When is the madness okay?

[honeydakini]

I wrote this in another thread (the yellow book), but thought to start a new thread about this too:


I've always been rather fascinated by the stories of old about the mahasiddhas and enlightened beings of the past. A lot of the allegorical and symbolic references should be taken for their meaning and not for what the literal story - each story is a whole dharma teaching unto itself.

It's interesting to also note our modern day reactions to these stories. When we hear the legends and stories of the great masters, we feel inspired and awed. The extremes situations that are related in these tales don't faze us at all but actually serve to inspire us further in our path - Milarepa building and tearing down houses 12 times, Naropa enduring "abuse" and being ignored for 12 years, bodhisattvas who feed themselves to the tigers, highly attained teachers who kill harmful beings for the sake of saving a country's religious future.... There are even schools of thought that put forward the idea that even Devadetta was an enlightened being too, deliberately manifesting evil deeds towards the Buddha as a means of teaching us certain lessons.

We see nothing wrong at all in those actions because we accept that they are the actions of enlightened beings and that they arise out of their great wisdom, compassion and attainments. But if any of that were to happen today, we go up in arms, we protest, we yell, we criticise the lamas. Suddenly, these same actions motivated by the same great wisdom and compassion, are not okay anymore.

So when is it okay and when it is not okay? And how can we ascertain that we even have the wisdom to know this?

[triesa]

Thank you Honeydakini for posting this interesting thread.

I guess what you are talking about is related to the "Crazy Wisdom" of high attained Lamas who act purely out of compassion. I believe strongly there are high lamas who purposely demonstrated conflicts in their speech and wrathful actions just to test the mind level of their students or to benefit them.

Even though it may not appear to be easy, especially at this time for many of us to perceive if the actions of certain lamas are okay or not, I think we can make our little judgement by analysing the final outcome of such actions, whether it  has a positive or negative impact on the individual or the general mass.

I know many high lamas would act, in the eyes of the students, crazy and extremely wrathful actions, the motivation of such actions is to cause them distress, anxiety, and sometimes even pain,  all these actions are to eventually help purify the negative karma of the students much faster than they could imagine when they have experienced these emotions.

Depending on the level of the students, some may be upset for a short time and be ok, some may be upset and leave, some may be upset and start to talk badly about their own lama....... all depending on the level of the mind.

But one thing for sure, these high attained lamas do act out of COMPASSION AND WISDOM. Most of the time, it is only our monkey minds that are not tamed and are deluded.

Triesa

[Helena]

It is easier to read and be inspired now because we are not caught up int the events of that particular time. We were not in the thick of things and are emotions were not involved, we are looking and observing from a very remote distance - from a different time - hence, we can afford to be more objective.

As long as we are removed from that situation and have no stake in it, then we can see things more objectively. Our perception opens up instead of closing in.

This is just my personal opinion, of course.

Because we hold so much duality in our every day views, especially when emotions are triggered, things do become rather muddled and confused. There is no clarity anymore and we are just swept by our own emotions.

Emotions can bring us to places we would not have thread in the first place if we were on our more 'normal mode' - mostly, anger and deep sadness.

This is why I do find great value in penetrating wisdom because it gives you discerning clarity to see what is really right and what is pretending to be right, what is motivated emotions and what is governed by logic.

Having said that, it does not mean that I do have penetrating wisdom and practise it well. All I can say, is that I try my best to have an open mind.

Like I said many times before, in samsara - reality is only perceived by individuals. There are always going to be different versions of the truth in samsara. Because different people have an emotional stake or vested interest in one things or another. It is never always completely selfless.

Hence, only highly attained beings and enlightened beings can do outwardly strange things that are beyond our own comprehension and yet bring about tremendous benefit for the whole.

We, on the other hand, can't even do one thing right and well to bring about real benefits for ourselves in a consistent and continuous manner. We shift and change according to what we think we know and find out.

The madness is ok for enlightened beings, mahasiddhas and Buddhas but not for us. We cannot use their reasoning and actions to apply to us because we are simply not them, and not at their level. 

[WisdomBeing]

Madness is always okay if you're enlightened. Actually if you were enlightened, you would just manifest madness, you wouldn't actually be mad!

The Buddhas would be able to tell if people were manifesting madness or whether they were really mad. Unfortunately, and I'll speak for myself first and say that since i'm not enlightened, how would i be able to tell if people were mad or a mahasiddha. Someone on another thread suggested that we use discriminating wisdom but my answer was that how would i be able to do that when i don't have discriminating wisdom yet.

Buddhas manifest in whatever way necessary to benefit sentient beings. I would just trust them to do the right thing. I can hear the devil's advocate saying but how do we know they are enlightened to begin with. My answer would be that i don't. So i will keep my mind open and not judge. And over time, through observation and discussion with other sangha, i guess I would eventually get an impression if someone was attained or not.

[DSFriend]

How can one ascertain if the action is from an enlightened being or not, from a motivation driven by self or selflessness?
It is not easy as we exist in this degenerate age. We can of course check the lama out..some takes years to do so. It's ok but do not spend too much time checking the lama because before we know it, we will be too old to be capable of engaging in purification process..

[kurava]

Yes, when we are not at the receiving end of the “madness” or “wrath”, it seems easy to accept and even be inspired as the third party. However, if one is in the “thick of the storm”, do we have the strength of faith to take it and sail through the storm with greater strength ?

One factor to check is what would the Lama gain from his wrathful means? Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone if the Lama is always nice and peaceful? I mean the Lama will attract more sponsors resulting in faster material growth rather than scare the “xxx” out his students and chase away potential sponsors.

Having said the above, our time is different from that of Milarepa or Naropa. In spiritual terms – we don’t have the merits like Milarepa or Naropa. Thus our Lamas need to exercise more skills conjoined with even greater compassion. They have more work to do and take on more of our pains. We really must treasure the times we spend with these high,compassionate beings if we have the good fortune to meet one.

[Big Uncle]

I like what kurava said about our preconceived ideas of what a Lama should act because all of us have this expectation that a Lama must be gentle and kind all the time. Yes, he is kind all the time but not necessarily gentle because kindness does not necessarily mean just being gentle. On the other hand, the actions of a Lama is actually governed by the actions and karma of his students.

The more Mahasiddha-like or wrathful that Lama acts reflects the level of faith his students have. Hence, the higher their faith, the more 'purification' they can endure, so much negative karma can be purified. Anyway, the purification that a Lama will administer upon his students will be dependent upon the faith of his students as well. So there is never too much because the Lama has checked it out for us. Hence, a Lama will always administer what his students can take and never more. So actually there is no such thing as too much. Why complain when he gives a lot of good medicine?

Finally, there are students that run because they say they can't take the purification. I say it is not because they can't take it. It is because they are unwilling to change and whatever their actions or Dharma work has been self-serving and is hence demerit. The pile of demerit created has made the student's mind hard and wants to escape. Well, the truth is that there is no escape from karma. We may be able to fool a few people out there but there is no way we can fool our karma. 
 

[WisdomBeing]

The thing is that in the 21st century, especially in the West - i don't know much about the East which seems to be more tolerant of Mahasiddha behaviour -  those Mahasiddha methods would not be accepted by the general public. All we need is a disgruntled student - as Big Uncle says - someone who is unwilling to change - to complain to the authorities or newspaper regarding 'ill treatment' by their teacher and then the reputation of this teacher would be tainted. It's very sad because the teacher takes great risks to help the student, but the student does not wish to accept it. Not only does the student not wish to change, he or she is willing to 'take revenge' by actions which will curtail the effectiveness of the teacher. This will create tremendous negative karma for that student.

When i was discussing this last night with a friend, she said that surely if the teacher was enlightened, the teacher would know if the student would accept the treatment or not. I had thought that it's the 'free will' premise - i.e. the student may be open to change but it is still the student's choice at the end of the day whether to flight or fight their own negativities. The teacher would be there to help the student but if the student doesn't want to help, the teacher cannot do much.

I remember reading somewhere that in the guru-disciple relationship, it looks like the guru is in control but actually it's the student. The guru can do all he can to help the student, but if the student doesn't want to be helped, the guru cannot do much more than plant seeds for maybe a future life.

[DharmaDefender]

For me, madness is okay when the results match the method. If the student ends up happier, the teacher's done the right thing and he's okay by my book.

The thing is that in the 21st century, especially in the West - i don't know much about the East which seems to be more tolerant of Mahasiddha behaviour -  those Mahasiddha methods would not be accepted by the general public. All we need is a disgruntled student - as Big Uncle says - someone who is unwilling to change - to complain to the authorities or newspaper regarding 'ill treatment' by their teacher and then the reputation of this teacher would be tainted. It's very sad because the teacher takes great risks to help the student, but the student does not wish to accept it. Not only does the student not wish to change, he or she is willing to 'take revenge' by actions which will curtail the effectiveness of the teacher. This will create tremendous negative karma for that student.

Imagine you have a Buddha in front of you, giving you the fastest methods for you to attain spiritual realisations. Not only do you disregard those instructions, but you create the causes for others to stay away from those methods. You're creating the causes for people to continue to suffer, and be unhappy. Yuck, definitely tremendous negative karma.

I remember reading somewhere that in the guru-disciple relationship, it looks like the guru is in control but actually it's the student. The guru can do all he can to help the student, but if the student doesn't want to be helped, the guru cannot do much more than plant seeds for maybe a future life.

Of course the student's in control. It's what makes Buddhism so different to other religions, because I take the responsibility for my happiness; I don't leave myself to the mercy of something external.

If we didn't have control of our spiritual realisations, then what is karma all about? If our gurus could change our karma, then why all the hardship and obstacles? Surely out of their compassion they'd just snap their fingers and sort our mess of a mind out for us. It would save all of us a lot of heartache - the student who perceives they are suffering by following the guru's instructions, and the suffering of the guru when he / she sees students continuing to be unhappy because they didn't follow the lama's instructions.

[Helena]

Well said WB and DharmaDefender!

The problem is the students do not want to take responsibility when they have messed up their own lives by not listening to the Guru in the first place and not doing what has been advised. And they dare to blame others or the Guru when the results are bad.

They will not pause to think who made those choices in the first place. Then they try to wrangle themselves from the ownership of such a mess.

When results are truly positive and for the better, then it is clear that the teacher's methods work - despite how ridiculous and mad it seems. This is really proof that the teacher can see that far and know so much. Something we cannot even do for ourselves.

I guess all teachers already know about each student but it is each student's free will that will ultimately determine whether he or she will really progress. And all progress can only come about when we as students follow the advice of our Gurus. Hence, this is why some students excel and some don't.

Our free will is the main difference in this whole equation.

 

[shugdenprotect]

The Guru only appears when the student is ready. This is very logical and exists in the secular world as well. Example: A classroom is filled with students who hear the same lecture and receive the same assignments. If the input from the teacher is the same, why is it that there are different outputs, i.e. some successes and some failures? It is because the student not the Guru who determines the ultimate result.

However, having a “good” teacher who has successfully gone through this path will certainly help to make our journey faster and smoother. I heard a very good question posed by a student once: Why should we follow religions, be it Buddhism, Christianity or Hinduism to develop spiritual growth? The respond was simple and factual: Why would you choose to go on an unthreaded path when a proven way is readily available?

With regards as to whether a Guru is practicing  “crazy wisdom” or is “simply crazy”, we should look at his or her results. If, in general, the students reveal spiritual growth in their actions of body, speech and mind, then it would be logical to say that their Guru practices Crazy Wisdom. Therefore, as Dharma students, we have the responsibility of representing our Guru, our centre and the Dharma well. Our actions, however small, is important and can contribute to the growth of pure Dharma, the practice of our Protector and the teachings of our kind Guru.

[beggar]

It is very helpful to think in this way:

First of all, this is why is it SO VERY IMPORTANT to check your teacher before you take him as your teacher. There are stringent guidelines for this and many, many teachings to guide us on the right direction. One of the key points to look out for in a teacher is his motivation and his compassion. What are the results of his actions (no matter how "mad" they might seem)? Do they bring positive results and inspire mind transformation in the students?

After you have taken someone as your teacher, then when "madness" or difficult situations come up think: has your teacher ever done anything to hurt you? What have been the results of all that the teacher has told you or done to/for you? If this is a real teacher and you contemplate strongly, you will see that all his actions are consistently beneficial and kind towards you. This actions have created only positive results that have helped you grow in some way. Then faith arises in the teacher's methods. This will help to keep your mind steady and not fall into your doubts.

[WisdomBeing]

For me, madness is okay when the results match the method. If the student ends up happier, the teacher's done the right thing and he's okay by my book.

RE if the student ends up happier, i don't think that would be a good way to gauge a teacher because many students don't want to change, they don't want to step out of their comfort zone to cut down their egos, to be more patient, to be less angersome. So when the Guru tries unconventional methods to inspire change in the student, the student may rebel and leave Dharma altogether. This would not be the fault of the teacher but that of the student because the student did not trust the teacher's methods and follow through. There are some dharma organisations (i shall not mention names!) where ex-members or students have left under extremely unhappy circumstances but i do believe that it's the merits of those students who have run out rather than the perfection of the teacher.

As you said in your post - the responsibility is ours. Whether we choose change or not will create the causes for a certain result so we can't complain when we get that result.

[Helena]

Dear WB, I am guessing that Dharma Defender meant the ultimate result and may be, not the temporary results which occurs during the process of 'madness' so to speak. Of course, I am guessing here.

What you wrote is very valid - a lot of students may not even stay for the long haul and enjoy the benefits of the ultimate results. They experience the pains and tribulation of the moment and they give up. They do not understand that it is a process. And one needs to go through the entire process in order to become 'healed', 'cured' or better. 

It is like if we do not want to take the bitterness of the medicine and we refuse to actually take it and we give up on it, then there is no way that we can possibly recover. Same with dharma practice and purification practices.

I think most people always assume that when we go into Dharma, everything will automatically become rosier and better - like magic! So, they get very challenged when things become 'crazy' or 'mad'.

Those who remain throughout any madness and they are somehow able to remain stable during the whole process shows me that they have absolute faith and belief in their Gurus. In this respect, I am inclined to think that when someone gets de-stabilised during any "madness" - it reflects the level of faith they have in their Guru.

Of course, this is easier said than done. It also helps when we do have a strong and good support group of Dharma brothers and sisters who will nurture us and guide us during crazy periods. Then the new students experiencing such madness will not be so shell-shocked. Here, I think the role of older students would be most helpful and crucial. As they have experienced all this madness before hand, they could provide some useful advice to the rest. I am sure it will help a great deal.

I myself have witnessed some 'madness' from my own Guru - be it to teach me a very important lesson or someone else. But we would always go through these crazy periods as a group. By the end of each session, we realise how skillful our Guru is in waking us up, guiding us into another level and helping us bond much closer as a group.

Naturally, while going through it all, we feel most challenged and that is when we would see ourselves face to face and each other - without all the farce. After all is said and done, we always emerge better and stronger - as a group and as an individual. Without a doubt, I always feel 'changed'.

In the end, I realised, there is such a thing as an expedited path to transformation. And my Guru holds the key to our expedited transformation. Only he knows how to craft the beginning, the middle and the end. It is almost like he already knows what results he will get and so, he will design a method for us to undergo in order to achieve that result. All we really need to do, is just believe.
 

[Ensapa]

To be honest, I dont really feel that it is mad at all because it is just a different perception or a different view of things. It is just something that challenges our ordinary view of things and challenges what we think of something. For example, Tilopa appears as someone who ate live fish to challenge Naropa's projection of him when in reality, it was more or less Naropa's delusions that made him saw his Guru do that and to rid himself of those delusions, he was ignored and made to do all sorts of gruntwork and silly things to erase those delusional thoughts. The practice of Tantra, has always been, and will always challenge our conventions of things. For example, images of Buddhas with consorts would have created a huge uproar amongst the ancients who could not even tolerate a hint of indecency, where even when a woman walking with unkept hair was not tolerated. To see Buddhas in sexual union would have been an incredible shock to them as it basically rips their concept of purity and sex to shreds. A Buddha, the purest being in the universe, engaged in sex?! I could imagine how this could throw many unprepared people off tangent.

In my experience, my Guru does say things that normal people would consider rude, act in a way that is somewhat against the cultural perception of what a monk does (Asian Buddhist culture dictates that the student is not to accept any sort of aid from a monk, as a monk does not have any property so to take things from someone who has no property is rude and dishonorable, but my Guru gives freely to his students, especially to those who need them: financial aid, material gifts, medicine, food, etc.) so I dont think that we should put our teachers into small little boxes that act in accord with what we want and our projections of what they should do. If we do that, then why do we need a Guru anyway? Their job is to break our small projections so that eventually, we will be able to see the bigger picture: everything from an enlightened point of view.