Dalai Lama Bashing

[WisdomBeing]

Dear WisdomBeing, Helena and beggar,

I understand what you are all saying.  My views are not welcome here because you don't want to entertain the idea that the Dalai Lama may be an ordinary being who is destroying the Buddhadharma for political purposes.  You want to entertain the notion that somehow the Dalai Lama's actions are beneficial. I would suggest you need to carefully examine the evidence you think supports this view.

Helena, ANYONE has the right to ask you to question your views.  You have the right to ask me to question mine;  through questioning we can make progress.  A closed mind is one that has already made up its mind and in that sense, is stuck, unless it is holding views based on valid reasons.

This forum should not be 'owned' by anyone.  No one should have the right to say what someone can and cannot say here.  What you are saying is 'if you don't want to play by our rules, you should leave'.  I personally find this thread curious: why does it have to be said, again and again, 'we should not bash the Dalai Lama' when it's clear that almost everyone, except me, shares this view?  For whose benefit is this 'discussion' being held?  Am I, and those few who might share by views,  being told (not too) subtly to shut up?

I think so.

Okay, enough has been said.  Thanks to all and apologies if my views have upset you.

Lineageholder,

I just want to say that this forum is owned by someone. It's not public domain. Nothing is public domain on the internet, because someone will always have ownership over a website. I don't own this site. I don't pay anything towards the server rental, maintenance, salaries of staff if any. I don't pay the designer who must have spent a lot of time on this site. I don't give anything to this site at all except enjoy the privilege of being here. Yes - it is a privilege to be here because we are guests of the forum owners.

If I have a home which i say anyone can come in and make themselves at home, but please don't insult my father or any of my relatives and people come in, help themselves to drinks and snacks and then proceed to slag off my dad (whether he deserves it or not is even besides the point, it's my house), nobody would blame me if I were to tell the person to leave.

So i definitely think the owners of this site has every right to say what i can say or cannot say. This is their space, not mine. I used to go to the newbuddhist.com forum and they are very strict there too - the moderators don't even like me to bring up Dorje Shugden and I've been warned. I've been to other forums where they hurl abuse at Dorje Shugden practitioners. Thanks but no thanks. As I said - I really don't like conflict. So i don't go to those forums anymore and I don't go to newbuddhist anymore, because I don't like the rules there. I don't feel forced to leave those places. I just find them incompatible with me so i leave - i don't ask them to change their rules to suit me.

So if you like it here, then stay and share information but follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, then do find somewhere where you will be happy, like i did.

As you said, enough said.

[Helena]

Dear Lineageholder,

I am sorry but I do not think you really do understand what I am saying, though I can't speak for the rest.

I have been following this Forum and reading what you and other people have written.

If by your definition, a closed mind is one which is already made up its mind and is stuck, then that is what you have displayed clearly in your posts because you 'harp' on the very same things despite being presented with different angles and views. So, it shows me that whether having valid reasons or not, these are subjective to the closed mind. And you still show no interest to consider other views, nor respect them.

While others in the Forum may share different views from you, they have not asked you to think the same but merely asked you to respect their views and the moderators have asked you to respect their rules. No one ever said that your views are not welcome here - only your insistence that you are right and they are all wrong.

Again, please note it is your refusal to adhere to the rules of this Forum and your refusal to respect others' views that has been highlighted here, repeatedly.

I have carefully examined the evidence and facts before me to come to this conclusion as you have repeatedly acted in the same manner. I have chosen to write and speak up this time because I believe someone should, other than the moderators who have been doing their job very well.

Now, let me go on record to say - I did not originally harbour warm feelings towards HHDL before coming into this Forum. I had my own ideas and views about the ban and HHDL. And yes, at that time, I was really 'stuck' on them, due to my own limited understanding. I judged according to what I knew then. But even when I did not share great feelings about HHDL, I did not encourage others to do the same. I did not insist that others who held HHDL in high regard that they were wrong and they should seriously re-examine their mind.

But since coming into the Forum, I read the wealth of information presented and looked at the different angles and reasoning given, I decided to be open and consider the possibilities. I decided to get un-stuck.

With more information, I learn more and see more. I do not harbour any ill feelings towards HHDL anymore. And I much prefer that because it frees me from any negative thoughts/feelings, and stops me from further committing any negative karma by harbouring such negative thoughts/feelings. I certainly much prefer this.

Personally, I know many friends who have changed for the better because of HHDL and his teachings. They have become better people and treat everyone around them better because of HHDL's teachings. These are real. Hence, HHDL has done a lot of good as many people beyond my circle of friends have become better individuals because of him. This, I have to give credit where credit is due.

After deeper reflection, I did not want to harass anyone who believes in HHDL just because of I may not have felt the same way. I am not going to hurt their mind and devotion to their Guru who is HHDL because I do not think as they do. Why should I do that and ruin everything that has been going great for them? They are already connected to the Dharma and have begun to study the Lamrim, etc - all because of their belief in HHDL. They are many people who have become better people because of HHDL and I should not deny that. If without HHDL, many of these people would have not come into the Dharma in the first place. And I much prefer that they have Dharma and continue to become better. My conscience would not allow me to ruin their faith in their own Guru. They might end up not believing in Dharma and Buddha at all if they end up thinking that they can't even believe in HHDL anymore. Why would I want to do that? I really do not want to hurt anyone's connection with their Guru and Dharma. I am more afraid of the bad karma I would incur from doing such things.

I think this is where we are explicitly different.

It is more important for me that people continue to study the Dharma and become better people than to agree with me that I am right. Because the benefits they have received are real and they are walking proofs of it. So, again, I am not going to deny that just because I don't feel the same way. In fact, I rejoice for them that they have become better. As long as people still believe in the Three Jewels, study the Dharma and continue in their practice - that is the best benefit of all. And I do rejoice for that.

Allow me to reiterate, after coming into this Forum - my mind opened up even more. Whatever possibilities and angles that I had not considered before, or have allowed myself to consider before, I could now do it. And I much prefer holding views that are not limited and not being stuck on them. I like views that allow me to appreciate the good in people and respect their opinions, no matter how different they are.

The thread is not different nor is it curious to have the subject matter repeated again. Please ask yourself, why it had to be repeated. WHY?

Obviously, some people are still not listening and refusing to understand or even accept.

The information in this Forum is public, but not the website or Forum - because someone or a team has invested time, money and effort in it. They do own it.

As we are guests, we abide by the "rules of their house." Unless of course, you do not wish to come back into this house. Like WB pointed out very clearly in her analogy.

I am very grateful to this Forum and website because it has given me a lot valuable information and it has opened my mind from being stuck and very limited. I am certainly much happier now that I do not hold all ill feelings/thoughts towards anyone, because that would only make me unhappy and aid me in committing more bad karma.

In fact, through this Forum, I find myself more interested and focused on doing more good deeds to spread the Dharma via Dorje Shugden. And I love that I can do more.

So, take it as what you will - which I am sure you will. Whether your mind is closed and stuck - only you will know. There is no need to stress again and again because all of us in the Forum all can read for ourselves, and make up our own minds.

I take the initiative to write this because I have benefited from this Forum. Hence, I do not wish to stay silent and show my ingratitude.

Thank you and good day.

[lamrime]

I'm just a lurker but I've been I've been reading and relying on this forum for 3 years now through, confusion, protests and many clarifications.   When I started reading I was made uncomfortable by a few harsh voices (critics of the Dalai Lama) but in general I felt a strong sense of trust in a genuinely open dialog.   The hot heads were being challenged by some very cool, considerate voices and all seemed to gather in one place and be raised up by the experience.  And I realized some of the hotheads had some very sweet hearts.   It was like an agora, a true public meeting place, not a party at the house of one particular family protecting that family's interests.   What I feel one experiences here over the last several months is an achingly repetitive pablum, as insistent and relentless in practice as it is sweet-toned and good-intentioned in style.   Its like one endless-loop of a pacifying siddhi party where all the best-intentioned guests have finally exited the room before being nearly suffocated.   Finally, in my heart of hearts, I feel there is an absence of both passion and compassion in this pacifying pablum.   There's a lot of talk about worldly compassion, like what have you done for the dharma lately; what have you actually done for others lately.   For some this belies a lack of active engagement with the radical nature of buddha's teaching.  All 84,000 teachings point to a process of intense inner questioning which you are able to share with others, ripen from and gain a state from which to ultimately lead people away from their own suffering's sources. 

Lately I feel like I've finally been woken up by Buddha's words.  Suffering is the nature of samsara and we're experiencing it all the time on a sub- and often not-so-sub-level.   From here we can practice joy in knowing the way to go away from this and finding the clarity to show others.   I'm experiencing a joyful sublime to this process and finally beginning to feel very wide-open-eyed.    Its messy, not carefully manicured.   Its not the stuff of new age chat room.   Just look at the pictures on the wall.   They reflect all that and show the way to redirect and transform.   This whole episode over DS practice is indeed a teaching.   But its a dialectical teaching with an invitation to engage, not turn the wheel of mild equivocation relentlessly. 

All the independent voices seem to have left the party.   And now I'm going to join them.   

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Lamrhyme,

Just a quick note before I dash off for my day - thank you for sharing your view and I'm glad you agree that there was some discomfort by the critics of the Dalai Lama. I also felt that way. I'm sorry that the critics could not express their critical view without being personal about it. As you have probably read, I think 100% of the forum participants do not agree with the Dalai Lama's ban, but it is how we express our views which I think was the contention. Until the moderators began to be more firm with moderating with the house rules, I personally felt put down by some of the 'hot heads' when I did not agree with them. My issue was that as adults, we should be able to discuss without being personally attacked, but perhaps their passion overruled their heads.

They may be best intentioned - aren't we all - but i think that as this is a Dharma forum, we should follow Dharmic conduct and I think that the moderators have done a good job to keep the forum a safe and sacred space to learn from each other and discuss without fear or favour.

I'm still quite a Dharma newbie so I am not sure what "active engagement with the radical nature of buddha's teaching" means. All I know is that this forum consistently posts up new things to read and contemplate and discuss... in a non-aggressive manner, which to me, is what Dharma is about.

I wish you hadn't just lurked over the past three years but joined in the discussions as I am sure you would be able to contribute well. However, as you are leaving, I wish you all the best in your Dharma journey and may our Protector Dorje Shugden bring you whatever spiritual wishes you desire.

Peace,
Kate

[DSFriend]

Dear Lamrhyme

The people behind this website has put in much effort to provide all the resources to make our Protector known to many. Instead of rejoicing, we receive a few words such as yours which benefits no one. This site welcomes contribution. Just with everything else, there are rules and we request that all participants adhere to it.

thanks
DSfriend

[Losang_Tenpa]

Dear Lamrhyme,

This forum is what WE make it. Maybe you could try to add to the discussion. If you feel there is something lacking here, maybe you could help us all fill that gap. I agree, sometimes we need a bit more to chew on. It is always helpful to me to discuss things from various perspectives. Please consider adding some more of your thoughts into all of this.

[beggar]

I guess sometimes there is just no way of pleasing everybody - the moderators of the forum (and the website admin too, I'm sure) have tried to create an environment that promotes a positive view of BOTH the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. As it has always been clearly stated in this forum, we discourage anyone from "bashing" any Lama, no matter whether they are pro or against Dorje Shugden, simply because that is what the teachings advise us.

No one here promotes the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden's practice nor is happy about it - but there are ways to discuss it without being offensive or without bashing any Lamas. I think is where the disagreements had come about - the website stood very firmly on the grounds of NOT bashing or disparaging anyone (this included strong language and views against the Dalai Lama, for example) whereas some users felt that they needed to keep speaking strongly against the Dalai Lama.

I have said this many times before - it is not that the website and forum does not encourage discussion and debate on either side. The range of videos and articles on this website that present MANY sides of the story are testament to that. What we do not agree with are harsh language, sarcasm and damaging, hurtful views against someone who is a teacher, guru and guide to many millions in the world. If you cannot tolerate those kinds of guidelines that we have set forth in this forum, then we gently urge you to please go somewhere else to debate.

I agree strongly with what Tenzin Sungrab has also said - the forum is what we make it, so add your voice to it also, but please respect the website, the many thousands of hours which have been put into it and the corresponding guidelines. Make this a safe and conducive place for people to learn.
humbly, beggar

[thaimonk]

I'm just a lurker but I've been I've been reading and relying on this forum for 3 years now through, confusion, protests and many clarifications.   When I started reading I was made uncomfortable by a few harsh voices (critics of the Dalai Lama) but in general I felt a strong sense of trust in a genuinely open dialog.   The hot heads were being challenged by some very cool, considerate voices and all seemed to gather in one place and be raised up by the experience.  And I realized some of the hotheads had some very sweet hearts.   It was like an agora, a true public meeting place, not a party at the house of one particular family protecting that family's interests.   What I feel one experiences here over the last several months is an achingly repetitive pablum, as insistent and relentless in practice as it is sweet-toned and good-intentioned in style.   Its like one endless-loop of a pacifying siddhi party where all the best-intentioned guests have finally exited the room before being nearly suffocated.   Finally, in my heart of hearts, I feel there is an absence of both passion and compassion in this pacifying pablum.   There's a lot of talk about worldly compassion, like what have you done for the dharma lately; what have you actually done for others lately.   For some this belies a lack of active engagement with the radical nature of buddha's teaching.  All 84,000 teachings point to a process of intense inner questioning which you are able to share with others, ripen from and gain a state from which to ultimately lead people away from their own suffering's sources. 

Lately I feel like I've finally been woken up by Buddha's words.  Suffering is the nature of samsara and we're experiencing it all the time on a sub- and often not-so-sub-level.   From here we can practice joy in knowing the way to go away from this and finding the clarity to show others.   I'm experiencing a joyful sublime to this process and finally beginning to feel very wide-open-eyed.    Its messy, not carefully manicured.   Its not the stuff of new age chat room.   Just look at the pictures on the wall.   They reflect all that and show the way to redirect and transform.   This whole episode over DS practice is indeed a teaching.   But its a dialectical teaching with an invitation to engage, not turn the wheel of mild equivocation relentlessly. 

All the independent voices seem to have left the party.   And now I'm going to join them.   

This person writes very eloquently. But if you read carefully, what has he/she contributed to this forum? He/she has read and 'lurked' on this forum enjoying it's benefits for three years. The message he/she posts is negative. I feel sorry for such eloquence that ends in negativity.

Anyways, I feel it is one of those people that have harshly criticized the Dalai Lama in the past few months and when some of us debated back, they couldn't take the logic and the heat. So they upped and left. This is them writing under another name to show they have some kind of support in numbers? What dharma is that? Sorry to speak this way, but that is how I see it.

They just don't leave quietly like practitioners, but make grand sweeping statements to LET US KNOW THEY ARE LEAVING. Who does it hurt they are not participating? The more voices that speak in unison for DORJE SHUGDEN, THE MORE POWERFUL. So who does it hurt? It hurts for example all the brave monks that have seperated in Shar Gaden and Serpom. Disunity hurts.

If you have disagreemants about a debate on this forum and you leave, you lose. You make other brave practitioners lose. You may disagree on one issue, but there's agreemant on so many other issues, so why focus on the one.

The revelation of Buddha's teachings is that everything is a teaching, so why take anything to heart? Let go and continue.

Thaimonk

[LosangKhyentse]

I guess sometimes there is just no way of pleasing everybody - the moderators of the forum (and the website admin too, I'm sure) have tried to create an environment that promotes a positive view of BOTH the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. As it has always been clearly stated in this forum, we discourage anyone from "bashing" any Lama, no matter whether they are pro or against Dorje Shugden, simply because that is what the teachings advise us.

No one here promotes the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden's practice nor is happy about it - but there are ways to discuss it without being offensive or without bashing any Lamas. I think is where the disagreements had come about - the website stood very firmly on the grounds of NOT bashing or disparaging anyone (this included strong language and views against the Dalai Lama, for example) whereas some users felt that they needed to keep speaking strongly against the Dalai Lama.

I have said this many times before - it is not that the website and forum does not encourage discussion and debate on either side. The range of videos and articles on this website that present MANY sides of the story are testament to that. What we do not agree with are harsh language, sarcasm and damaging, hurtful views against someone who is a teacher, guru and guide to many millions in the world. If you cannot tolerate those kinds of guidelines that we have set forth in this forum, then we gently urge you to please go somewhere else to debate.

I agree strongly with what Tenzin Sungrab has also said - the forum is what we make it, so add your voice to it also, but please respect the website, the many thousands of hours which have been put into it and the corresponding guidelines. Make this a safe and conducive place for people to learn.
humbly, beggar

Excellent thoughts. Excellent expression. I agree with EVERY single word.
Thank you Beggar.

TK

[Losang_Tenpa]

Just found these words of Gonsar Rinpoche:

  "I have spent many years in exile and have a great reverence for His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, but now he is abusing our freedom by banning Shugden. It makes me very sad... We are not doing anything wrong; we are just keeping on with this practice, which we have received through great masters. I respect His Holiness very much, hoping he may change his opinion... I cannot accept this ban on Shugden. If I accept this, then I accept that all of my masters, wise great masters, are wrong. If I accept that they are demon worshippers, then the teachings are wrong, everything we believe in is wrong. That is not possible"

[beggar]

Just found these words of Gonsar Rinpoche:

  "I have spent many years in exile and have a great reverence for His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, but now he is abusing our freedom by banning Shugden. It makes me very sad... We are not doing anything wrong; we are just keeping on with this practice, which we have received through great masters. I respect His Holiness very much, hoping he may change his opinion... I cannot accept this ban on Shugden. If I accept this, then I accept that all of my masters, wise great masters, are wrong. If I accept that they are demon worshippers, then the teachings are wrong, everything we believe in is wrong. That is not possible"

TS: Thanks for sharing this. Do you mind sharing where you found this quote?

Since learning about all the politics within this issue (I dislike this word "issue" but for lack of a better word..), I have been always intrigued, humbled and somewhat encouraged by the way in which the Lamas talk about the ban and about the dalai lama. This quote by Gonsar Rinpoche is a case in point.

In no way does he use any harsh criticism or words against the Dalai Lama; nor does he refer negatively in any way to DS practitioners. He, like many lamas I have also read, talk about this issue in a very dharmic way, which is logical. They lay the cards on the table - the truth of the bind that so many practitioners are caught in. This is very eloquent:

I respect His Holiness very much, hoping he may change his opinion... I cannot accept this ban on Shugden. If I accept this, then I accept that all of my masters, wise great masters, are wrong. If I accept that they are demon worshippers, then the teachings are wrong, everything we believe in is wrong. That is not possible

It is encouraging to me to read this, because it shows clearly: so many of the lamas are not reacting to or upset about the dalai lama in the way many (lay) people around the world seem to be. They maintain their respect towards him and to many of them, he remains their Guru. When they express their unhappiness / frustration, it is directly about the ban, and not about the Dalai Lama. In the face of difficulty, they show us always their steady respect of the Lamas and reveal the falsity of the ban by logic and Dharma, not by rhetoric, criticism or accusation.

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Beggar,

I agree with you completely. It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.

No doubt those who disagree will want to know the source of this quote of Gonsar Rinpoche, so i hope Tenzin Sungrab can provide a source for us asap.

Looking forward to hearing more about this quote...

[Losang_Tenpa]

The quote was found in this article from info-buddhism.com

http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html#Notes-DS

The original quote comes from the article for NOW magazine, On the Outs wIth the Dalai Lama, By John Goetz

I am still digging to see what else I can find out about this quote.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear Beggar,

I agree with you completely. It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.

No doubt those who disagree will want to know the source of this quote of Gonsar Rinpoche, so i hope Tenzin Sungrab can provide a source for us asap.

Looking forward to hearing more about this quote...

His Eminence Gonsar Rinpoche really shows himself to be a true Gelug Practitioner of the highest order. He never attacks HH Dalai Lama. He expresses he cannot go along with the ban and he will not stop his practice. That is how I feel also.

Attacks on HH the Dalai Lama is not necessary. Our karma is more important than attacking Dalai Lama or calling him by abusive names. Whether we like Dalai Lama or not, he is a sentient being and we should forgive him and move on. His reign is short lived now. His ban will dissolve with his reign. Impermanence is on our side.

TK

[triesa]

Dear Beggar,

I agree with you completely. It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.

No doubt those who disagree will want to know the source of this quote of Gonsar Rinpoche, so i hope Tenzin Sungrab can provide a source for us asap.

Looking forward to hearing more about this quote...

His Eminence Gonsar Rinpoche really shows himself to be a true Gelug Practitioner of the highest order. He never attacks HH Dalai Lama. He expresses he cannot go along with the ban and he will not stop his practice. That is how I feel also.

Attacks on HH the Dalai Lama is not necessary. Our karma is more important than attacking Dalai Lama or calling him by abusive names. Whether we like Dalai Lama or not, he is a sentient being and we should forgive him and move on. His reign is short lived now. His ban will dissolve with his reign. Impermanence is on our side.

TK

Yes, whether we are buddhist practitioners or DS practitioners, there is REALLY NO NEED to criticise or make constant attacks on the Dalai Lama, like what TK said.

In fact, this is the best time for us to practise tolerence, forgivness, acceptance, compassion, it is not easy, I admit too, but isn't it the best time to really put our buddhist values to real practice??

I believe anyone who has a clear conscience gets the picture, so it is the BEST TIME for us to learn to "Let Go" and "Move On" as well.

Put our energy into something more constructive is always better than focusing on creating more negativities.