Unreliability of Nechung at times

[Helena]

I find this particular explanation or sharing very logical. It is from a previous post in past threads of the Forum.

As Nechung is not Enlightened, hence, his clairvoyant abilities may not be always so accurate or right. As we have noticed, a lot have turned out to be way off.

But perhaps, Nechung's role is more crucially of a "guardian in transition" and may be not so much of an Oracle even though he is regarded as such. Until the time is right for the Great King to take over, then Nechung can become Enlightened and leave. Which could explain why Nechung requested for Duldzin and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as the Uncommon Protector.

Hence, the most pivotal role Nechung has to play in all of this is to make it possible or make way for the Supreme Protector Dorje Shugden to arise and take over. The unreliability and inconsistencies may be part and package of this whole "illusory play of sorts".


Source: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=79.0

Posted by Mountains on 24th April 2008

Example, when Nechung takes trance in a medium, since he is that of an evil being bound by Guru Rinpoche's compassion, he can fortell the future and remove some obstacles while in trance, but all his prophecies are not accurate. There has been many mistakes in the past.  Some prophecies were so off the mark, few of the Nechung oracles in Tibetan history were dishonourably discharged or even whipped. Nechung while in trance can do no more than give some clairvoyant limited prophecies due to the level of his mind, which is not enlightened. 

Whereas Dorje Shugden being an incarnation of such illustrious masters has in his previous lives mastered mandalas, rituals, the corpus of Buddha's teachings, divination, debate, poetry, composition, astrology, history,etc. has those knowledge in his continuous mindstream unlike the protectors such as Nechung.

Hence Dorje Shugden when he enters a qualified oracle, may come in two forms: In wrathful form direct protector manifestation or as Dulzin (peaceful form) where he wears the robes of a monk and golden Pandit's hat of Lord Tsongkapa.  In Dulzin's form, he is as he was before he manifested as wrathful Dorje Shugden, a high lama. He can stay in trance for many hours at a time to teach, give advice, debate, give initiation or oral transmissions. He is the only protector who can take trance and offered these types of benefit to sentient beings. Although it can be somewhat taxing for the oracle to be in trance that long.

He has been requested before to take trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten (oracle monk of Gaden) in the peaceful form as Dulzin. While as Dulzin he remained in full trance for over three hours and conferred the full Avalokitesvara initiation. The participants were very fortunate as to recieve Avalokitesvara's initiation from 'Manjushri' Dulzin himself. Whenever they do guru yoga of Avalokitesvara in their sadhana thereafter, they should have no problems in visualizing their initiation guru as perfectly enlightened!!!!


How incredible that Dorje Shugden can and has manifested for everyone to recieve this precious initiation from someone as precious as himself. Or to take any role necessary to benefit others. Of course Dulzin is very humble, he has mentioned it is not necessary for him to give teachings or it is 'improper' to teach when there are qualified masters, but when requested, he must comply. He mentions, he primarily serves as a Dharma protector. That is his main function at this time.

Dorje Shugden as Dulzin also took trance and conferred the full oral transmission of his personal divination text also composed by himself in trance. There are many forms of divination according to Manjushri, pelden hlamo and kalacakra tantras to benefit others using dice from a qualified practitioner. Dorje Shugden also has his personal divination method that is highly accurate after one has completed the proper retreats. So this text and method he has conferred the oral transmission while in full trance in the past. Incredible. I have talked to ppl who has attended the transmission from Dulzin and use this form of divination to benefit others.

[WisdomBeing]

I was just reading this article, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama": http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2624, where it explains that the reason why Pehar was imposed on the Tibetans was because of political reasons.

"It is true that the oracle god has sworn an oath of loyalty, but it is — in the lamas’ opinion — by no means ruled out that he may one day break this and unleash his full vengeance upon the Tibetans who defeated him in times gone by. He has in his own words explained to Padmasambhava what will then happen. He will destroy the houses and the fields. The children of the Land of Snows will have to endure famine and will be driven insane. The fruit of the land will be destroyed by hail and swarms of insects. The strong will be carried off and only the weak shall survive. Wars shall devastate the roof of the world. Pehar himself will interrupt the meditations of the lamas, rob their spells of their magic power, and force them to commit suicide. Brothers will rape their sisters. He will make the wisdom consorts (the mudras) of the tantra masters bad and heretical, yes, transform them into enemies of the teaching who emigrate to the lands of the unbelievers. But first he shall copulate with them. “I,” Pehar proclaims, “the lord of the temples, the stupas and scriptures, I shall possess the fair bodies of all virgins” (Sierksma, 1966, p. 165)."

I thought this could be interesting - what if instead of Nechung being enlightened, he becomes released of his oath and Dorje Shugden subdues him.

Just another possibility.

[Zach]

I was just reading this article, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama": http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2624, where it explains that the reason why Pehar was imposed on the Tibetans was because of political reasons.

"It is true that the oracle god has sworn an oath of loyalty, but it is — in the lamas’ opinion — by no means ruled out that he may one day break this and unleash his full vengeance upon the Tibetans who defeated him in times gone by. He has in his own words explained to Padmasambhava what will then happen. He will destroy the houses and the fields. The children of the Land of Snows will have to endure famine and will be driven insane. The fruit of the land will be destroyed by hail and swarms of insects. The strong will be carried off and only the weak shall survive. Wars shall devastate the roof of the world. Pehar himself will interrupt the meditations of the lamas, rob their spells of their magic power, and force them to commit suicide. Brothers will rape their sisters. He will make the wisdom consorts (the mudras) of the tantra masters bad and heretical, yes, transform them into enemies of the teaching who emigrate to the lands of the unbelievers. But first he shall copulate with them. “I,” Pehar proclaims, “the lord of the temples, the stupas and scriptures, I shall possess the fair bodies of all virgins” (Sierksma, 1966, p. 165)."

I thought this could be interesting - what if instead of Nechung being enlightened, he becomes released of his oath and Dorje Shugden subdues him.

Just another possibility.

I have heard of this to...when Pehar breaks his oath...Its would be interesting if anyone here has any information on the exact promises he made to Guru rinpoche and the specifics of them such as when this time comes...
Seeing the videos of when these spirits are consulted they are always reminded of their oaths, The problem is as times become more degenerate there will come a day when such a prophecy will be fulfilled.

[Big Uncle]

Nah, I don't think Nechung could have released himself from a Vajra commitment to Guru Rinpoche. If he did, Nechung would suffer terrible consequences. Otherwise, what is it that is actually holding him back all this time? He is not stupid. Another way that Nechung could have been released is if he had actually gained enlightenment. If he appears to be going against his vows like what he is doing now with Dorje Shugden is to me a clear sign that he has transcended his vows. After all, there are many clairvoyant Lamas watching him...including the Dalai Lama who is fully aware of what his motivation is. Nothing is as simple as it seems. 

[WisdomBeing]

Big Uncle - it sounded to me a bit like the 'end times' predictions of the bible etc... perhaps every religion has its prophesied 'end' when there is a huge climatic battle between good and evil and of course good will triumph and the golden age will come...

[Zach]

Nah, I don't think Nechung could have released himself from a Vajra commitment to Guru Rinpoche. If he did, Nechung would suffer terrible consequences. Otherwise, what is it that is actually holding him back all this time? He is not stupid. Another way that Nechung could have been released is if he had actually gained enlightenment. If he appears to be going against his vows like what he is doing now with Dorje Shugden is to me a clear sign that he has transcended his vows. After all, there are many clairvoyant Lamas watching him...including the Dalai Lama who is fully aware of what his motivation is. Nothing is as simple as it seems. 

Perhapes, But how would a statement regarding this oath breaking prophecy come into being if not without god cause ?

[Big Uncle]

@WisdomBeing... I don't see any ending or climatic battle in my story. After Nechung becomes enlightened, it is just the beginning. That will mean benefitting others becomes second nature and he will perhaps emanate as a Lama? A Nechung Rinpoche? My imagination is running wild.... Hehe!

@Zach... Well, what I mentioned is merely my speculation. What WisdomBeing quoted is worded to mean that the possibility of Nechung breaking his vows cannot be ruled out completely. As long as he is not a Buddha, the possibility of that happening will always be there. He is just like any of us. He makes mistakes too. I just hope he doesn't do those nasty things.

[Zach]

@WisdomBeing... I don't see any ending or climatic battle in my story. After Nechung becomes enlightened, it is just the beginning. That will mean benefitting others becomes second nature and he will perhaps emanate as a Lama? A Nechung Rinpoche? My imagination is running wild.... Hehe!

@Zach... Well, what I mentioned is merely my speculation. What WisdomBeing quoted is worded to mean that the possibility of Nechung breaking his vows cannot be ruled out completely. As long as he is not a Buddha, the possibility of that happening will always be there. He is just like any of us. He makes mistakes too. I just hope he doesn't do those nasty things.

If there is a prophecy regarding Pehar breaking his oaths then I would take this seriously, If Pehar had the intention to break his oaths then I would take this rather seriously. The havoc Nechung causes by whispering in the ear of the Dalai lama is pretty much apparent to see and whats more shocking is the Dalai lama still relies upon Nechung.
Now honestly using the capacity for critical thinking I dont think its to far to suggest that any bound spirit whom constantly needs to be reminded of his oaths everytime he is summoned will not have been willingly subjegated nor without resent that his oaths represent chains preventing him from having his own way. Pehar may well become enlightened however I fear it shall be in the distant future after all everyone is bound to become enlightened at some stage !
Even with Vajrabindings In degenerate times do not these subjegated beings see the wanning of Buddhas doctrine and dissapearing of Great holy beings as a cause perhapes for their freedom...
I remember one story of Buddha whom was asked to save his clans men for Annihilation, Even when he hid the children in the sun Buddha was unable to stop their karma from ripening that caused them to die. Oaths can be broken as easily as taken of course when the threat of effects of the cause become less apparent to see in Degenerate times then so does the percieved reason for pehars continued servitude as well !

[WisdomBeing]

Re reminding Dharma Protectors of their oaths - is it quite a common thing in all prayers to Dharma Protectors? I read somewhere that even enlightened protectors are reminded of their oaths - perhaps because they manifest as worldly protectors. Although i raised this issue as a possibility, i don't really think that Nechung will break the oath because it would mean that Guru Rinpoche's power to subdue has a shelf life as it were.

Also Nechung was the one who was instrumental in Dorje Shugden manifesting - when he requested Lord Duldzin to promise to be a Protector of Nagarjuna's Middle view as taught by Tsongkhapa, and when he reminded Panchen Sonam Drakpa and then Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen - eventually creating the conditions for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to become Dorje Shugden.

Perhaps Nechung even manifested wrong advice to the Dalai Lama in order to empower Dorje Shugden as Dorje Shugden's advice would be seen to be correct and Dalai Lama would know whose advice would be correct thus who to follow.

Anything is possible.

[thaimonk]

If there is a prophecy regarding Pehar breaking his oaths then I would take this seriously, If Pehar had the intention to break his oaths then I would take this rather seriously. The havoc Nechung causes by whispering in the ear of the Dalai lama is pretty much apparent to see and whats more shocking is the Dalai lama still relies upon Nechung.
Now honestly using the capacity for critical thinking I dont think its to far to suggest that any bound spirit whom constantly needs to be reminded of his oaths everytime he is summoned will not have been willingly subjegated nor without resent that his oaths represent chains preventing him from having his own way. Pehar may well become enlightened however I fear it shall be in the distant future after all everyone is bound to become enlightened at some stage !
Even with Vajrabindings In degenerate times do not these subjegated beings see the wanning of Buddhas doctrine and dissapearing of Great holy beings as a cause perhapes for their freedom...
I remember one story of Buddha whom was asked to save his clans men for Annihilation, Even when he hid the children in the sun Buddha was unable to stop their karma from ripening that caused them to die. Oaths can be broken as easily as taken of course when the threat of effects of the cause become less apparent to see in Degenerate times then so does the percieved reason for pehars continued servitude as well !

Many great masters have said Nechung has been proven wrong many times. You are right Zach, it would be good if Dalai Lama would stop listening to Nechung who seems inconsistent. It is also said that many times a negative spirit actually enters the Nechung Oracle monk to speak posing as Nechung. This is quite dangerous. It is the angry spirit of someone who was wronged by the Tibetan Govt and vowed revenge in Tibet.

[Zach]

If there is a prophecy regarding Pehar breaking his oaths then I would take this seriously, If Pehar had the intention to break his oaths then I would take this rather seriously. The havoc Nechung causes by whispering in the ear of the Dalai lama is pretty much apparent to see and whats more shocking is the Dalai lama still relies upon Nechung.
Now honestly using the capacity for critical thinking I dont think its to far to suggest that any bound spirit whom constantly needs to be reminded of his oaths everytime he is summoned will not have been willingly subjegated nor without resent that his oaths represent chains preventing him from having his own way. Pehar may well become enlightened however I fear it shall be in the distant future after all everyone is bound to become enlightened at some stage !
Even with Vajrabindings In degenerate times do not these subjegated beings see the wanning of Buddhas doctrine and dissapearing of Great holy beings as a cause perhapes for their freedom...
I remember one story of Buddha whom was asked to save his clans men for Annihilation, Even when he hid the children in the sun Buddha was unable to stop their karma from ripening that caused them to die. Oaths can be broken as easily as taken of course when the threat of effects of the cause become less apparent to see in Degenerate times then so does the percieved reason for pehars continued servitude as well !

Many great masters have said Nechung has been proven wrong many times. You are right Zach, it would be good if Dalai Lama would stop listening to Nechung who seems inconsistent. It is also said that many times a negative spirit actually enters the Nechung Oracle monk to speak posing as Nechung. This is quite dangerous. It is the angry spirit of someone who was wronged by the Tibetan Govt and vowed revenge in Tibet.

I would like to see some more Information on this other spirit whom is ment to enter the Nechung oracle. If something is compramised to such a degree then a but of wisdom would suggest not to use it.
Also why is it the Dalai lama seems to rely upon Pehar as a principle protector, In his speeches to Trijang Chocktrul he seems to be suggesting that reliance upon Pehar brings better results...

[WisdomBeing]

Many great masters have said Nechung has been proven wrong many times. You are right Zach, it would be good if Dalai Lama would stop listening to Nechung who seems inconsistent. It is also said that many times a negative spirit actually enters the Nechung Oracle monk to speak posing as Nechung. This is quite dangerous. It is the angry spirit of someone who was wronged by the Tibetan Govt and vowed revenge in Tibet.

I'm curious - if an angry spirit and not Nechung possesses the Nechung oracle, surely the Dalai Lama would know? Especially as the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig,

Or does this impostor spirit take trance as Nechung in front of others (not high lamas)?

[Helena]

This is such an interesting discussion. It brings up so many possibilities and would mean different things to different people.

I am especially piqued by WB's question - "surely the Dalai Lama would know? Especially as the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig."

I guess, at the end of the day - we just have to ask ourselves if we truly believe that the Enlightened Beings are who they say they are. If we do believe that they are Enlightened Beings, then their apparent "illogical or incomprehensible" actions would mean something much deeper and are done for reasons we simply cannot understand at this point.

What we are seeing now is a "series of plays" between a few "key players". And only they seem to know what they are doing and for what they are working towards.

And if we do believe that they are really Enlightened Beings, then whatever it is they are working towards is and always will be to benefit sentient beings in the ultimate sense.

The play continues....

[DSFriend]

It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to  MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?

Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?

For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!

Time will tell...

[Big Uncle]

It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to  MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?

Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?

For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!

Time will tell...

Haha, I love the way you ended and you make it sound like a movie cliffhanger. Well, ultimately whatever Nechung says cannot do anything to slow and stop the spread of Dorje Shugden. It is all so ironic that it was even Nechung that gave the name Dorje Shugden to the spirit of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and he is saying all these things now. Anyhow, whatever he say now is debatable either way but I am inclined to respect Nechung and even feel grateful for all that he had done to be the one to create the cause for Dorje Shugden to arise. If the prophesy regarding Dorje Shugden to come true, that is tremendous merit!