Questioning Dalai Lama Regarding Shugden

[DharmaDefender]

So 'wrong aspiration/negative prayer' is what caused Dorjee Shugden whose nature is but a 'vow-breaking demon/evil spirit' and whose actions are to 'harm the Dharma and humanity'. This is admitted by the Dolgyal himself in his autobiography.

How can Dorje Shugden be a vow-breaking demon if he has:
a) fulfill his aspiration of becoming a Dharma protector
b) all his previous incarnations were great masters, including Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen and Duldzin (holder of the vinaya)

Anybody know where is the source that refers to " is admitted by the Dolgyal himself in his autobiography"?

The problem with that second argument VP, is that some will argue back that Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen was a great master but did not become Dorje Shugden upon his death. They might also say that he was not a reincarnation of the many great masters before him (e.g. Panchen Sonam Drakpa). The trouble is that when it comes to events which happened so many years ago, people will always be able to throw the "well, you weren't there" argument back in your face. So as much as we insist that he is an incarnation of all of those great masters, what inarguable historical proof do we have of this, when even some Dorje Shugden practitioners don't believe in the tulku system? (despite the fact the tulku system led up to our Protector's manifestation!)

The proof must be in that which we can see now, for example the transformation of his practitioners, the controlled rebirth of the lineage holders, etc.

i think that a lot of this comes from ignorance - people just jumping on the bandwagon against shugden without actually finding out what a document said. Yes i agree with you that a lot of Sadhanas do have some pretty gory, violent language, and to the uninformed, they would probably think that oh my god (or Buddha), these practitioners kill people, whereas it's all actually just symbolic of our negativities etc.

Even from the kawang (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=57):

"Heart’s blood drinking offerings set out like the flow of the Ganges,
Flowers of the sense organs blossoming and clouds of smoke gathering,
Human bile perfume, flesh and blood, and the sound of thigh bone trumpets,
Please accept these as well as an ocean of undefiled nectar!"

and the Praise:

"Before myself, as yidam deity,
Amidst a wind swept dark red fire,
On lotus, sun, and splendid, frightening
Lion trampling enemies and obstructers,
Is the supreme heart-jewel of Dharmapalas,
Mighty Gyalchen, Dorje Shugden,
Body, beautified by robes of a monk,
Wearing the golden domed hat on his head,
Razor sword and enemy heart in his hands,
In a manner, pleased with the practitioner,
Fierce expression destroying enemies and obstructers,
Surrounded by oceans of retinues
Of attendants such as Kache Marpo,
Light rays from my heart invite
From the sphere of pure nature
And each palace, wherever they are,
The wisdom beings who, in one instant,
Become inseparable from the commitment beings!
DZA HUM BAM HO! "

People who do not know the symbolism will think that literally this protector wants blood!

Well, the anti-DS people do seem to be prone to making sweeping statements - if I'd a penny every time someone accused me of being on the Chinese payroll, I'd have paid off my student loan by now! I guess it didn't help my case when I told those people that if they were such perfect practitioners, then they shouldn't be afraid of spirits...but I've had that part of the kawang quoted to me countless times and to be honest, I'm blue in the face now explaining the symbolism behind the imagery.

[beggar]

So, if we engage in activities that seem to suggest violence, rudeness and etc - then, it will just seal such thoughts in others' minds about Dorje Shugden. They will undoubtedly say that the DS practitioners are as prone to violence as their Protector.

When we present information and facts about the Protector in a peaceful, clear and logical way - I believe the points will be conveyed most effectively.

Our behaviour of body, speech and mind will either turn people away from the Protector, or attract them to find out more about the Protector, or even cement the negative thoughts they already assume about the Protector.

said like a true practitioner. Thank you Helena dakini!

This is very true - for how many times have I come across people who have told me they don't want to have anything to do with dorjeshugden because they are turned off by seeing and hearing people speaking badly against the dalai lama; then there are people who are turned away from the dalai lama because they also see how badly dalai lama's students behave. There are people who are turned off religion completely because they see the actions of extremists in all different religions around the world. This problem of bad behaviour is not specific just to buddhist or ds practitioners!

we are the best advertisers of this great "product" we are promoting to the world - our practice. So if we can't show any good result from the product, what are we advertising. People don't want your product if it makes you a nastier and more unpleasant person to be with.

I think you are setting a very good example helena and showing the way towards a peaceful future. If your example is anything to come by, the future of DS practice and Tsongkhapa's holy lineage is a bright, beautiful one!

thanks for being a beacon of peaceful light in these uncertain times.

yours, beggar

[Ensapa]

said like a true practitioner. Thank you Helena dakini!

This is very true - for how many times have I come across people who have told me they don't want to have anything to do with dorjeshugden because they are turned off by seeing and hearing people speaking badly against the dalai lama; then there are people who are turned away from the dalai lama because they also see how badly dalai lama's students behave. There are people who are turned off religion completely because they see the actions of extremists in all different religions around the world. This problem of bad behaviour is not specific just to buddhist or ds practitioners!

we are the best advertisers of this great "product" we are promoting to the world - our practice. So if we can't show any good result from the product, what are we advertising. People don't want your product if it makes you a nastier and more unpleasant person to be with.

I think you are setting a very good example helena and showing the way towards a peaceful future. If your example is anything to come by, the future of DS practice and Tsongkhapa's holy lineage is a bright, beautiful one!

thanks for being a beacon of peaceful light in these uncertain times.

yours, beggar

This is another post that I find it worth resurrecting. Yes, as Dorje Shugden practitioners, we should really be more careful of our conduct and it should really reflect Dorje Shugden and the Gelug tradition and philosophies well. It will not be a good thing if our conduct cements the wrong views that people have against Dorje Shugden practitioners, that they are rude, aggressive and they hate the Dalai Lama and these are not the actions of Buddhists at all. By creating the wrong impression of Dorje Shugden in the minds of people, we are actually doing something counter productive: we are turning people away from Dorje Shugden as opposed to bringing them to Dorje Shugden. Thus, we of this forum should always be mindful of our body, speech and mind, keeping in mind that we not only represent our Gurus and Buddhists in general, but also Dorje Shugden as well, which is why we have to be even more kind, even more compassionate and even more subdued than non-practitioners. With these results, nobody can say that Dorje Shugden is bad anymore.

Humans are social creatures, and they learn the most not from words on paper but via live examples and actions. This is the reason why reading about tantra and being taught tantra by a fully qualified teacher has huge differences, whereby someone who learns it from reading alone cannot get any results no matter how much he or she practices, but someone who receives direct instructions and training from a fully qualified teacher can gain results from Tantric practice, because the teacher is a living example of the teachings and therefore the impression of the teachings in the mind of the practitioner is stronger. Similarly, if Dorje Shugden practitioners show great spiritual progress and act many times kinder, braver and stronger than the anti Dorje Shugden people, it will shut them up and it will shut CTA up as people will wonder how can such wonderful people possibly be evil.