we here would all adore HHDL, we would still be DS-practitioners, and therefore no samaya-holding disciplse of HHDL should ever come here, unless they are already breaking their samaya by simply coming here. Merely being here, in this forum, is a cause for samaya to break towards HHDL, for this is a DS-forum."

What then, if someone were to visit a non-DS Buddhist forum where the topic of discussion at hand is Dorje Shugden? There would be pro and anti DS parties - is that considered a breach of samaya?

I disagree. The nature of the modern information society is such that borders become invisible and information is available for all to share. To say that no disciple of HHDL should ever come here is false. Why not? They too deserve information and resources to make their own decisions and their own minds.

As Zhamed Palwo also eloquently writes in another thread, we are allowed to disagree and debate with our gurus  - not out of disrespect, but out of a true desire to understand. Hence by logic, it would be perfectly acceptable for a samaya-holding disciple of the Dalai Lama to visit this website and forum for the purposes of gaining information and understanding the issue. Most certainly, the resources available to them from so-called 'kosher' sources would be one-sided.

If I were the a disciple of such an attained master, I would do further research, study and contemplation on any topic or instruction that he saw fit to give me, in the hope of understanding more of what I have been asked to do. NOT to disagree or disobey his advice. Hence all should be welcome to this website and forum without fear of samaya-breakage. Information is information, period.

[DharmaDefender]

Zhalmed Pawo makes an important point:

"If you have samaya with HHDL, you should not share any resources with DS-practitioners. Therefore why would anyone like that be here, in this forum, for instance? As no-one who holds the samaya to HHDL would not come here, whatever we talk here, can not harm the ears of those. Therefore we cannot be a cause for any samaya-splits, or breaks. Even if we here would all adore HHDL, we would still be DS-practitioners, and therefore no samaya-holding disciplse of HHDL should ever come here, unless they are already breaking their samaya by simply coming here. Merely being here, in this forum, is a cause for samaya to break towards HHDL, for this is a DS-forum."

What then, if someone were to visit a non-DS Buddhist forum where the topic of discussion at hand is Dorje Shugden? There would be pro and anti DS parties - is that considered a breach of samaya?

I disagree. The nature of the modern information society is such that borders become invisible and information is available for all to share. To say that no disciple of HHDL should ever come here is false. Why not? They too deserve information and resources to make their own decisions and their own minds.

As Zhamed Palwo also eloquently writes in another thread, we are allowed to disagree and debate with our gurus  - not out of disrespect, but out of a true desire to understand. Hence by logic, it would be perfectly acceptable for a samaya-holding disciple of the Dalai Lama to visit this website and forum for the purposes of gaining information and understanding the issue. Most certainly, the resources available to them from so-called 'kosher' sources would be one-sided.

If I were the a disciple of such an attained master, I would do further research, study and contemplation on any topic or instruction that he saw fit to give me, in the hope of understanding more of what I have been asked to do. NOT to disagree or disobey his advice. Hence all should be welcome to this website and forum without fear of samaya-breakage. Information is information, period.

You make good points there duldzin. I'd also like to add - if we are going to say that HHDL supporters cannot come to this site to do further research or study (and we're going to use the samaya card against them!), then we can hardly accuse them of not understanding our point-of-view, when we discourage them from accessing resources that will help them to consider our point-of-view.

Surely learning about each other will form one of the basis for the controversy to fade away?

[WisdomBeing]

If samaya-holding disciples of the Dalai Lama come to this site and read about the points raised which counter the Dalai Lama's stance against Shugden, which are logical and straightforward, their minds might be changed towards Shugden. However, they might have inner conflict about the Dalai Lama.

If they also read and subscribe to the Dalai Lama's bigger picture theory, it will allow them a broader view of the Shugden issue - that Shugden practice is not wrong and they can maintain their right view of their Guru.

They will be able to change their opinion of Shugden practice without seeing their Guru as wrong. They may or may not practice Dorje Shugden but at least they will stop having a wrong view about Shugden.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

If samaya-holding disciples of the Dalai Lama come to this site and ...

HHDL has made it very clear that he does not want disciples who do associate with ruffians like us. Any student of HHDL should respect his wishes on this issue.

PS: HHDL does not support the "Big Picture" -theory. That theory is conceived by those, who hold onto HHDL while disregarding his straight comments about our practice.

[harrynephew]

If samaya-holding disciples of the Dalai Lama come to this site and ...

HHDL has made it very clear that he does not want disciples who do associate with ruffians like us. Any student of HHDL should respect his wishes on this issue.

PS: HHDL does not support the "Big Picture" -theory. That theory is conceived by those, who hold onto HHDL while disregarding his straight comments about our practice.

Hi ZP,

In previous times, in my earlier posts which refers to the bigger picture, I think it is not true to just say that we just have conceived of this theory. To me, many people regardless if they're Tibetans or not would not want to mean harm to HHDL and would keep DS as our spiritual practice. Like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, he's not against or for HHDL and DS simply because He wants to take the middling stand just like all our Lord and Master Je Tsongkhapa has done. I think we should sincerely do the same.

thanks
H1N1

[Big Uncle]

Zhalmed Pawo makes an important point:

"If you have samaya with HHDL, you should not share any resources with DS-practitioners. Therefore why would anyone like that be here, in this forum, for instance? As no-one who holds the samaya to HHDL would not come here, whatever we talk here, can not harm the ears of those. Therefore we cannot be a cause for any samaya-splits, or breaks. Even if we here would all adore HHDL, we would still be DS-practitioners, and therefore no samaya-holding disciplse of HHDL should ever come here, unless they are already breaking their samaya by simply coming here. Merely being here, in this forum, is a cause for samaya to break towards HHDL, for this is a DS-forum."

If you want to remain faithful to the Dalai Lama, you should not be hanging out with Dorje Shugden practitioners. Period. That is what every Tibetan monk and lay person has been forced to put their signature to, those refusing were made to leave their monasteries.

The Dalai Lama could not have made it clearer that you cannot be both his disciple and a Dorje Shugden follower. He doesn't want Dorje Shugden followers at his teachings and says so regularly (and the FPMT also will not allow Shugden practitioners at their teachings now either, even though their founder was faithful to Dorje Shugden til his death). The Dalai Lama has said that no Dorje Shugden practitioner is a friend of his. And so on.

The Dalai Lama has made it an either/or. You can try to have your cake and eat it, but this is not what the Dalai Lama wishes. He asks you to choose. Faith in him or faith in Dorje Shugden.

Just a reminder also to those of you who don't know, Trijang Choktrul's disciples did attend the demonstrations asking the Dalai Lama to give religious freedom.

I don't like Zhalmed's logic at all but I do like Duldzin's viewpoint. I think, this is not the middle ages where on the basis of samaya, one can cut off information from another person. On top of that, Thaimonk brought up an interesting point as well in his reply when he posted the mission statement of this website - in short, this is supposed to be neutral or non-bias website anyway, right? I like that non-bias nature of the information as I get a broader picture of what is happening and not just another one-sided 'Dalai Lama is lying' thingy.

On the other hand, I think the Big Picture is not a theory that needs the Dalai Lama's support. He is part of that picture and a rationalisation of his reasons for saying and doing the things that he does. The Bigger Picture observes that the ban has done very little to stop the growth of this practice and it also notices strange contractions like why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice and the bigger picture also notices that the practice is flourishing in China and how big China will become and perhaps be instrumental in spreading this practice to the world in the future. So, I don't think the Dalai Lama need to support this view but the result of what the view proposes is already happening. Large monasteries in China like Denma Gongsar Rinpoche's huge monastery and others are a haunting testament and indication of what is to come.

Just a sharing from...

Big Uncle

[WisdomBeing]

just to add... i hardly expect the Dalai lama to not support the bigger picture theory. He's unlikely to say oh by the way, I have a bigger picture in mind when i banned Dorje Shugden. It would be the last thing he would say i.e. he supports this theory because it would weaken the ban and the whole picture - bigger and smaller.

I don't know if you believe in HH Trijang Rinpoche. I do. And he advised: “Don’t lose faith in His Holiness – don’t lose faith in Dorje Shugden.” (from http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=134 - a very logical article examining the outer, inner and secret purpose of the controversial ban)

[Zhalmed Pawo]

just to add... i hardly expect the Dalai lama to not support the bigger picture theory. He's unlikely to say oh by the way, I have a bigger picture in mind when i banned Dorje Shugden. It would be the last thing he would say i.e. he supports this theory because it would weaken the ban and the whole picture - bigger and smaller.

Oh but this is so cute and wonderful. I hope we all could...

...but seriously, HHDL has repeatedly said what he has said. He has even threatened the non-conformists with something just like the Cultural Revolution, if they do not conform.

If your understanding of the actions of a Public Lama allows all that, then so be it - but do not come here to tell us about it.

[honeydakini]

The question that heads this thread assumes in the first place that people are disciples of the dalai lama when in fact this may not be the case. I imagine that there will be a lot of people out there who do NOT have the Dalai Lama as their Guru but are still torn within this issue and not sure what to follow or do.

There are also people out there - like myself - who are already DS practitioners but NOT followers of the Dalai Lama but at the same time, also wish to bring some balance to the situation: which is to show the world that it doesn't have to be about critiquing lamas and saying nasty, hateful things.

I strongly agree with Dulzin's point also that this is about getting more information and knowledge. This is very clear. Also, our motivation for being on here in the first place should be to learn so we can understand the situation better, NOT to take sides, denounce any sides or become political. Perhaps a DL follower may come here and gain a better view of what is going on in the lives and practice of DS practitioner - it could inspire him to be less hateful and aggressive towards DS practitioners. He may still choose to follow DL's instruction of not doing the practice but at the same time, getting more information may stop him from badmouthing other DS lamas etc isn't that the result of good practice? I would not see this as breaking samaya.

[shugdenprotect]

There are many reasons for everybody with sincere interest in the Dharma to be a part of this forum. In addition to the comments already posted, I would like to add that participation by all parties is what makes this forum rich with all angles of information and points of view.

It is also the presentation of views different from ours that gives us the opportunity to learn as well as strengthen our understanding about Dorje Shugden through constructive debate.

Lastly, being able to respond constructively to arguments that contradict our own beliefs develops our spirituality in the form of tolerance, awareness and management of our own ego etc.

All in all, this forum is a powerful learning ground for pure Dharma and all should be welcomed. This is in alignment not just to the forum mission but also the mission of the Dharma: to benefit ALL sentient beings.

[WisdomBeing]

If your understanding of the actions of a Public Lama allows all that, then so be it - but do not come here to tell us about it.

Why not? Do you own this website?  On whose behalf are you speaking for? Is my stating what i believe to be offensive to you?

[Dharmapal]

The point about this thread is not what WE as forum members want, but what the Dalai Lama would think of those of you who have faith in him polluting your minds and breaking your samaya by hanging out with us fascist Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Just a reminder of how much the Dalai Lama despises us:

Whoever fights against the Shugden spirit defends religious freedom. I compare this definitely to the Nazis in Germany. Whoever fights them defends human rights, since the freedom of Nazis is not freedom. — The 14th Dalai Lama

An example of Godwin’s Law, this quote is taken from the Dalai Lama’s interview with the well known, long-time Tibet observer, Klemens Ludwig (“Auch im Buddhismus gibt es gute und böse Kräfte” [Even in Buddhism there are Good and Evil Forces], Esotera, May 1998, p. 82).

The English translation is very precise. In German it says, “Wer also den Shugden-Geist bekämpft, verteidigt die Religionsfreiheit. Ich vergleiche das durchaus mit den Nazis in Deutschland. Wer sie bekämpft, verteidigt die Menschenrechte, denn die Freiheit der Nazis ist keine Freiheit.”