Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation should be called Zimkhang Gongma Rinpoche...

[Big Uncle]

This was extracted from the wikipedia site on Drepung Monastery:-

Old records show that there were two centres of power in Drepung: the so-called lower chamber (Zimkhang 'og ma) associated with the Dalai Lamas-to-be, and the upper chamber (Zimkhang gong ma) associated with the descendants of
Sonam Drakpa, an illustrious teacher who died in 1554. The estate of the Dalai Lamas at Drepung monastery, called Ganden Phodrang, had been constructed in 1518 by Gendun Gyatso Palzangpo (1476–1541), retrospectively named and counted as 2nd Dalai Lama.

Penchen Sönam Drakpa (1478-1554 CE) in 1535 succeeded Gendün Gyatso (1476–1541) on the Throne of Drepung, both of them being major figures in the history of the Geluk tradition. By the time Sönam Drakpa was appointed to the Throne of Drepung (Drepung Tri), he was already a famous Geluk master. He had already occupied the Throne of Ganden (Ganden Tri) and was considered the most prolific and important Geluk thinker of his time. His successor was none other than Sönam Gyatso (1543-1588 CE), the lama who would receive the official title of the Third Dalai Lama (Talé Lama Kutreng Sumpa).

Before his death in 1554, Sönam Drakpa established his own estate, the Upper Chamber (Zimkhang Gongma), which was named because of its location at the top of Drepung, just below the Ngakpa debating courtyard "Ngakpa Dratsang".

Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center attributes the following name variants to Penchen Sönam Drakpa: "bsod nams grags pa [ primaryName ], paN chen bsod nams grags pa [ title ], khri bsod nams grags pa [Primary Title], rtses thang paN chen bsod nams grags pa [ title ], gzims khang gong ma bsod nams grags pa [ title ], this last one referring to the Seat of the Upper Chamber established in 1554. According to TBRC, his successors referring to the estate of the Zimkhang Gongma were Sonam Yeshe Wangpo (1556-92), Sonam Gelek Palzang (1594-1615) and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen (1619-1656) - closely connected to the famous story of Dorje Shugden. (Some say that Drakpa Gyeltsen was Sönam Drakpa’s second reincarnation, but usually he is considered to be the 4th incarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa). It seems to be commonly accepted that Dragpa Gyaltsen was the fourth holder of the "gzims khang gong ma" incarnation line. According to Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center, Zimkhang Gongma Drakpa Gyeltsen (gzims khang gong ma grags pa rgyal mtshan) has been his "Primary Title". Since the search for his reincarnation has been banned, he has been the last one.

[beggar]

yes, that's right. The line of incarnations following panchen sonam drakpa are referred to with the Zimkhang gongma title.

This can be seen in BigUncle's extract above, where one of PDS's names was also Zimkhang Gongma Sonam Drakpa, and all his proceeding successors are referred to by this title.

[Helena]

I didn't know about this. Thank you so much for enriching our knowledge by sharing it all with us.

This is why I enjoy this Forum, I keep learning new things.

There is always something new to read and understand.

Thanks again.

[thor]

Old records show that there were two centres of power in Drepung: the so-called lower chamber (Zimkhang 'og ma) associated with the Dalai Lamas-to-be, and the upper chamber (Zimkhang gong ma) associated with the descendants of
Sonam Drakpa, an illustrious teacher who died in 1554.

Before his death in 1554, Sönam Drakpa established his own estate, the Upper Chamber (Zimkhang Gongma), which was named because of its location at the top of Drepung, just below the Ngakpa debating courtyard "Ngakpa Dratsang".

Just wanted to be clear about this - some people think Upper chamber denoted Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's status as being higher than the Dalai Lama's Lower Chamber, but it was purely due to the location of the two.

It seems to be commonly accepted that Dragpa Gyaltsen was the fourth holder of the "gzims khang gong ma" incarnation line. According to Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center, Zimkhang Gongma Drakpa Gyeltsen (gzims khang gong ma grags pa rgyal mtshan) has been his "Primary Title". Since the search for his reincarnation has been banned, he has been the last one.

The Shamarpa's reincarnation was banned by order of the Dalai Lama in 1792 and this ban remained in place until after the Dalai Lama lost power in Tibet during the 1950s, although it was later revealed that the Karmapa had recognized reincarnations of the Shamarpa secretly during the intervening period.

Conversely, Pabongka was never formally recognised as Chankya Rolpai Doje.

Perhaps there will be another Zimkhang Gongma Rinpoche now, if the announcement on the front page has substance, since historically it is not impossible for a banned incarnation to reclaim his title

[Helena]

Thanks for the clarification, Duldzin. It certainly gives much food for thought about the announcement on the main page of this website.

Old records show that there were two centres of power in Drepung: the so-called lower chamber (Zimkhang 'og ma) associated with the Dalai Lamas-to-be, and the upper chamber (Zimkhang gong ma) associated with the descendants of
Sonam Drakpa, an illustrious teacher who died in 1554.

Before his death in 1554, Sönam Drakpa established his own estate, the Upper Chamber (Zimkhang Gongma), which was named because of its location at the top of Drepung, just below the Ngakpa debating courtyard "Ngakpa Dratsang".

Just wanted to be clear about this - some people think Upper chamber denoted Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's status as being higher than the Dalai Lama's Lower Chamber, but it was purely due to the location of the two.

It seems to be commonly accepted that Dragpa Gyaltsen was the fourth holder of the "gzims khang gong ma" incarnation line. According to Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center, Zimkhang Gongma Drakpa Gyeltsen (gzims khang gong ma grags pa rgyal mtshan) has been his "Primary Title". Since the search for his reincarnation has been banned, he has been the last one.

The Shamarpa's reincarnation was banned by order of the Dalai Lama in 1792 and this ban remained in place until after the Dalai Lama lost power in Tibet during the 1950s, although it was later revealed that the Karmapa had recognized reincarnations of the Shamarpa secretly during the intervening period.

Conversely, Pabongka was never formally recognised as Chankya Rolpai Doje.

Perhaps there will be another Zimkhang Gongma Rinpoche now, if the announcement on the front page has substance, since historically it is not impossible for a banned incarnation to reclaim his title

[kurava]

I think its great to adopt this new ‘ title’ because it is officious, give a sense of history, and adds authenticity to the current reincarnation line. This will instill confidence and faith for those new to the idea of reincarnate Lamas in the Tibetan tradition.
Thanks Duldzin for clarifying.

[WisdomBeing]

Further to what Dulzin said - This is the same as the Upper and Lower Tantric Colleges of Gyuto and Gyumed. One is not better than the other but it is wrongly assumed by some.

I believe people may ban the recognition of an incarnation but the incarnation will keep returning to benefit sentient beings - whether the incarnation is officially recognised or not. After all, how can anyone limit a Buddha?

As to the announcement of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation - even though the Dalai Lama does not recognise him, there are many eminent Lamas (and of course Dorje Shugden himself or his entourage through the oracle) who will be able to confirm his status. So we shall just have to wait and see.

[LosangKhyentse]

Old records show that there were two centres of power in Drepung: the so-called lower chamber (Zimkhang 'og ma) associated with the Dalai Lamas-to-be, and the upper chamber (Zimkhang gong ma) associated with the descendants of
Sonam Drakpa, an illustrious teacher who died in 1554.

Before his death in 1554, Sönam Drakpa established his own estate, the Upper Chamber (Zimkhang Gongma), which was named because of its location at the top of Drepung, just below the Ngakpa debating courtyard "Ngakpa Dratsang".

Just wanted to be clear about this - some people think Upper chamber denoted Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's status as being higher than the Dalai Lama's Lower Chamber, but it was purely due to the location of the two.

It seems to be commonly accepted that Dragpa Gyaltsen was the fourth holder of the "gzims khang gong ma" incarnation line. According to Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center, Zimkhang Gongma Drakpa Gyeltsen (gzims khang gong ma grags pa rgyal mtshan) has been his "Primary Title". Since the search for his reincarnation has been banned, he has been the last one.

The Shamarpa's reincarnation was banned by order of the Dalai Lama in 1792 and this ban remained in place until after the Dalai Lama lost power in Tibet during the 1950s, although it was later revealed that the Karmapa had recognized reincarnations of the Shamarpa secretly during the intervening period.

Conversely, Pabongka was never formally recognised as Chankya Rolpai Doje.

Perhaps there will be another Zimkhang Gongma Rinpoche now, if the announcement on the front page has substance, since historically it is not impossible for a banned incarnation to reclaim his title

Dear Dulzin,

Excellent and clear points. I fully agree with your analysis and conclusion. The announcement on the front page must have substance or why announce, but let's wait and see. We reserve our conclusions and let everything unfold. If they ever unfold in the manner of our perceptions and long-falsely-held views of how things 'SHOULD' be.

I prefer to be positive about matters of this nature rather to strike it down. We are few and need to unite.  I do  not have enough wisdom, no clairvoyance,and not enough background information to pass opinions on any reincarnations. For me, if the Monastery and Dorje Shugden accept them, so shall I. After all, everything I believe in the Monastery and Dorje Shugden accepts. That has been our basis of belief irregardless of our own reflections/debates.


tk

[DSFriend]

Have u noticed while reading biographies of tulkus, emphasis are placed on geographical locations of birth place and monasteries. I've often wondered what's the significance of this phenomena. Tulkus tend to reincarnate back to similar previous birth place, spiritual lineage and monasteries as in the case in Zimkhang Gongma.
Well, knowing the line/lineage of incarnation is obviously important as it shows the attainments/qualities but what about the birth place?

[thor]

Have u noticed while reading biographies of tulkus, emphasis are placed on geographical locations of birth place and monasteries. I've often wondered what's the significance of this phenomena. Tulkus tend to reincarnate back to similar previous birth place, spiritual lineage and monasteries as in the case in Zimkhang Gongma.
Well, knowing the line/lineage of incarnation is obviously important as it shows the attainments/qualities but what about the birth place?

Incarnate Lamas tend to return to their previous lives monasteries, where they are enthroned. Their labrangs are also there, where the students will ensure the young incarnation is properly cared for, educated, and continues to turn the wheel of Dharma as their are meant to. I mean, just look at huge projects and organisations such as NKT or FPMT. If it wasnt for the controversy, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's next reincarnation would surely be welcomed back into Sera.

I don't know if tulkus always reincarnate in the same location but I can see the significance of why the birthplace is important. Lamas have control over where they choose to reincarnate, choosing a place that is most suitable for that time. I would imagine that the significance of the geographical location is because some lamas will predict the location of their next incarnation, or some form of divination is done, or the monastic oracles are consulted. Hence the location is of interest to verify the accuracy of the predictions.

[honeydakini]

In this day and age, there are also many accounts of tulkus who are being recognised outside the usual sphere of Tibet / India / Nepal.

I have heard many, many stories of how these high Lamas give very clear instructions as to where they will be reborn next, and not necessarily in the same place as the current place of abode or monastic living. With the world so small now, even tulkus who are born in Spain, Brazil and America can still join the monasteries in India from a young age for their monastic education anyway, and they do that. An example of Lama Gangchen's main disciple Lama Michel, for example; Lama Yeshe/Osel, etc etc

In light of current political situations, it also seems that many tulkus are taking rebirth in countries where they cannot be "touched" by the Tibetan government (such as in Mongolia, Taiwan, China etc) and where they can continue their activities unhindered. A whole new generation of teachers seem to be very clearly arising all over the world, far beyond the Tibetan sphere.

So pish to the TGIE.

[Lineageholder]

I mean, just look at huge projects and organisations such as NKT or FPMT. If it wasnt for the controversy, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's next reincarnation would surely be welcomed back into Sera.

Geshe Kelsang's next incarnation is not going to be recognised.  In NKT we have an internal rule about not relying on the tulku system:  there will be no incarnation lineages in the NKT because it's too unreliable in these degenerate times.  People will be recognised by the merit of their qualities, not their titles.

[thor]

I mean, just look at huge projects and organisations such as NKT or FPMT. If it wasnt for the controversy, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's next reincarnation would surely be welcomed back into Sera.

Geshe Kelsang's next incarnation is not going to be recognised.  In NKT we have an internal rule about not relying on the tulku system:  there will be no incarnation lineages in the NKT because it's too unreliable in these degenerate times.  People will be recognised by the merit of their qualities, not their titles.

Why would a proven system and tradition of tulku recognition become suddenly unreliable in these modern times? Especially a system that forms the backbone of the Tibetan tradition that we follow, and has produced so many masters. Different parties with vested interests may seek to disrupt or corrupt the existing system for their own ends, but that does not render the system itself invalid. Look at the many great masters that have been recognised through this system - unmistaken incarnations of lamas upon lamas have been recognised, educated, turned the wheel of dharma and benefited many. And thru the recognition and enthronement process, these young incarnate lamas had the opportunity to start the Dharma from a very young age, to "develop" their minds quickly to the level that we already know they are at, and are waiting patiently for. The sooner they finish their education, the sooner they can resume their life's purposes of benefiting others!

Just like Buddha's 84,000 teachings are still valid and absolutely true today, the theory remains correct but perhaps adapted a little to be of more use and applicable to modern practitioners.

For Geshe-la to not want his incarnation to be recognised has precedence. Other lamas have said so in the past too...

[Helena]

What Geshe-La choose to do with his students and Centre is his perogative.

However there are many High Lamas and Centres who choose to continue in relying on the Tulku System.

They are not wrong in doing so and that is not to say that the Tulku System is unreliable because there are more living proofs that they are reliable and authentic.

I think every Guru has his own reasons for implementing a certain 'internal rule'. It is more to reflect the 'demographics' of his students more than anything else. Hence, it is pertaining to the mind set and 'attitude' of his students and centre.

After all, every Guru would only teach according to what the students need and can 'undertake'.

In any case, I am more inclined to agree with Duldzin's points.

Every Teacher will modify accordingly for the benefit of his students. Different students in different centers may require different set of rules and teaching style altogether.

[Vajraprotector]

I would like to share something I read:

Recognizing certain people as tulkus- incarnates of great masters-is a Tibetan cultural event. It isn’t Buddhism, although it doesn’t contradict Buddha’s teachings. The Tibetans invented this system of looking for and recognizing incarnations of great masters.  These tulkus received excellent education and guidance when they were young. This system was also a way to pass on property and power in Old Tibet. Just because a culture doesn’t have a tulku system, it doesn’t mean there are no bodhisattvas there. Likewise, just because someone is recognized as an incarnate doesn’t mean that he or she is a bodhisattva. That person might have a great deal of positive potential but hasn’t yet entered the Mahayana path of accumulation. Or there might been incorrect identification.

From: How to Free Your Mind: Tara the Liberator by Thubten Chodron, Page 165



NKT is an independent organization and not related to a “headquarters” monastery and Geshe-la’s stand is to not encourage Tulku sytem & oracles in NKT. So who could NKT trust in locating/ recognizing the unmistaken incarnation of Geshe-la? There is also a risk that due to the size  (not to mention wealth) of NKT, there could be a risk of corruption and not enthroning the correct incarnation. The acceptance of an incarnation is only by those who have faith & trust in the authority that is recognising the incarnation.

Stopping the recognition of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s incarnation is Geshe-la’s wish to ensure a democratic meritocracy-based institution where the head is an appointed office, not a reincarnation lineage, just like the position of Ganden Tripa which Gyaltsab Rinpoche took on after Tsongkhapa’s passing. This is why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has appointed a successor and put that system in place. Nothing wrong with that kind of system and it doesn't clash with the Tulku system either.

Having said that, it doesn’t mean that Geshe-la won’t reincarnate back. Out of humility, Geshe-la could reincarnate back to be a “plain” layperson who later becomes the successor of the current successor without being officially recognised, why not?
 
Also as what has been said by everyone, it doesn't mean the Tulku system doesn't work, just because an organisation doesn't want to implement the system. The Tulku system has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial and it continues till today. It also ensures those with great potentials are put in the best position for them to continue their previous life's work faster and get a head start. Many times, it was the master's own instruction for his incarnation to be recognised so that he can quickly assume his previous life's "duties".