Dalai Lama Bashing

[Heartspoon]

Correct use of reasoning will never lead us
to think that either HH the 14th Dalai Lama
or his tutor Trijang Rinpoche are giving
misleading instructions.

I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with this one.  The Dalai Lama clearly is giving misleading instructions, and this is causing suffering to the Tibetan community in particular and the international Buddhist community in general.

How can instructing the abbots of Gelugpa monasteries to expel Dorje Shugden practitioners, as well as all the discrimination and ostracism that has taken place, be correct instructions?  Correct instructions lead to happiness not misery and compassion protects living beings, not inflicts harm on them.

Lineageholder,

I'm so pleased to hear a fellow dharma practitioner who is not afraid to use his own critical thinking !

If only all the practitioners were able to remember the meaning of the teachings and to apply correctly
the instructions not a single practitioner would have been expelled from the Gelugpa monasteries and
no discrimination and ostracism would have taken place.

[WisdomBeing]

I still think it is best not to judge.

The situation is as it is now - now what? Are Dorje Shugden practitioners going to be split over this issue and fight each other, put each other down or find a way to improve our Dharma practice?

Is your opinion of HH the Dalai Lama crucial to your Dharma practice, that it supercedes all else?

Yes HH the Dalai Lama imposed the ban. No one is contending that and no one on this forum contends that people are suffering as a result of this ban - this is repeated ad nauseum on this forum.

So - what are we going to do about it? Hurl mud on the Dalai Lama's name? What does it achieve? Who is enforcing this ban? The TGIE and consequently the Tibetan monasteries in India. Do you think that by insulting the Dalai Lama, this will cause the Dalai Lama to change his stance? TGIE to change their stance?

What do you think someone would think of anti-Dalai Lama threads? They may not have an opinion on the Dalai Lama even before they come to this site because they want to learn about Dorje Shugden and not the politics (yes, that's possible). Sure they will read both sides of the story - as there is ample information on the ban here - and make up their own minds, but do we want to show people that Dorje Shugden practitioners are having such negative thoughts?

Why not focus on the innumerable benefits of Dharma practice? Our yidams? Je Tsongkhapa? Dorje Shugden?

And this is something i really don't understand, why do people who don't agree with the mission of this site - i.e. Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together - still come here, and continue to harp on the same issue?

It's like going to a vegetarian forum and saying no, you need to eat meat cos i believe it's healthier. The philosophical beliefs of that site are contradictory to the meat eaters but they still want to convert the vegetarians to be meat eaters. I just find it really weird.

i think i know your stance on this issue, you know my stance, so can we please just focus on something else - there are so many interesting threads out there to discuss.

[Heartspoon]

I still think it is best not to judge.

I still think it is best to understand

[Heartspoon]

Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and I understand his actions" is better than
saying " I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama but I do not understand his actions"

Don't you think so ?

[Heartspoon]

Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are right" is better than
saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are wrong"

Don't you think so ?

[thaimonk]

I still think it is best not to judge.

The situation is as it is now - now what? Are Dorje Shugden practitioners going to be split over this issue and fight each other, put each other down or find a way to improve our Dharma practice?

Is your opinion of HH the Dalai Lama crucial to your Dharma practice, that it supercedes all else?

Yes HH the Dalai Lama imposed the ban. No one is contending that and no one on this forum contends that people are suffering as a result of this ban - this is repeated ad nauseum on this forum.

So - what are we going to do about it? Hurl mud on the Dalai Lama's name? What does it achieve? Who is enforcing this ban? The TGIE and consequently the Tibetan monasteries in India. Do you think that by insulting the Dalai Lama, this will cause the Dalai Lama to change his stance? TGIE to change their stance?

What do you think someone would think of anti-Dalai Lama threads? They may not have an opinion on the Dalai Lama even before they come to this site because they want to learn about Dorje Shugden and not the politics (yes, that's possible). Sure they will read both sides of the story - as there is ample information on the ban here - and make up their own minds, but do we want to show people that Dorje Shugden practitioners are having such negative thoughts?

Why not focus on the innumerable benefits of Dharma practice? Our yidams? Je Tsongkhapa? Dorje Shugden?

And this is something i really don't understand, why do people who don't agree with the mission of this site - i.e. Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together - still come here, and continue to harp on the same issue?

It's like going to a vegetarian forum and saying no, you need to eat meat cos i believe it's healthier. The philosophical beliefs of that site are contradictory to the meat eaters but they still want to convert the vegetarians to be meat eaters. I just find it really weird.

i think i know your stance on this issue, you know my stance, so can we please just focus on something else - there are so many interesting threads out there to discuss.

I like what you wrote. What has happened has happened and it is up to us to make the best of it and not moan and groan forever.  

I really like your thinking and how you practice the dharma. It appeals to me so much. Practitioners like you will be very effective to calm the minds of doubting new comers very much.

Thank you.

[Zach]

Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are right" is better than
saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are wrong"

Don't you think so ?

Are you trying to say that from a conventional stand point that the Dalai lamas reasons are perfectly valid ? Bearing in mind when i say conventional I mean the reasons he has given EG evil spirit ?

[triesa]

For those who do not agree and do not like HH the Dalai Lama's ban on DS, can we learn here to accept the fact and MOVE ON???

Why do we have to spend hours and hours of concentrating on something not constructive and find any possible ways to harp on the same issue again and again and again..........

Can we use this "Adverse" situation to practise some REAL Dharma??

That's is what it is all about, without these adverse situations, how do we know we are just another intellectual or a sincere practitioner who wants to really make the best out of what has happened.

By not accepting the fact, you will never move on and stay stagnant in your own thoughts.

[Heartspoon]

Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are right" is better than
saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are wrong"

Don't you think so ?

Are you trying to say that from a conventional stand point that the Dalai lamas reasons are perfectly valid ? Bearing in mind when i say conventional I mean the reasons he has given EG evil spirit ?

When the Dalai Lama says go and check the reasons I have given, he is not necessarily thinking or hoping we will find them perfectly valid, does he ?

And if we find them as not valid, he is not necessarily thinking or hoping we will take his reasons as the basis of an instruction in the same way as we would if we had found that the reasons were valid, does he ?

Remember maybe who he is and what kind of training was available to him...

[Heartspoon]

"Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, perform things that are going to damn you, it is not up to me, and I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, “I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you”.

How true...and incidentally said by HH 14th the Dalai Lama...

[Vajraprotector]

"Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, perform things that are going to damn you, it is not up to me, and I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, “I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you”.

How true...and incidentally said by HH 14th the Dalai Lama...

Isn't that something worth thinking about? How can someone who has taken on the burden of caring for Tibetans' welfare and the welfare of sentient beings do something "without caring about the results of one's actions".

[Lineageholder]

"Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, perform things that are going to damn you, it is not up to me, and I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, “I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you”.

How true...and incidentally said by HH 14th the Dalai Lama...

Isn't that something worth thinking about? How can someone who has taken on the burden of caring for Tibetans' welfare and the welfare of sentient beings do something "without caring about the results of one's actions".

Tenzin Gyatso didn't have any choice about caring for the Tibetan's welfare because he was appointed as the Dalai Lama from an early age, a burden that makes me feel sad for him.  Having said that, if you check, he hasn't really done anything for the Tibetan people.  It might be argued, actually, in general they are better off under the Chinese than under the violent feudal theocracy that existed pre-1959.

Also - do you really think that the Dalai Lama would have created a schism in the Sangha if he was thinking about the results of his actions?

[triesa]

Isn't that something worth thinking about? How can someone who has taken on the burden of caring for Tibetans' welfare and the welfare of sentient beings do something "without caring about the results of one's actions".

Tenzin Gyatso didn't have any choice about caring for the Tibetan's welfare because he was appointed as the Dalai Lama from an early age, a burden that makes me feel sad for him.  Having said that, if you check, he hasn't really done anything for the Tibetan people.  It might be argued, actually, in general they are better off under the Chinese than under the violent feudal theocracy that existed pre-1959.

Also - do you really think that the Dalai Lama would have created a schism in the Sangha if he was thinking about the results of his actions?

I think we should not feel sad for Dalai Lama to be chosen at early age, infact, that's was the purpose for Chenrizig to reincarnate back again to benefit more sentient beings. That is the reasons why they come back, totally out of compassion.

Lineageholder, how can you said the Dalai Lama hadn't done anything for the Tibetan people? What the Tibetans are now facing is also a collective karma that Tibet and Tibetans as a whole have created. I really can't say if the Tibetans are better off under the Chinese rule now. You could be right if we only look at it on an economical level.

[Lineageholder]

Lineageholder, how can you said the Dalai Lama hadn't done anything for the Tibetan people? What the Tibetans are now facing is also a collective karma that Tibet and Tibetans as a whole have created. I really can't say if the Tibetans are better off under the Chinese rule now. You could be right if we only look at it on an economical level.

Triesa, good point.  It's true that the Tibetans are experiencing collective karma, the ineffectiveness of the Dalai Lama is just part of that karma.  I'm sure there are many different factors involved in why the Dalai Lama has completely failed to achieve either autonomy or independence for Tibet, but it seems apparent to me that he doesn't really care about either.

I just looked up the Wikipedia article on human rights in China, and if we examine the areas of freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of the press and religious freedom, there is no more freedom in the Tibetan Exile Community than there is under the Chinese.  The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile attempt to control all of these, so if the Tibetan Government in Exile accuse the Chinese of controlling these areas and subjugating human rights, sadly it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  Maybe the Tibetans have the karma to be treated like this no matter who claims to be in charge; that's very sad.

[Helena]

We feel obliged to know all kinds of things – to understand and to try to convince others. We hear our Guru's or some other Spiritual Advisor's talks, we read books, and we want to tell others about the "truth" – we might even feel a bit evangelical – but may be there is wisdom in letting go of even the desire to tell others.

When we feel enthusiastic, we begin to impose on other people; but in meditation we let go of the desire to influence others until the right time for it occurs – then it happens naturally rather than as an "aggressive ambition".

For most of us, we use our 'ordinary standards of morality' and 'identification' to judge all that is happening around us. And we begin to believe it is true, especially when we have a group of people who share the same belief as us. The same applies to the other groups of people as well - because  they also have a number of people in holding the same beliefs or ideas.

Your brand of truth or my brand of truth - in the end, there is no truth that is defined by you or me.

The reality is that we create our own suffering because we simply cannot let go of what we like to think is right or correct.

What's worse - we want other people to agree with us.

Honestly, no mortal can ever begin to comprehend an Enlightened Being's actions or motivations for doing anything. Sometimes situations are deliberately created to benefit us in a way that we may not even know until much later.

We do not know everything and we certainly cannot understand everything.

It is apparent to me that a lot have been said and will be said over and over again by people who really do not have absolute knowledge of what is really going on, what will be going on and even what has come to passed.

If we still using our old or existing perception to judge and make conclusions on things which are constantly evolving, then perhaps we do not really understand karma, dharma and even samsara.