Dalai Lama Bashing

[Lineageholder]

Well said, Robert.

I agree with WisdomBeing that it is best to follow one's Guru's instructions.  My Guru didn't tell me to criticise the Dalai Lama but he is involved in the WSS and 'A Great Deception' makes it very clear that the Dalai Lama's actions are deceptive and harmful.  I can also see the results of his actions, so I follow the view expressed in that book. I think it's very brave of the WSS to engage in direct criticism of the Dalai Lama, knowing how much criticism will be incurred by it.  WSS don't care - they are doing what is most beneficial for the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa. 

 I can understand that it is better not to criticise the Dalai Lama if your Guru said not to, but to actually justify these actions (which is nothing less than a schism in the Sangha) as a great service to the Dharma saddens me too. I believe it is a measure of the confusion that exists in this degenerate age.

[WisdomBeing]

I must say that personally I find it rather sad to see the lengths taken to justify or even praise the Dalai Lamas wrong views and actions as being somehow the deeds of a great being to further Dharma whilst at the same time showing the appearance of being embarrassed or ashamed of the actions of WSS, such as protests and A Great Deception. These activities of WSS seem to my mind to truly be wrathful actions whose purpose and result has been to stop or limit the power of those wrong views and actions. Also liberating many others to see the Dslai Lama's actions for what they are and therefore to break the spell of confusion that he had cast.

I can't speak for others, but personally i don't think i have praised the Dalai Lama's actions re this ban on Dorje Shugden. Neither have I been embarrassed of the actions of the WSS. In fact, i think that i have stated somewhere in the forum that while i personally wouldn't go for the protests, i understand why they were carried out and that the protests did fulfil the purpose of bringing attention and awareness of Dorje Shugden to the world.

It is very obvious that within the Shugden practitioners, there are those who are against the Dalai Lama and there are those who believe in the 'bigger picture' i.e the Dalai Lama has a hidden agenda. While neither the twain shall meet, i do hope that we can keep our respective opinions without denigrating each other. Wouldn't it be better to focus on the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice rather than what we think about the Dalai Lama?

If we truly love our practice, what can we do to positively promote it, which does not involve any negative behaviour or thought? Isn't that what Buddhism is about?

Criticising the Sangha is schism and if we don't like other people practising schism, i think that we should be the first to not indulge in it.

[DSFriend]

Dear wisdom being
I couldn't have said it better. I suppose in the west, we are conditioned to be individualistic, to think for ourselves and to exercise our intelligence. I do feel that we are fortunate to have such an upbringing.

However, it may be an obstacle if we completely approach spirituality in this manner, esp in vajrayana where the Guru is the supreme guide. We should think n question (isn't debates a method esp in the gelug tradition) We can create unnecessary obstacles to our spiritual journey if we do not rely on our teacher n insist that we know better.

In this forum, there are students from various gurus. Our Gurus use various methods to teach us.
Outwardly, it may appear students are performing various tasks which seem in direct contradiction as instructed by their Gurus. One Guru may tell his students to protest. Another may instruct not to protest. What I do know is that all the attained lamas are working together harmoniously though outwardly it may not look it.

I do not mean to generalize and I hope I am not offending anyone with what I'm sharing. They r merely my own limited observations.

[LosangKhyentse]

Instead of always focussing on Dalai Lama's 'faults' and repeating it over and over, it would be better to think, since the Dalai Lama has made Dorje Shugden so famous, let see what we can do to take over from here to make Dorje Shugden even more well known.

tk

[Mohani]

 In fact, i think that i have stated somewhere in the forum that while i personally wouldn't go for the protests, i understand why they were carried out and that the protests did fulfil the purpose of bringing attention and awareness of Dorje Shugden to the world.

Hi Kate,
The purpose of the protests was to bring attention to the unholy actions of the DL, so as to stop him from destroying Je Tsongkhapas tradition and to ask him to stop lying and give religious freedom.  The purpose was not to bring attention and awareness of Dorje Shugden to the world.
http://www.youtube.com/user/drmnaga78#p/u/24/cutBI8hKARA
http://www.youtube.com/user/drmnaga78#p/u/25/sIL_c9dc7CU

[Lineageholder]

Mohani is right - the demonstrations were to highlight the evil actions of the Dalai Lama and to protect the Ganden tradition from being destroyed by him. I'm not really interested in bringing awareness and attention of Dorje Shugden to the world, I'd rather bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world.  It's my purpose to promote the Dharma, the sole medicine for all sickness rather than reliance on a Dharma protector as a general practice for everyone.

I think if we harbour the view that our job is to promote Dorje Shugden, we are playing into the hands of the Dalai Lama who is claiming that Shugden practitioners see DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni.  I'm not being disrespectful here when I say that relying on Dorje Shugden is a niche practice for the students of Je Tsongkhapa only.  DS is the protector of the Ganden Lineage, not of Buddhadharma in general.  Whereas the Dalai Lama's plan is to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, and this is one extreme, I find that this forum has gone to another extreme - the exaggeration of Dorje Shugden as a general Deity for everyone and the promotion of his practice above all else.  I can't agree with this.  Dorje Shugden has an important role to play for followers of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition but he's not more important than the Guru or the Deity.  My wish is for those who want to rely upon Dorje Shugden to have the religious freedom to do so, not universal acceptance and reliance on Dorje Shugden.

[Mana]

Mohani is right - the demonstrations were to highlight the evil actions of the Dalai Lama and to protect the Ganden tradition from being destroyed by him. I'm not really interested in bringing awareness and attention of Dorje Shugden to the world, I'd rather bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world.  It's my purpose to promote the Dharma, the sole medicine for all sickness rather than reliance on a Dharma protector as a general practice for everyone.

I think if we harbour the view that our job is to promote Dorje Shugden, we are playing into the hands of the Dalai Lama who is claiming that Shugden practitioners see DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni.  I'm not being disrespectful here when I say that relying on Dorje Shugden is a niche practice for the students of Je Tsongkhapa only.  DS is the protector of the Ganden Lineage, not of Buddhadharma in general.  Whereas the Dalai Lama's plan is to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, and this is one extreme, I find that this forum has gone to another extreme - the exaggeration of Dorje Shugden as a general Deity for everyone and the promotion of his practice above all else.  I can't agree with this.  Dorje Shugden has an important role to play for followers of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition but he's not more important than the Guru or the Deity.  My wish is for those who want to rely upon Dorje Shugden to have the religious freedom to do so, not universal acceptance and reliance on Dorje Shugden.

It is the purpose of this website to:

1. Bring attention to the ban by showing views from both sides pro-against Dorje Shugden. Let the readers make up their mind.
2. To promote the practice of Dorje Shugden and to highlight his practice to the world. As there are many other cyberspaces that highlight Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa's holy teachings, but not many to bring Dorje Shugden to others.
3. By bringing the authenticity of Dorje Shugden/practice/lineage to the world, it automatically highlights the great lineage lamas under attack at this time. When people gain faith/confidence in the lineage lamas, naturally as a by-product, they will embrace the sacred teachings of Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa. Hence this sacred website automatically leads the practitioners to the authentic teachings of Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa.

It is not the purpose of this website to:

1. Be platform for hate messages against the Dalai Lama or any other lama. You may express your views in a polite manner. Whether you like the Dalai Lama or subscribe to some of our views toward his actions is of no consequence to us.
2. It is not a platform for the views of any centres.
3. It is not a platform for centers to use it as a platform for their political activities against the Dalai Lama/his actions or any lama/tradition/centres. We respect all forms of Buddhism and all religions.

This website is PRIVATE CYBER DOMAIN. It is up to the webmaster and our team to follow the views we adhere to from day one of this website's inception. If you find it 'extreme' or not to your liking, then it is up to you not to participate. But we do not need your constant criticism of our views. I repeat, this is a private space and you are a guest.

We will post any information as and when we like and we do not need anyone's approval nor disapproval. If you do not like some of the information, then you need not comment and proceed to what you like.

We are gracious enough to offer a platform for your views although we may not always agree/subscribe to it, but keep your views polite and moderate your speech. Since we are able to offer you a space to share your views, you should appreciate this space where we share our views.

We have been a platform for anyone who wishes to know more of Dorje Shugden which will enhance their practices of Buddha's teachings. We have worked hard and long hours. We have spent much resources. We are committed. So I think you should look for the many good points in our efforts and works manifested in this website instead of faults.



Mana

[Mana]

It is our true hope by understanding Dorje Shugden better, it removes the 'faults' of the lineage lamas. By the lineage lamas having no faults as wrongly described by the TGIE, people will gain faith in them and congregate to them for teachings. This is our hope. What prevents people from going to these lineage lamas is that they practice/teach Dorje Shugden. So if Dorje Shugden's practice is made clear, it will exonerate the holy lineage lamas. Then people will not criticize the lineage lamas. The lineage lamas alive today will not be seen as deviant, hence many will flock to recieve teachings from them. Far from being deviant, the lineage lamas are perfect vessels of BuddhaDharma. This website definitely promotes BuddhaDharma via Dorje Shugden.

We are very happy you can make Dorje Shugden well known in the world as it will definitely help the Lineage of Tsongkapa expand in this degenerate age.

Mana

[DSFriend]

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[Lineageholder]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but your reiteration of the forum rules is a little heavy handed.

By your rules, it's possible to praise the Dalai Lama and even state that his actions are beneficial for the Dharma, but as soon as someone questions this or states that his actions are destroying Buddhadharma, this is not permitted.  How does this site differ from the Tibetan Government in Exile's view, other than to disagree with the ban?  No one has used derogatory language about the Dalai Lama - aren't we permitted to question his actions and his motivation?

Are the only people who are allowed here those who have an unquestioning faith and reliance on both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden?  Why can't this be a free thinking forum?  What are people afraid of?  I'm responsible for my own karma but you're telling me what I can and cannot say.  I understand that there have to be rules but rude or obscene language has not been used.  I'm only asking you to question the values you are holding.

[WisdomBeing]

i think these past few posts are critical to how this forum moves forward. And the whole intention is to move forward because from my observations, this issue has been repeated over and over again - really like samsara.

Lineageholder - : you say

I'm not really interested in bringing awareness and attention of Dorje Shugden to the world, I'd rather bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world.  It's my purpose to promote the Dharma, the sole medicine for all sickness rather than reliance on a Dharma protector as a general practice for everyone.

That's great. I'm very happy that you want to bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world and many should do the same. However, as far as i can tell, the intention of this site is to raise awareness and promote Dorje Shugden.

See Mana's point from above:

2. To promote the practice of Dorje Shugden and to highlight his practice to the world. As there are many other cyberspaces that highlight Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa's holy teachings, but not many to bring Dorje Shugden to others.

Ergo, Lineageholder - it looks like you are looking for a different space than what is offered here. It's not who is right or wrong but that you simply have very different objectives.

The forum/website owners and moderators have very clearly stated the purposes of this space.

Mana:

This website is PRIVATE CYBER DOMAIN. It is up to the webmaster and our team to follow the views we adhere to from day one of this website's inception. If you find it 'extreme' or not to your liking, then it is up to you not to participate. But we do not need your constant criticism of our views. I repeat, this is a private space and you are a guest.

We will post any information as and when we like and we do not need anyone's approval nor disapproval. If you do not like some of the information, then you need not comment and proceed to what you like.

Your wishing to impose your views here is like putting a round peg in a square hole and with no disrespect, it simply doesn't work and appears to be mutually uncomfortable.

I don't think it's a case of your not being allowed to express your views, it's just the repetition of it. You've already expressed your views many times on many threads. So you have stated your questions already. If it is not enough, then i really do think you are in the wrong place.

There are many other forums out there who would welcome Dalai Lama bashing, but as one of the forum participants here, i really don't enjoy conflict, and i like the current peaceful, harmonious environment of this forum.

i sincerely trust that the moderators will keep it that way.

[beggar]

It is disappointing that we have returned to the same debate again.

I don’t need to repeat what Mana has already said as it is very clear; also the intentions and aims of this website are very clear.

I wish to make it clear that the website has never said that you cannot debate or question what the dalai lama has said or done. There are countless articles and videos on this website itself that shows the situation as it is and the truth behind what is happening. This is clear enough. The website also doesn’t need to keep repeating this point about the “wrongs” of the dalai lama to turn people’s minds away from him – there is enough evidence, information, education, media coverage for intelligent 21st-century minds to make informed decisions themselves.

Yes, we have heard many times the views against the dalai lama. This is also very clear by now.

My (our) question back to you is: SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO DO ABOUT IT NOW?

Yes, so maybe the dalai lama did some things you do not agree with or which you feel are wrong. So what else are you going to do about the situation to help others? Sitting on a forum complaining about the wrongs he has done, talking about how evil he is etc over and over again does not get anyone anywhere.

Some good questions to ask ourselves is: “how many people have I brought to the dharma by doing what I’m doing?” are more people practising dharma because of all the things you are saying against the dalai lama? Are more people inspired and have stronger faith in the dharma, lamrim, tsongkhapa, dorje shugden, their lamas? How are you going to contribute to bringing more people to the lamrim, shakyamuni’s teachings? How will you help people to clear their obstacles and open their minds to dharma? That would be much more constructive than just repeating the same old points about how bad the dalai lama is, because how far has that gotten you?

[Helena]

Dear Lineageholder,

I am writing as a Forum Participant who has been enjoying the Forum, following it and I do appreciate it a lot.

Hence, I am writing for myself.

Kindly do see that you have been given the freedom to express your views and that is why you can continue doing so plenty of times.

With no disrespect to you but, frankly, I am sorry to have to say this to you but YOUR reiteration of your views is beyond a little heavy handed by now.

Is this all you have to say, time and time again? Nothing else to add?

The fact that the Moderators have to post and re-post the rules of the Forum (yet again) may be an indication that you are not understanding it, or that you understand it and do not wish to respect it. So, the moderators are really reminding you for your benefit.

Please kindly remember that we are all guests here.

This is not your Forum nor mine. I think the "owners" have every right to stress whatever they deem fit and whatever they want. It belongs to them! They created it!

For the record, no one justifies any actions of the ban and no one agree with the ban. I have not read one post in the Forum where someone rejoices and agrees with the ban.

What you apparently do not like is that though I do not agree with the ban but I do not wish to comment on HHDL in any negative way.

I wish to let you know that when you continue as you have been, you are really THE ONE come across imposing your own views and wishes on the Forum and everyone in it. In fact, you appear as to be so attached to raising this same debate and your views time and time again. That, in itself would appear quite extreme to me, as an observer.

You went further by asking us to question our values -  what gives you the right? What do you know about the things me or anyone in the Forum does beyond here to justify that kind of questioning? For all you know, people in the Forum may work very hard to make the Dharma grow wherever they are. More than you can ever imagine. So, please refrain from such remarks which you do not have absolute knowledge of.

Seriously, if you do not like it here because people like me do not play to your tunes and dance to your songs - then please find somewhere else which totally encourages and indulges in your kind of thinking. Perhaps you would be much happier there.

I stress again, just because I do not share your views does not make us any less caring and pro-active about Dharma, the Gelugpa Lineage, the cause of Tibet, Dorje Shugden and etc.

Those are only your views.

Please do not assume I am like this or like that or anyone of us here, for that matter.

You do not know me at all. So, the least you can do is do what everyone else have been doing - respecting the different views.

Thank you and have a good night.

Sincerely,
just another Forum participant/observer who appreciates this space

[Mohani]

I think the thing that has caused all this disharmony is the change in flavour of the forum since the early part of this year. People used to be able to say what they liked, there was no disharmony, sometimes some heated debates but no heavy handedness.
Can I ask what caused that change?
It seemed a lot of new people came to the forum sharing the same view and started to clamp down on the views of the people who had been active on the forum since the begining. This forum had people who practice Dorje Shugden and followed many different teachers. It seem most of the people who are now on the forum are all followers of the same teacher.

[Lineageholder]

Dear WisdomBeing, Helena and beggar,

I understand what you are all saying.  My views are not welcome here because you don't want to entertain the idea that the Dalai Lama may be an ordinary being who is destroying the Buddhadharma for political purposes.  You want to entertain the notion that somehow the Dalai Lama's actions are beneficial. I would suggest you need to carefully examine the evidence you think supports this view.

Helena, ANYONE has the right to ask you to question your views.  You have the right to ask me to question mine;  through questioning we can make progress.  A closed mind is one that has already made up its mind and in that sense, is stuck, unless it is holding views based on valid reasons.

This forum should not be 'owned' by anyone.  No one should have the right to say what someone can and cannot say here.  What you are saying is 'if you don't want to play by our rules, you should leave'.  I personally find this thread curious: why does it have to be said, again and again, 'we should not bash the Dalai Lama' when it's clear that almost everyone, except me, shares this view?  For whose benefit is this 'discussion' being held?  Am I, and those few who might share by views,  being told (not too) subtly to shut up?

I think so.

Okay, enough has been said.  Thanks to all and apologies if my views have upset you.