Shugden Arising As A Yidam

[andrew paisley]

Please exuse my ignorance and laziness,as I havent really read these posts properly,but from looking at the title..this is my point of view. The Yidam ,Deity,Guru and Dharma protector are all one. I was practising Dorje Shugden before id recieved an empowerment and also was attempting to generate as a Deity before id had an empowerment...id read instructions on generating Bodhichitta(and there are different ways) and this particular instruction was called bringing the result into the path.With a wish to move from aspiring Bodhichitta to engaging Bodhichitta..and then meditate on emptiness and from that emptiness the Deity appears,not other than emptiness. also i believe "taking and giving" a pure tantric-like practice as it involves the belief of "oneself" as a Wish granting Jewel..in one version..all similar.
So when i did my Heart Jewel or Wishfulfiling Jewel practice..even tho id not recieved an empowerment..when i got to the part,"I have the clarity of the yidam"..i just went with it....this may or may not be correct,but it seemed to work for me..and the OM Ah HUm meditation was great preparation for "more advanced" practices as well. Im not familiar with a practice of actually generating as Dorje Shugden..but surely if he is a Wisdom Buddha then we would be anyway...is this making any sense?..either way i think that we can practice Dorje shugden,recite his mantra etc..make offerings to him regardless if weve had an empowerment or not..i did anyhow..and recieved his protection and blessings...i will know go and look at the posts properly now and apologize if this has no relevance to them!

[beggar]

Please exuse my ignorance and laziness,as I havent really read these posts properly,but from looking at the title..this is my point of view. The Yidam ,Deity,Guru and Dharma protector are all one. I was practising Dorje Shugden before id recieved an empowerment and also was attempting to generate as a Deity before id had an empowerment...id read instructions on generating Bodhichitta(and there are different ways) and this particular instruction was called bringing the result into the path.With a wish to move from aspiring Bodhichitta to engaging Bodhichitta..and then meditate on emptiness and from that emptiness the Deity appears,not other than emptiness. also i believe "taking and giving" a pure tantric-like practice as it involves the belief of "oneself" as a Wish granting Jewel..in one version..all similar.
So when i did my Heart Jewel or Wishfulfiling Jewel practice..even tho id not recieved an empowerment..when i got to the part,"I have the clarity of the yidam"..i just went with it....this may or may not be correct,but it seemed to work for me..and the OM Ah HUm meditation was great preparation for "more advanced" practices as well. Im not familiar with a practice of actually generating as Dorje Shugden..but surely if he is a Wisdom Buddha then we would be anyway...is this making any sense?..either way i think that we can practice Dorje shugden,recite his mantra etc..make offerings to him regardless if weve had an empowerment or not..i did anyhow..and recieved his protection and blessings...i will know go and look at the posts properly now and apologize if this has no relevance to them!

Hi Andrew,
Thank you for sharing. It is always very interesting and inspiring to hear of other people practicing so sincerely. However, please do be careful about doing practices without proper empowerments/initiations as there are sometimes commitments you need to keep to (like vows, or a commitment to do a certain number of prayers / yogas etc a day). Or there may certain specific requirements that you may need to fulfil before doing the practices.

It can be dangerous if we are doing these practices without proper guidance because sometimes we are dealing very directly with our energy channels and if we do not do it properly, it can affect our spiritual practices now or in the future.

I would recommend, like what others have already been saying here, to focus first on doing the kangsol, mantras, praises of Dorje Shugden. This is very powerful also – it will help you to create a lot of grand merit to support your higher practices later and it will also clear a lot of obstacles for you.

I hope this is helpful. Please do not take any offence in what I have said because I do not mean to in any way.

Yours, beggar

[WoselTenzin]

Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.

tk

The thought of having Dorje Shugden as our Yidam with full generation and completion stages of highest yoga tantra is indeed very exciting.  If we have strong faith in Dorje Shugden, having Dorje Shugden as our protector as well as our Yidam at the same time would be very powerful practice.   

As TK has mentioned,  if the practice text is given by Dorje Shugden himself or a highly accomplished Dorje Shugden Lama, it would be first of its kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and can grant quick attainment.   I would definitely be the first one to queue up for the initiation of such practice if it come into being in the future.  How wonderful it would be if this happens!!

[dsnowlion]

If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.

The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.

Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.

I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.

In my opinion, coming from a non Tibetan culture, I find the Tulku system not just logical but also a evidence to many that reincarnation, controlling your mind, rebirth and hence Enlightenment possible. It is definitely helpful to preserve this system as it shows the whole theory of taking a controlled rebirth NOT a theory, and NOT something made up.

Yes it also makes one think and realize that practicing Dorje Shugden - is not "EVIL". IF it was "EVIL", then WHY are all the high Lamas accused of practicing a demon back as humans benefiting so many and not in the 3 lower realms? So either the Buddhas teaching is faulty or Dorje Shugden is obviously NOT EVIL. 

Hence, I really like this Tulku system and I hope it will be well preserved into the future for our next generation to witness the power of the mind of these great masters who give us hope we too can one day control our own minds

[dsnowlion]

When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas.  Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of  incense to Dorje Shugden.

Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.

tk

I wish and pray that the above will become a reality one day soon! Imagine, a Protector of our times, Dorje Shugden can be practiced as a Yidam!

It would be amazing to perpetuate Yidam and Protector together literally Certainly the blessings and attainments would be so much more swifter as it is said that (Tsongkhapa/Manjushri) Dorje Shugden  manifested strictly to suit the people of this day an age that have such huge negative karma.

Of course Buddhas can manifest in any way they deem fit to help the minds of the people at that time. They are omniscience.  Even Vajrayogini appeared in so many different pose to suit different time/lineages and our lineage happens to be the Naro Kacho one based on Naropa's vision. Hey even the Hats can change from red to yellow, so why can't Buddhas change to suit the people's needs? So WHY NOT DS as Yidam & Protector? ...Is it Necessary? Well we'll let the Buddhas decide that one shall we heeee.

It's very possible I think and in a way I do hope Dorje Shugden does say Yes through an Oracle and for one of the great masters, as mentioned above by TK, to compose the 1st of it's kind highest yoga tantra text. I sure will be in line too

And Because Dorje Shugden is swift in granting blessings and attainments esp when you have clean "samaya" with your Guru, many people will see results and their faith in Dharma will become stronger.

Thanks TK, This Great Thought may well be a spark that may create the cause for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a Yidam and Protector in the near future by countless beings!

[Lineageholder]

This isn't going to happen because Dorje Shugden is the protector aspect of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang.  He's a PROTECTOR not a yidam and that's his particular aspect and function. If you check Kangso, Dorje Shugden and his retinue are propitiated after the Gurus, Yidams and Three Jewels.

For example, according to aspect and function, Vajrayogini is not a Guru or a Protector.  Each Deity has a particular aspect and function.

[lightning]

This isn't going to happen because Dorje Shugden is the protector aspect of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang.  He's a PROTECTOR not a yidam and that's his particular aspect and function. If you check Kangso, Dorje Shugden and his retinue are propitiated after the Gurus, Yidams and Three Jewels.

For example, according to aspect and function, Vajrayogini is not a Guru or a Protector.  Each Deity has a particular aspect and function.

I have been trying to explain this eariler...

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Lineage Holder and Lightning,

Dorje Shugden may have manifested as a Protector now, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he cannot be a Yidam as well. If we say he cannot be a Yidam, are we not saying that the Buddha has limitations? After all, Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

I refer to what thai monk says below in reply to crazy cloud which supports this.

This would be entirely unnecessary.

Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.

This would be unnecessary or not is not up to you or me. It is a request. Let Dulzin himself decide if it is unnecessary or necessary when the request is made. Maybe now a form of Dorje Shugden as a yidam would be necessary. Je Tsongkpa as a yidam does not have generation and completion stages and it is one of the lower tantras. So theoretically not able to bring us to enlightenment in one short lifetime. The lower tantras are practiced to remove immediate obstacles to enlightenment such as Medicine Buddha for disease, White Manjushri for quick wisdom, Vajrapani for removing obstacles. But then the higher tantras must be engaged for actual enlightenment.

Yamantaka, red manjushri, black Manjushri, White Manjushri, 13-deity  Yamantaka, Yellow Manjushri exists. There are so many forms of Manjushri as a Yidam. They appear as an when needed. So nothing wrong if Manjushri Dorje Shugden appears as a full fledged annuttara tantra Yidam. If I have great faith in Dorje Shugden and he appears as a Yidam,  I would practice him above other yidams immediately.

Other great tantric texts have been written by qualified masters, so this would require such a master. As these sadhanas are not scholastic pieces of work, they need someone of the highest calibre to write them. Who can write, I haven't any idea. But it would be great if Dulzin himself composes it through his oracles. Just like his divination text was composed through the oracle. Many people have recieved Avalokitesvara initiation while Dorje Shugden was in trance through Choyang Dulzin Kuten.

Yes, Yamantaka exists both as a yidam and protector. He can be worshipped/propitiated as both or either. So why not Shugden. Four Face Mahakala and Kalarupa are emanations of Manjushri also. There is no limit to Manjushri's emanations. As time progresses and there is a need, I am sure the compassionate Manjushri will appear in so many new forms unheard of . It is not for us to say yay or nay. Just rejoice.

It is up to others if they wish to practice Shugden as a yidam or not. But no one has the right to say right or wrong.

[honeydakini]

This isn't going to happen because Dorje Shugden is the protector aspect of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang.  He's a PROTECTOR not a yidam and that's his particular aspect and function. If you check Kangso, Dorje Shugden and his retinue are propitiated after the Gurus, Yidams and Three Jewels.

For example, according to aspect and function, Vajrayogini is not a Guru or a Protector.  Each Deity has a particular aspect and function.

if you're going to say that, then Yamantaka could not exist as both a protector and a yidam.

If you're going to say this, then it means that the Buddhas' capabilities are limited.

From the side of Dorje Shugden (or indeed Vajrayogini or any other Buddha), they can be any of Guru, Yidam, Protector, Dakini to us. It is as TK has already explained that it is the way in which the path is presented that "makes" them either a protector or a Yidam TO US. It is how WE do the practice and propitiate them that determines the level or "type" of benefit that we receive from them. As Buddhas, from their side, they have the total ability to grant us any kind of enlightened assistance and blessings.

Their function and roles are certainly not as limited as you have presented it; if it were, then how can they be fully enlightened beings?

[lightning]

Dear Lineage Holder and Lightning,

Dorje Shugden may have manifested as a Protector now, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he cannot be a Yidam as well. If we say he cannot be a Yidam, are we not saying that the Buddha has limitations? After all, Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

I refer to what thai monk says below in reply to crazy cloud which supports this.

I apologised that I agreed too fast in my eariler reply and I do agree that DS can manifest as a Yidam. What I feel that there is too much emphasis on the protector itself over here and I believe that Dorje Shugden would be more happy if we put in more efforts in our Guru Yoga, Yidam and LamRim itself first. If we make more efforts in practicing Dharma, the protectors have samaya to protect us even if we do not practice protector. Like the rest, I do wish to have Dorje Shugden Empowerment too and it is good to rely on such a qualified protector, but I felt that more emphasis should be on the Dharma.

Lineage holder is right in a way that every individual Yidam has its undeniable primary functions such as Yamantaka is exists a Highest Yoga Tantra Yidam, Mahakala exist as a protector, Vajrapani as Kriya Tantra Yidam. No doubt that they are Buddhas but they have different roles and functions ultimately. We cannot practise and treat Vajrapani as a highest yoga tantra yidam. Also there is a vast difference if two person would to practise HYT Yamanataka and Vajrapani and we must be clear about this.

Base on my understanding, Dorje Shugden is not a highest yoga tantra yidam due to the oral transmission difference and there is no channel, subtle winds and drop practise involved also, but He is a protector to the highest yoga tantra yidam.

At times, I may appear to be a wet blanket, but ultimately I meant well.

Best Regards,
Lightning

[LosangKhyentse]

Having anything to do with Dorje Shugden in any way, shape or form is the pure dharma.

His body shows the complete path of Lam Rim.

His mind is all omniscient.

He has achieved full oneness with Guyasamaja.

Remembering,seeing, contemplating on Dorje Shugden would earn one great waves of merit beyond calculation.

His is Manjushri in peaceful, wrathful, controlling, mystical and protective forms. He is Manjushri as a Yidam, Bodhisattva, a Buddha, a Daka and also dharma protector.

Taking full refuge in Dorje Shugden is the same as taking refuge in the complete ultimate emptiness and great bliss inherent in all Buddhas.

Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.

tk

[Lineageholder]

Although Dorje Shugden embodies the good qualities of all enlightened beings, so does Buddha Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and all other Buddhas.  I agree with Lightning - there is too much emphasis on Dorje Shugden practice at the expense of actual lamrim, lojong and Mahamudra meditation which are the actual precious jewels that Dorje Shugden has sworn to protect.  As I said on another thread, too much enthusiasm for Dorje Shugden practice gets us the title 'Shugdenites' from those who oppose the practice because all they can see is that we are talking endlessly about Dorje Shugden and little else.  It seems that DS is the main event, which is not the case, is it?  I'd rather be known as a Kadampa, someone for whom lamrim is their main practice.

It must seem to them as if our main practice is the worship of Dorje Shugden and there is no doubt that we've contributed to that view through overemphasizing the importance of the practice.  The Dalai Lama has tried to make the argument that we regard DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni.  Well meaning but ultimately naive postings on this forum and the distribution of DS brochures doubtlessly support this view so we're not doing ourselves any favours in my view.

That's my twopenceworth with which none of you will agree, as usual.  I think I'm on a different planet to you guys 

[lightning]

Adding another point is that Dorje Shugden practise does not have self intiaition, whereas highest yoga tantra yidams like Yamantaka have.

[Losang_Tenpa]

 Here is a copy of the Kangwa extracted from the Kangso. I made small marks in yellow where it begins and ends.



Here is the Shagpa:



If you would like the full-size image, email me at [email protected]

[WisdomBeing]

Although Dorje Shugden embodies the good qualities of all enlightened beings, so does Buddha Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and all other Buddhas.  I agree with Lightning - there is too much emphasis on Dorje Shugden practice at the expense of actual lamrim, lojong and Mahamudra meditation which are the actual precious jewels that Dorje Shugden has sworn to protect.  As I said on another thread, too much enthusiasm for Dorje Shugden practice gets us the title 'Shugdenites' from those who oppose the practice because all they can see is that we are talking endlessly about Dorje Shugden and little else.  It seems that DS is the main event, which is not the case, is it?  I'd rather be known as a Kadampa, someone for whom lamrim is their main practice.

It must seem to them as if our main practice is the worship of Dorje Shugden and there is no doubt that we've contributed to that view through overemphasizing the importance of the practice.  The Dalai Lama has tried to make the argument that we regard DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni.  Well meaning but ultimately naive postings on this forum and the distribution of DS brochures doubtlessly support this view so we're not doing ourselves any favours in my view.

That's my twopenceworth with which none of you will agree, as usual.  I think I'm on a different planet to you guys 

Dear Lineageholder,

Re what you said about this site just focusing on Dorje Shugden,  i do expect it to be so because the entire site IS about Dorje Shugden. It's not called General Dharma.com or Buddhism.com but Dorjeshugden.com.

I must say that i did not think that DS was the main event as you say - i had thought of DS as a Protector but now that I'm thinking of the possibility of DS being a Yidam, my perspective has changed. The possibilities are much wider now.

Re seeing DS as more important than Shakyamuni - i think that practitioners see their yidam as more important than Shakyamuni, so it's not about seeing who is more important than Shakyamuni per se. Also since DS is enlightened and so is Shakyamuni, I don't think Shakyamuni will mind that we focus on DS.

Reading the post below also adds confidence to what I am feeling.

Having anything to do with Dorje Shugden in any way, shape or form is the pure dharma.

His body shows the complete path of Lam Rim.

His mind is all omniscient.

He has achieved full oneness with Guyasamaja.

Remembering,seeing, contemplating on Dorje Shugden would earn one great waves of merit beyond calculation.

His is Manjushri in peaceful, wrathful, controlling, mystical and protective forms. He is Manjushri as a Yidam, Bodhisattva, a Buddha, a Daka and also dharma protector.

Taking full refuge in Dorje Shugden is the same as taking refuge in the complete ultimate emptiness and great bliss inherent in all Buddhas.

Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.

tk