Author Topic: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden  (Read 17910 times)

DharmaDefender

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The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« on: September 20, 2010, 07:42:31 AM »
I've just been reading A saint in Seattle: the life of the Tibetan mystic Dezhung Rinpoche and came across this quote:

Quote
After this, he reconsecrated the chapel to the deity Beg tse. He defied Shugs ldan to take revenge. When nothing happened, the frightened monks lost their faith in Shugs ldan and accepted the new protective deity.

It's the kind of thing anti-Shugden practitioners will quote to show Dorje Shugden is a vengeful spirit. But really, the cycle of misinformation and misunderstanding continues because surely:

(1) that Dorje Shugden didn't take revenge shows he hasn't got the ego of being slighted

(2) the fact the monks were frightened he would take revenge, and then lost their faith demonstrates they did not know why they were propitiating Dorje Shugden to begin with. Without a good understanding of a practice, and without having set your motivation, of course your commitment to it is going to waver like that.

It saddens me to read all this negative information about Dorje Shugden (just type in 'rDo rje shugs ldan' and see what I mean), especially when it is used next to the term 'cult' when it is clearly not.

(1) a cult is characterised by the embracement of something new, or a scripture or teaching that has been completely lost or forgotten...but Dorje Shugden is not something new, or something that has been completely lost or forgotten. It is a practice that has been around for 350 years which, granted, is relatively new compared to other practices like say, the Heart Sutra but new isn't negative. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any less effective or beneficial. It could mean we didn't have the merit for the practice to be revealed to us much earlier; it wasn't the time for the practice to grow.

(2) a cult is more likely to be led by a charismatic leader (of the Rev Jim Jones variety)...but Pabongka is nothing like that. Yes, he is charismatic but we don't worship Pabongka Rinpoche; we aren't slaves hanging on to his every word. We practise guru devotion towards him, much like other students all over the world practise guru devotion to their teachers.

(3) a cult often integrates elements of existing religious theologies. They are also more likely to combine many sources to form more esoteric theologies...but Dorje Shugden's practice is not synthesised from many sources. It comes from one source, under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne. Even if you want to argue that it comes from more than one source (Tagphu Pemavajra, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche etc), what distinguishes this lineage from the lineage of other practices? Nothing, it's still from teacher to student, like other practices. Likewise, the sources are verifiable and authentic, and the level of esotericism in Dorje Shugden's practice is no more than any other practice.

Some people need to pick up a dictionary!

iloveds

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 12:22:16 PM »
i would say from the lack of replies you've hit the nail on the head.

DS = not a cult
DS = not a spirit
DS = not for people who don't investigate for themselves fact from fiction

Helena

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 12:45:47 PM »
I guess with the ban / controversy we will all get to see who are the true practitioners and believers in Dorje Shugden and who are really into superstition and cult following.

Perhaps this is a time when we get to seive through the chaff from the real deal - so-to-speak.

Helena

WisdomBeing

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 03:12:52 PM »
Dear Dharma Defender,

I was quite shocked to read what you posted from Saint in Seattle - it is so illogical that if Dorje Shugden didn't take revenge, the monks lost faith. I really hope that this did not really happen. I would think that monks would have more knowledge than that. Sad.

Thanks for your sharing re cult. Your points clearly explain why Dorje Shugden practice is not a cult. i think that many people don't even know what defines a cult so your post will clarify matters.



Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

beggar

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 04:04:16 PM »

(1) a cult is characterised by the embracement of something new, or a scripture or teaching that has been completely lost or forgotten...but Dorje Shugden is not something new, or something that has been completely lost or forgotten. It is a practice that has been around for 350 years which, granted, is relatively new compared to other practices like say, the Heart Sutra but new isn't negative. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any less effective or beneficial. It could mean we didn't have the merit for the practice to be revealed to us much earlier; it wasn't the time for the practice to grow.


This is why lineage is so very key and important to ensuring that our lineage and the teachings we receive are authentic. This is a key point in Buddhist teachings. Just as you have said, cults are often characterised by teachings of something new (i.e. unfounded, with no authentic lineage - what? did someone just make this up?!) or on something that has been lost (i.e. there is no longer any lineage, and is therefore subject to being misinterpreted or again "made up".)

The very fact that all Dorje Shugden practitioners also practice the Lamrim (in fact, this is a prerequisite of a successful DS practice) proves that it is NOT a cult - the lamrim is based entirely on logic and a very traceable, authentic lineage... unless you doubt Lama Tsongkhapa, Atisha, and all the indian masters before him!

I believe another characteristic of cults is the way they deny followers from questioning since it is (like you also pointed out) based entirely upon a charismatic leader. Again, DS practitioners in monasteries (and in lay dharma centres everywhere else) are always encouraged in the practices of debate and learning and study. The very foundation of this practice is in questioning, debate, logic. How can this be cultish in any way?

I would like to understand more about HOW people come to consider DS a cult - what is the reasoning behind their claims? (I'd like to know their reasons so we can counter them). So far, all I hear is that "It is a cult" but the arguments stops there and there is no explanation why they make that claim. All very illogical and rhetorical.

triesa

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 04:45:25 PM »


I would like to understand more about HOW people come to consider DS a cult - what is the reasoning behind their claims? (I'd like to know their reasons so we can counter them). So far, all I hear is that "It is a cult" but the arguments stops there and there is no explanation why they make that claim. All very illogical and rhetorical.

Dear beggar

Basically they have no rightful claims.

1) I think one of the reasons why people is claiming DS as a cult is that they are riding on the assumption that DS is a spirit and so he must be evil.  So it is based on WRONG ASSUMPTION WITHOUT CORRECT FINDINGS of how DS arose as a Dharma protector.

2) The other reason I could think of is that it is so easy to call DS a cult as a "defamation" for further people to follow and do DS practice. This is to create doubt in people's mind. Their motive may be due to POLITICAL REASON.

And thank you Dharma defendar for clarifying "CULT". And I also wonder what kind of monks are those who gave up DS as a deity and the practice so easily just because DS would not take revenge? Truely sad and I don't know what kind of Buddhadharma they are taking refuge in??

Triesa

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 05:25:52 PM »
It is rather sad to see this being mentioned but remember, Dezhung Rinpoche is an incarnate Lama of the Sakya order and if you look at the tradition's checkered history in relations to Dorje Shugden practice. The Sakyas were the first to embrace Dorje Shugden as a Dharma protector. Much scriptural evidence reveals that they regarded Dorje Shugden as an Enlightened Dharma Protector and not just a mere worldly protector. However, things changed over the last hundred years saw to degeneration of this practice as many Sakya Lamas and patriarchs seemed to have abandoned it. Dezhung Rinpoche is not unique of this trend within the Sakya school as even the patriarch Sakya Trizin have officially denounced this deity and practice.

Then HH the 16th Karmapa said: "There will come a time in the future that we will have to pray to this Protector" This is as written in H.E. Dagom Rinpoche's text. Many other lamas of other sects have also supported or even practised Dorje Shugden in the past such as the great Sakyapa master, Kunkhyen Ngawang Kunga Lodroe.? (Sachen Kunga Lodro is the forefather of the current Sakya Trizin!!!) --> http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-hh-the-th-karmapa-hwayue-[deGLdfwjH00].cfm



beggar

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2010, 12:34:31 PM »
I have been thinking about this subject of "cults" because it has become such a sensitive subject. A few bad apples had made any religious group subject to scrutiny and skepticism.

When we talk about the "cult" of Dorje Shugden, I think it will inevitably become mixed up with the subject of perceived cult-like behaviour within Buddhism as a whole, particular in the area of Guru devotion which is very misunderstood and often put through a lot of criticism. For example, I have read many damaging accounts of how even Geshe Kelsang Gyatso' organisation has been accused of being a cult.

So why is it that people think that way? I think that the biggest contributor to this perception are the students themselves - how we carry ourselves, speak about our teachers (or any practices), and how our practice is reflected. If we are nasty, rude people but we are so involved with our centre, people won't help but think, "what is this centre and guru teaching them?" Do we complain about our centre? Do we give the impression that our gurus are tyrants that make us do things we don't want to do / against our will? How do we reflect the teacher and the centre?

This is applicable for both the subject of guru devotion and also for this topic in this thread about the "cult" of dorje shugden. See, we don't look upon Trijang Rinpoche and think, "oh he must be in a cult" simply because his actions have brought so much benefit and reflect so much compassion that it will never cross our mind that he is doing anything at all negative. Can we do the same?

contemplatively yours, beggar

WisdomBeing

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2010, 02:27:47 PM »
I was reading this article, http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3880, which might shed some light over who is calling Dorje Shugden a 'cult'.

http://www.newsweek.com/1997/05/04/murder-in-a-monastery.html is the actual article from Newsweek (5 May 1997) - and it reports: "In the past year, the Dalai Lama, who met last week with Jewish leaders and Bill Clinton in Washington, has denounced the Shugden sect as a hostile faction and a crass, commercial cult"

It is quite ironic that this article quotes the Dalai Lama as saying that Shugden practitioners are stopping religious freedom!

"That cult is actually destroying the freedom of religious thought,"

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

kurava

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 04:25:00 AM »
It's really illogical that when DS didn't take revenge, the monks abandoned the practice.

Wisdom Being, I share your feeling that it's sad that these "monks" are so easily shaken from their faith.

When these people brand the DS practice as "cult" without doing thorough investigation, it only shows  :
1) they are lazy to check out, hence they just follow the crowd mentality . In this case since DL is a world renown Buddhist leader , it'd be easier to just follow whatever DL says.
2) they lack the intelligence to discriminate right from wrong. Therefore safer to follow DL.

Well, to each his own. People have the right to choose their own practice, I only wish they don't brand and condemn DS practitioners so mindlessly.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 05:12:18 AM »


The high lamas, regent, Dalai Lama, Abbots, Panchen Lama, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa all prayed, did extensive rituals and pujas to Protectors Pelden Hlamo, Kalarupa, Mahakala, Chamsing-Begtse, Dorje Drolod, Nechung, Tenma and the likes in 1950-1959 for expelling the Red Army from Tibet..it didnt work and it still hasn't worked. Should we abandon all these deities also?

TK

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 05:53:03 PM »
It's really illogical that when DS didn't take revenge, the monks abandoned the practice.

Wisdom Being, I share your feeling that it's sad that these "monks" are so easily shaken from their faith.

When these people brand the DS practice as "cult" without doing thorough investigation, it only shows  :
1) they are lazy to check out, hence they just follow the crowd mentality . In this case since DL is a world renown Buddhist leader , it'd be easier to just follow whatever DL says.
2) they lack the intelligence to discriminate right from wrong. Therefore safer to follow DL.

Well, to each his own. People have the right to choose their own practice, I only wish they don't brand and condemn DS practitioners so mindlessly.

I like what you say about "don't brand and condemn DS practitioners". However, it's going to take quite a bit to change the views of others. Thus, being a sincere practitioner will reflect who our Protector is...that this is not a cultish practice.

Helena

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 06:10:23 PM »
Sometimes, what works and not work depends on how we view at life and things.

No Buddhas can undo our karma. Let alone the karma of a whole nation.

Some things might take a lot of purification processes. While other things may require the right conditions to bear fruit.

In samsara, it seems to be very natural to develop delusions or deluded views. Because something did not happen according to how we may like or have prayed hard for, and so, we would deem it as bad or useless. we may even abandon the whole practice due to such deluded thoughts.

I remember reading a passage from Liberation In the Palm of Your Hand - "You lose both what you possess and have yet to acquire, and you gain great suffering."

Who is to say that the great number of prayers have not bore fruit? It might just be that the result is really for the best interest of the greater whole, even if it does not resemble it at that moment.

Who is to say that there could have been a fate much worse if the high lamas, the Regent, Dalai Lama did not pray at all?

If we should start to doubt the Three Jewels, then nothing the Buddha has said and taught is correct.

For how can the Three Jewels be right about some things and wrong about another. Perhaps we need to check deeper into our own minds.

Another of my favourite lines from the Lamrim -

Save me from doubt, that terrible ghost,
That cruel one who flies in a sky of utter blindness,
Who harms my yearning for conviction,
Who murders my liberation.


I shall quote from another beautiful paragraph from the Lamrim -

Our Tibet, the Land of Snows, has features not generally found in other countries; and the only root of our immediate and longterm happiness is Buddha's teachings. Whether or not these teachings still flourish is not due to our houses, population, or our colourful offerings; it depends on the ethics of the pratimoksha vows - the root of the teachings. If we do not have these ethics purely, it shows that our ethics have died out in our own mindstreams and our own share of the teachings have died out, even though externally the teachings may be widespread as the rocks and ground itself.

Whenever I read these lines, I am reminded to look at the bigger picture of life and people - beyond what I like or want to see.

And when I think further, I can't help but think that all the High Lamas' prayers worked - they did keep the Chinese Red Army out. Because Buddhism is not destroyed. In fact, it has flourished and gone out to the rest of the world.

Here, I see that Tibet is Buddhism and Buddhism is Tibet. As long as Buddhism lives on, Tibet lives on. Where there is Buddhism, there is Tibet.

In this respect, to me, Tibet is everywhere - not confined by the Himalayans, the great rivers and the skies or clouds. It is really free.
Helena

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2010, 05:00:52 PM »
The temporal situation in Tibet is a perfect example of impermanence. Every single country has evolved over time - there have been changes of geographical borders, changes of rulers, state religions and balances of power throughout history.

Tibet is no different.

The only way that Tibetan Buddhism will live on is not due to the geographical country but because of the sincerity of the lineage Masters and its practitioners. While we are living in degenerate times, Buddhism is on the decline and as prophesied, the teachings of Shakyamuni will come to an end, so let's not wait til Maitreya comes but let's go to Tushita heaven and seek Tsongkhapa, his disciples and Dorje Shugden before it's too late.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

pgdharma

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Re: The 'cult' of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »
Each and everyone of us have our own views and opinions due to our karma, imprints and perceptions. However, it is very sad to note that some people view Dorje Shugden as a 'cult' practice. How can praying to an enlightened being is considered a 'cult' practice?

Dorje Shugden would not take revenge showed us that He is an enlightened being. Yet the monks lost faith. It showed us how unstable their minds were and that their faith is not strong.  And surprisingly, they have no knowledge whatsoever. They or all those non-practitioners who viewed Dorje Shugden as a 'cult' practice should check out and find out more and get their info right before they condemn the real and sincere practitioners mindlessly.