Author Topic: The Great Dilemma  (Read 8835 times)

beggar

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The Great Dilemma
« on: October 05, 2010, 06:22:11 PM »
THIS is great:

An article and videos entitled THE GREAT DILEMMA: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3525

The videos themselves are not new but the article that accompanies it gives a very relevant perspective. Instead of just seeing the dalai lama as bad bad bad, this article brings to our awareness the much bigger dilemma that so many of the Tibetan community are having to face. It shows that the Tibetans themselves are not against the dalai lama nor speak badly of him. The pain they are suffering comes from this conundrum - how do you choose a "side" when you are committed and devoted to both, equally?

So the picture that the rest of the world is painting - that the dalai lama is bad, full stop - is not really that accurate. it is not about that for the Tibetans and it doesn't seem that the Tibetan people want to bring him down. It seems to be more a question of how to navigate this dilemma that doesn't allow you to express your loyalty to both your teacher and your practice. How do you "sit on the fence" or play politically / spiritually correct in this case?

jessicajameson

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 08:09:37 PM »
It's a hard choice, isn't it?

I don't know what I'd do. ....

I've seen the video twice, with a span of 3-4 months in between watching them. The first time I watched it, admittedly, I did feel a sliiiiight negative feeling towards HHDL (sorry). I didn't want to feel that way, but it just naturally arose in me when I saw the lady crying in the video...and that man who came all the way to Dharamsala to see HHDL but because he was a shugdenpa, he couldn't (and cried).

That negative feeling lasted for a few days, till I started reading more, talking to my mates more about the issue....and I slowly started to realize, "No. HHDL is not like that. He is Chenrezig. There must be a reason."

So I kept asking more and more questions to understand better. Watching the video a second time, created a different feeling. It wasn't negative.

It's still uncomfortable to watch the video, I can't stand to see sangha members cry coz it's so darn genuine that it really hits your heart.

Sorry, side tracking. What would I do in that situation? Isolate myself? If I wasn't a public figure, or any one of any sort of public importance, I'd go into a life-long retreat. If I was someone in the public eye, I'd probably take the Trijang Rinpoche approach and say that I'm not taking either sides.

WisdomBeing

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2010, 04:33:57 PM »
i know what you mean, Jess - when I watched those people who were suffering - especially the sangha - it really made me feel very sad. But as you said - i look to the previous Trijang Rinpoche who tells us not to lose faith in the Dalai Lama and the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, who also appears to follow the same line. I very much admire the current young Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche for even giving up his robes so that he doesn't have to choose.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

gohdi

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2010, 09:46:06 PM »
The DL could stop the Dilemma very easily in a few seconds. Very sad, that this is not happening.
_()_

triesa

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 01:13:00 AM »
Thank you Begger for sharing this video to the forum.

I have seen this video many times, again and again. Since day one when I first saw this video, I did not have a negative thought about the Dalai Lama, why? Because the conflict, contradiction and illogical statments made and  created did not make sense at all. How could his teachers be all wrong if the Dalai Lama has received teachings and initiations from all these great lamas? If his teachers are wrong, then Dalai Lama could also be wrong too.  Dalai Lama made himself look so much like a fool that he is no fool at all. The sufferings created to many DS practitioners by this ban could be viewed as a way of purification of our negative karma.

The other conflict is that DL said Dorje Shugden is a spirit and worshipping Dorje Shugden would harm DL's life, but then if all the high lamas like Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche who are renowned to be DS practitioners all reincarnate back, so Dorje Shugden does not really harm the lives of these high lamas and thus could not harm the live of DL as well.

The mere fact that DL is talking about the ban on DS practice all the time has DIRECTLY created so much more awareness to the general public who have not even heard of this deity Dorje Shugden. It is like an orchestrated bad mouth campaign to stir interest in everyone, and when everyone start to look and dig into the matter, they too will begin to see the truth.

It was prophesized that when the current 14th Dalai Lama passes away, his incarnation will not be coming back as the 15th Dalai Lama.  Well, this does not mean that Chenrizig will not come back at all, Chenrizig will always enmanate back and back again but in other forms or beings to benefit us. So who will take the lead to protect and propagate the Gelug lineage? Personally I reckon Dorje Shugden will be at the center stage as he is the uncommon protector who cannot be silenced at this age.

And also don't forget that the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is among us today!

 

kurava

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 09:56:06 AM »
On a lower mundane level ,I can relate to how the Tibetan people feel. It is like asking a child to choose between his/her parents that are in argument or in a divorce.

The child loves both parents dearly, owes everything to them equally and their blood runs in his blood inseparably. How to choose ? ? ?

It really pains me to see the Tibetans being torn this way.

Only faith can help us to be strong and steadfast. If we believe that both DL and DS are buddhas, then the buddhas are working in mysterious ways that mortals like us simply do not have the higher wisdom and purer karma to see the whole scheme of things. Time will tell the final effect of these sequence of actions and events. However , as it stands, due to all the "negative" publicity, DS has become widely known.

Vajraprotector

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 08:36:45 PM »
On a lower mundane level ,I can relate to how the Tibetan people feel. It is like asking a child to choose between his/her parents that are in argument or in a divorce.

The child loves both parents dearly, owes everything to them equally and their blood runs in his blood inseparably. How to choose ? ? ?

It really pains me to see the Tibetans being torn this way.

Only faith can help us to be strong and steadfast. If we believe that both DL and DS are buddhas, then the buddhas are working in mysterious ways that mortals like us simply do not have the higher wisdom and purer karma to see the whole scheme of things. Time will tell the final effect of these sequence of actions and events. However , as it stands, due to all the "negative" publicity, DS has become widely known.


I agree with you Kurava. Many people feel torn by the 'choice', but luckily, there are some guidance provided for us to see, eg

a) Gaden Trisur Rinpoche, who stuck on with Dorje Shugden, and switched "camps" after his term. Trisur Rinpoche remained loyal to his Guru and practice, despite his official position as Gaden Tripa when the Dalai Lama was actively discouraging the practice. Gaden Tripa did not criticise the Dalai Lama during his tenure nor after his tenure, although I am sure His Holiness would have felt it is not "fair".

b) Monks who break off and now happily practising in Shar Gaden and Serpom, and many places in Tibet and around the world, who don't focus on criticise the Dalai Lama, but focus on promoting the lineage and keeping the lineage and practise alive.

Having said that, there are many that are being put in difficult positions, eg monks who would be ostracised if they switch camps, lay people who don't have idea on how to go on as they are being ostracised by their own community and so on.  I do hope the ban or difficult time for Shugden practitioners will end soon, as the sufferings are real and people shouldn't be punished for believing in a Dharmapala - they are not committing crime or anything!

Helena

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 06:20:11 AM »
On a lower mundane level ,I can relate to how the Tibetan people feel. It is like asking a child to choose between his/her parents that are in argument or in a divorce.

The child loves both parents dearly, owes everything to them equally and their blood runs in his blood inseparably. How to choose ? ? ?

It really pains me to see the Tibetans being torn this way.

Only faith can help us to be strong and steadfast. If we believe that both DL and DS are buddhas, then the buddhas are working in mysterious ways that mortals like us simply do not have the higher wisdom and purer karma to see the whole scheme of things. Time will tell the final effect of these sequence of actions and events. However , as it stands, due to all the "negative" publicity, DS has become widely known.


Dear Kurava,

I can truly relate to your analogy of the two parents and a child caught in between. It is indeed an analogy that grips everyone's heart and enables people to relate.

A lot of people may not understand and this dilemma confuses them. But as you put it so eloquently for all to see - how can one be made to choose between two parents. A child would love both parents equally.

I think whether there are any disagreements or differences between two parents, or high lamas in this case - it should not deter any child from loving both parents. No child would be able to understand completely what is going on between two parents. But what the child can do is to continue loving and supporting both sides, equally. That would enable the child to continue creating harmony and peace with both parents. As from the side of the child, there is no negativity.

In the case of the "highly evolved drama" between Enlightened Beings - it is even more profound and deep. We as ordinary beings would not have the capacity to judge, understand and know. We simply do not have their clairvoyant and gifts.

Hence, from our side as spiritual practitioners, we should continue to practice as best we can and not engage in activities that would deter us from our path, or create any negativities.

I think problems arise when we insist on thinking that what we see or think is right and that is absolute. How can we possibly know for sure? We do not have the attainments to even control our emotions. Hence, from our side, we should try as best to NOT incur any more bad karma and choose the path that allows us to continue with positive attitude.

Sometimes it is under the most stressful and challenging situations that something wonderful would arise. Because without these adversities, we will not be pushed to the next level. So, sometimes it may be a blessing in disguise. All depends on how we look at it, and our attitudes towards dealing with the situation at hand.

Yes, we can cry because we are hurt and deeply saddened. But we always have another choice - we can rise. In rising, we find a higher meaning of spirituality and we become someone much better than before.

Have faith. The sun will soon shine again because it has never left the sky.

Helena

DSFriend

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2010, 11:18:26 AM »
a) Gaden Trisur Rinpoche, who stuck on with Dorje Shugden, and switched "camps" after his term. Trisur Rinpoche remained loyal to his Guru and practice, despite his official position as Gaden Tripa when the Dalai Lama was actively discouraging the practice. Gaden Tripa did not criticise the Dalai Lama during his tenure nor after his tenure, although I am sure His Holiness would have felt it is not "fair".



I remember feeling elated when I came to know of His Holiness Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal entering Shar Gaden when his term as 101st Gaden Tri ended.  http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2992
Then I thought about it...did he ever stop practicing Dorje Shugden while he held his term? It simply can't be that HH stopped practicing and then started back again after his term!

Talking about sitting on the fence and having to choose... The 101st Gaden Tri chose both! That makes me think that there are many monks in the monasteries who choose both, to not be against Dalai Lama outwardly yet continue with the holy protector practice. If we look to learn how we should approach this matter, let's learn from His Holiness Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal and the many monks in the monasteries.

peace...

triesa

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 03:25:18 PM »
You are absolutely right DS Friend.

The 101st Gaden Tri is not the only example here, look at the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, and Gangchen Rinpoche, just to name a few,  they are devoted DS practitioners but we have never heard anything from them that is against H.H. the Dalai Lama.

So it makes all the more reason to learn from these elucidate high lamas instead of using our narrow and deluded minds to judge and criticize.

The dilemma is for a BIGGER picture, so for the time being.........peace as you said. ;)


Vajraprotector

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 10:20:57 PM »
I think it was a hard time for me when the controversy got worse, my thought revolved around the 3 points below and I spent many hours thinking about them over and over again ...

a) His Holiness is wrong. He's a liar/ hypocrit ? -  BUT that will contradict my belief and prayers that he is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara who has brought so much benefit in his many incarnation and has made Buddhism such a big thing in today's society.

b) His Holiness is right and he's an emanation of Avalokiteshvara? - THEN, why is he putting a ban and creating difficult situations for monks and lay people to give up Shugden practice? His Holiness even went to the 'extreme' of asking the monks to choose the stick in the monastery.

c) How can His Holiness compose prayers to Shugden - a wisdom Buddha, at a certain point of his life and then later said that he himself is wrong, that Shugden is a demon?!

Reading the materials and watching the videos on this website has really helped me a lot in making a decision. I am especially grateful to know of the high lamas that hasn't given up, great masters such as Gaden Trisur and others.

This has given me hope that there is a middle way to go about this, and I don't have to be against His Holiness, nor choose to be against Shugden masters.

hope rainbow

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Re: The Great Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 02:00:52 PM »
I think I posted this on this forum already, but I think it is very relevant here again.

This dates back in the late 1930's, early 40's in Tibet, when the parties of Ratreng Rinpoche (current Regent) and Tagdrag Rinpoche (ex-Regent) were busy at "getting" at each others, some people from Tagdrag Rinpoche's entourage did "black magic" to hurt the body of Ratreng Rinpoche, then they got arrested, evenTagdrag Rinpoche got arrested, enjailed, questionned and passed away in jail 20 days later (rumors even circulated then that he was murdered).
These events led some people to engage in non-virtous speech, mind and body actions, and many got very agitated.
This is what Trijang Rinpoche (previous incarnation) writes in his biography about these events:

"This is the kind of situation in which one needs to be very careful not to IMPUTE fault or pass JUDGEMENT upon the actions of HOLY BEINGS."

And Trijang Rinpoche also indicated clearly that both Tagdrag Rinpoche and Ratreng Rinpoche were highly realized beings.

I think we could say the same thing today, as the situations have similarities, apparent conflict to agitated eyes, thus we should also be VERY CAREUL not to impute fault or pass judgement upon the actions of holy beings like The Dalai Lama or Trijang Rinpoche for example.