Unreliability of Nechung at times

[thaimonk]

"His Holiness the Dalai Lama consulted Palden Lhamo by means of divination and other methods to discover whether the propitiation of Shugden could be continued or should be prohibited."

Actually, HH the Dalai Lama consulted the State Oracle:

1rst answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)"

2nd answer of the State Oracle:

"the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group"

3rd answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."

4rth answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen"

5th answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."

6th answer of the State Oracle:

"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."

7th answer of the State Oracle:

"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government."


When HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented his "proofs" to HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, his Tutor answered:

"Palden Lhamo would not lie to You"

(from a previous post of Heartspoon)

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It is truly amazing how Nechung in trance changes his answers to the Dalai Lama regarding Dorje Shugden.

One of the main causes of the ban on Dorje Shugden are the statements made by Nechung.

The inconsistencies are alarming.

[beggar]

This is very surprising and shocking to read, especially when presented so starkly (but very well organised, thank you thaimonk! Makes it very easy for us to read).

It all seems very contradictory and confusing, especially as the history of how DS arose as a protector in the first place came about by Nechung's prompting, encouragement and help.

I have also always found it quite confusing why Dalai Lama would consult an unenlightened protector for such important matters of the state and not pelden lhamo (or any other fully enlightened protector). Even in this case, he is shown as choosing the state oracle's answers to "support" his reasons for the ban, as opposed to consulting an enlightened protector who surely would know better?

[WisdomBeing]

This is very surprising and shocking to read, especially when presented so starkly (but very well organised, thank you thaimonk! Makes it very easy for us to read).

It all seems very contradictory and confusing, especially as the history of how DS arose as a protector in the first place came about by Nechung's prompting, encouragement and help.

I have also always found it quite confusing why Dalai Lama would consult an unenlightened protector for such important matters of the state and not pelden lhamo (or any other fully enlightened protector). Even in this case, he is shown as choosing the state oracle's answers to "support" his reasons for the ban, as opposed to consulting an enlightened protector who surely would know better?

Yes i have posted about this question in another thread to.. as to why the Dalai Lamas have traditionally consulted an unenlightened Protector. I also understand that there's no oracle of Pelden Lhamo, which could be why she is not consulted but for example, they could consult Setrap, who does speak through an oracle and who is also a Ri-me protector?

[Vajraprotector]

These are 2 sources that I recalled re Nechung being recognised as the state oracle of Tibet. 

1. It was at this time that [Fifth Dalai Lama] that the Nechung Oracle was attached to the famous monastery of Drepung and recognised as the State Oracle of Tibet. It was regarded as the highest authority and its advice was sought whenever there was a difficulty in finding the reincarnation or Tulku of a high Lama, or whenever a political decision of great importance was to be made.”
Pg 181, The Way of the White Clouds by Lama Anagarika Govinda (Shambala Boston, 1970)


2. The Fourteenth Dalai Lama states, “Since the time of the Victorious Gedun Gyatso, the second Dalai Lama, Nechung has been one of the two state protectors referred to as the Red and Black protectors, who have had special connection with Tibet’s Ganden Potang government.”
From a talk about gods and protectors on June 25th, 1980 in Mundgod, India

Yes,  I too wonder why is it that Nechung, who has not only been “unreliable” now but seen ages ago, are still being consulted

Also, Nechung has given false prophesies through the oracle in trance even during the 13th Dalai Lama time (not only now) and these have been documented. For example, a victory against the British promised by Nechung in 1888 did not occur. Tibetans suffered a devastating defeat and also another British military invasion in 1904. Later, Nechung is also believed to have prescribed the wrong medicine which caused the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s death.  (more details can be found in Portrait of a Dalai Lama: The Life and Times of the Great Thirteenth by Charles Bell)

[triesa]

2. The Fourteenth Dalai Lama states, “Since the time of the Victorious Gedun Gyatso, the second Dalai Lama, Nechung has been one of the two state protectors referred to as the Red and Black protectors, who have had special connection with Tibet’s Ganden Potang government.”
From a talk about gods and protectors on June 25th, 1980 in Mundgod, India

Yes,  I too wonder why is it that Nechung, who has not only been “unreliable” now but seen ages ago, are still being consulted

Also, Nechung has given false prophesies through the oracle in trance even during the 13th Dalai Lama time (not only now) and these have been documented. For example, a victory against the British promised by Nechung in 1888 did not occur. Tibetans suffered a devastating defeat and also another British military invasion in 1904. Later, Nechung is also believed to have prescribed the wrong medicine which caused the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s death.  (more details can be found in Portrait of a Dalai Lama: The Life and Times of the Great Thirteenth by Charles Bell)

Also Nechung did not give the correct path for escape for the 14th Dalai Lama when he had to leave Tibet for India, it was Dorje Shugden who gave the exact escape route that had ensured the safe arrival of Dalai lama to India during the invasion of the Chinese army in Tibet.

The only connection I can think of for Nechung to have a close tie with the Tibet’s Ganden Potang government was that Nechung was subdued by Guru Rinpoche to protect Buddhism in Tibet.

Vajraprotector, you mentioned there are two state protectors ,"red" and "black" protectors, of which Nechung is one of them, what are red and black protectors?

[Big Uncle]

That sounds like Nechung again... stirring trouble like he used to. His answers sound a lot like a bad radio frequency with a lot of radio interferences. It would be interesting to hear what Palden Lhamo would say about what he said. How can an emanation of a Buddha not be happy with another emanation of another Buddha. I thought all of them are enlightened. Well, I know Nechung is not enlightened and cannot be trusted. I also think Dalai Lama knows this and is using the occasion for something else...

[DSFriend]

Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.

[Zach]

Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.

Well Lets play devils advocate and say that Nechung If actually a Bodhisattva on high levels currently, So why would his predicitions be misproven and blatantly wrong in some cases ?
 

[Vajraprotector]

Vajraprotector, you mentioned there are two state protectors ,"red" and "black" protectors, of which Nechung is one of them, what are red and black protectors?

As far as I know, the red and black protectors referred to the protectors whom Guru Rinpoche sent as "helpers" to His Holiness the Dalai Lama when the second Dalai Lama went into clear light and told Guru Rinpoche that he didn't wish to return. The red is Nechung and the black is Palden Lhamo.

I've read this before from the interview with Kuten Lama (medium) for Nechung (http://youngtibet.com/2010/08/becoming-a-medium-making-the-deity-visible%E2%80%94tibets-state-oracle/).


When Padmasambhava brought Buddhism to Tibet 1300 years ago, he faced many obstacles. He therefore deemed it necessary to bring forth a guardian—one with a strong connection to Chenrezig—who would protect the teachings in their entirety.

So Muni Tsenpo, who was King Trisong Deutsen’s son, sent an intermediary to Mongolia to bring back the Protector. To effect this, there was an outer appearance of a war, including the capture of vessels belonging to the Protector. These included a raksha skin mask, a turquoise statue of Tara, and a mother-of-pearl statue of Chenrezig. These were the physical base of the Protector, who was bound to oath by Padmasambhava to become the guardian of Tibet and its Buddhist doctrine.

As to the origin of the Protector’s appearance through a physical medium, it began with the third Dalai Lama. When the second Dalai died, he went to a Pure Land, where he told Padmasambhava that he did not wish to return to this world. Padmasambhava advised him to take rebirth because of the importance of his role as Avalokiteshvara, but that to help him he, Guru Rinpoche, would send him two protectors—one red, one black. The red referred to Nechung, and the black to Palden Lhamo. But it was in the reign of the Fifth Dalai Lama, when the Nechung Monastery was completed, that the institution of the Nechung Protector became official.

[triesa]

Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.

Well Lets play devils advocate and say that Nechung If actually a Bodhisattva on high levels currently, So why would his predicitions be misproven and blatantly wrong in some cases ?
 

If Nechung is nearing to enlightenment, then all these inconsistent statements could be viewed as an enlightened act as paving the way for the next protector to come forth, whom I believe is Dorje shugden, As afterall, it was Nechung who appeared as a dove to request Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to stand as a protector for Tsongkhapa teachings, and Nechung promised to provide the right conditions when the time was right.

[Zach]

Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.

Well Lets play devils advocate and say that Nechung If actually a Bodhisattva on high levels currently, So why would his predicitions be misproven and blatantly wrong in some cases ?
 

If Nechung is nearing to enlightenment, then all these inconsistent statements could be viewed as an enlightened act as paving the way for the next protector to come forth, whom I believe is Dorje shugden, As afterall, it was Nechung who appeared as a dove to request Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to stand as a protector for Tsongkhapa teachings, and Nechung promised to provide the right conditions when the time was right.

Well only time can tell that my friend on the other hand if via the passing of time things only worsen then what are we to make of it ? I pray only that this is truly the work of enlightened activities and not a sever degeneration.

[thaimonk]

We must remember it was Nechung who asked Dulzin to arise as an uncommon protector of Dorje Shugden's teachings. It was Nechung again who reminded Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen of his promise when he was Dulzin to arise as the protector again.

Nechung had a pivotal role in our Protector's appearance.

This is clearly written in the long kangsol.

[triesa]

We must remember it was Nechung who asked Dulzin to arise as an uncommon protector of Dorje Shugden's teachings. It was Nechung again who reminded Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen of his promise when he was Dulzin to arise as the protector again.

Nechung had a pivotal role in our Protector's appearance.

This is clearly written in the long kangsol.

What Thaimonk said here is absolutely correct. Nechung definitely played a very pivotal role in Dorje Shugden's appearance as an uncommon protector.

So his unlightened predictions to the Dalai Lama may have a hidden enlightened role for a bigger picture.

[WisdomBeing]

It is predicted that Nechung will gain Enlightenment then vacate his position as Protector of Tibet and that Dorje Shugden will step into his shoes... if Nechung is to be enlightened then he must be doing somethings right... and if Dorje Shugden is going to take over soon, then Nechung will also become enlightened soon - so if he is being inaccurate with predictions - there could be other reasons aside from lack of ability.

[Vajraprotector]

It is predicted that Nechung will gain Enlightenment then vacate his position as Protector of Tibet and that Dorje Shugden will step into his shoes... if Nechung is to be enlightened then he must be doing somethings right... and if Dorje Shugden is going to take over soon, then Nechung will also become enlightened soon - so if he is being inaccurate with predictions - there could be other reasons aside from lack of ability.

I personally do not think Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) would assign an unreliable protector (doesn't matter whether the protector is enlightened or not) to persuade His Holiness to take rebirth again 

After all, Guru Rinpoche and His Holiness are Buddhas. What Thai monk and the others have said so far is also very logical and follow the 'flow' of the predictions.