NKT REGULATIONS?

[Zach]

Thanks for the link, Zach. I found it quite interesting. I didn't know that NKT members were banned from E-Sangha!

I liked the way NKT presented the 'smears' and their 'truths'. Informative for someone like me who has heard/read a lot of criticisms of NKT. This is a good FAQ..

Yes how did you not know ? LOL

Zach - i haven't been to e-sangha for awhile. The site was down at one stage. Why was NKT members banned in e-sangha anyway? For promoting Shugden?

Mainly and for disagreeing with the DL.

[beggar]

Not everyone speaks Undharmically about the DL.
I went protesting with the others my motivation was compassion for those suffering, Of course I would have prefered a symbolic silent protest.

So regardless of which one you choose to believe geshe-la said that if you could not refrain from getting angry you should certainly not go to them because it wasnt about becoming angry with the Dalai lama it was requesting him to listen as he has continually ignored all requests for dialouge.

Zach, I thank you very much for sharing this. I, like Wisdom Being, was saddened to see people protesting against a high lama (Dalai Lama) but I understand your explanation here very well and I do agree that it served a purpose in drawing awareness to the difficulties faced by DS practitioners.

I like what you said here especially:  geshe-la said that if you could not refrain from getting angry you should certainly not go to them because it wasnt about becoming angry with the Dalai lama it was requesting him to listen

It is really beautiful to hear what lamas say about the situation and that what comes out of their mouth is never negative, angry or critical of the dalai lama, but tries to offer a solution and a way to help those who are suffering. I think it is so key what he has said about not attending these protests if we cannot refrain from getting angry - I agree there is already too much anger in this equation and people get quite aggressive, personal and emotional when they speak about the issue, which may sometimes not be necessary or in fact add more negativity to the situation. It's always important to have both good motivation and the sense to check if our actions are actually beneficial or not: compassion AND wisdom!

[Robert Thomas]

Geshe-la also said the protests were actually loving the Dalai Lama, showing him he made a mistake. He said how sad it is that these people of the same family, with the same father Trijang Rinpoche were now divided, so he has tried to solve this. First with private actions and letters, then more publicly, finally with Demos etc. Trying to reach the Dalai Lama and end the divisions. As Geshe-la has said, this situation is so sad.

I personally feel that throughout Geshe-la's actions have been those of a brother who has had to act wrathfully to try to stop his errant sibling from further harming himself and others.

Anyway, that's been my experience!

[thaimonk]

Geshe-la also said the protests were actually loving the Dalai Lama, showing him he made a mistake. He said how sad it is that these people of the same family, with the same father Trijang Rinpoche were now divided, so he has tried to solve this. First with private actions and letters, then more publicly, finally with Demos etc. Trying to reach the Dalai Lama and end the divisions. As Geshe-la has said, this situation is so sad.

I personally feel that throughout Geshe-la's actions have been those of a brother who has had to act wrathfully to try to stop his errant sibling from further harming himself and others.

Anyway, that's been my experience!

I would never have joined the protests. But I fully understand why Geshe Kelsang had them done and I respect his actions. I am sure there were positive results.

Even though I would not have joined, I like the way you write about it. You are in agreemant with the protests and you support, but you don't cram it down other's throats or 'fight' against those who don't agree. You are not rude, crass and sarcastic toward those who do not agree. You are indeed how I would like to read items on this forum.

We are not welcomed on E- sangha because we practice Dorje Shugden so this is a good platform for us. We need it for ourselves and many new people who wish to understand more.

Please keep up your great attitude, as you speak volumes for your teacher and practice.

[LosangKhyentse]

Geshe-la also said the protests were actually loving the Dalai Lama, showing him he made a mistake. He said how sad it is that these people of the same family, with the same father Trijang Rinpoche were now divided, so he has tried to solve this. First with private actions and letters, then more publicly, finally with Demos etc. Trying to reach the Dalai Lama and end the divisions. As Geshe-la has said, this situation is so sad.

I personally feel that throughout Geshe-la's actions have been those of a brother who has had to act wrathfully to try to stop his errant sibling from further harming himself and others.

Anyway, that's been my experience!

I would never have joined the protests. But I fully understand why Geshe Kelsang had them done and I respect his actions. I am sure there were positive results.

Even though I would not have joined, I like the way you write about it. You are in agreemant with the protests and you support, but you don't cram it down other's throats or 'fight' against those who don't agree. You are not rude, crass and sarcastic toward those who do not agree. You are indeed how I would like to read items on this forum.

We are not welcomed on E- sangha because we practice Dorje Shugden so this is a good platform for us. We need it for ourselves and many new people who wish to understand more.

Please keep up your great attitude, as you speak volumes for your teacher and practice.

Both Robert Thomas and Thaimonk nicely said. Good approach.

[WisdomBeing]

Agreed re Thaimonk and Robert's posts. This is what i have been harping on for ages. It's all about the tone of the message. I don't feel any personal animosity from Robert so it's very refreshing.

As Thaimonk said,

You are in agreement with the protests and you support, but you don't cram it down other's throats or 'fight' against those who don't agree. You are not rude, crass and sarcastic toward those who do not agree. You are indeed how I would like to read items on this forum.

Ditto!

[beggar]

I'm really happy to see these recent posts and the very gentle, peaceful way in which they are expressed. I think it is clear by now that all of us here do not agree with the ban or with some of the dalai lama's actions or even what he has said. But there are many ways to express this without being damaging and to maintain respect to the millions who are the dalai lama's disciples around the world.

thank you zach w and Robert Thomas for showing us such moderate and peaceful methods to get across what can be a difficult point.

[Helena]

Geshe-la also said the protests were actually loving the Dalai Lama, showing him he made a mistake. He said how sad it is that these people of the same family, with the same father Trijang Rinpoche were now divided, so he has tried to solve this. First with private actions and letters, then more publicly, finally with Demos etc. Trying to reach the Dalai Lama and end the divisions. As Geshe-la has said, this situation is so sad.

I personally feel that throughout Geshe-la's actions have been those of a brother who has had to act wrathfully to try to stop his errant sibling from further harming himself and others.

Anyway, that's been my experience!

Personally I would not have protested as well, but I can appreciate your views and respect it.

Thank you for sharing in the way that reflects your Guru's teachings, RT.

[thaimonk]

Geshe Kelsang has such a bad reputation because of the protests. This prevents him from spreading the dharma much further. It makes him look political. His motivation is good, but the method did more damage than good. The Dalai Lama did not lift the ban, but many 'banned' Geshe Kelsang unfortunately.

[Lineageholder]

Geshe Kelsang has such a bad reputation because of the protests. This prevents him from spreading the dharma much further. It makes him look political. His motivation is good, but the method did more damage than good. The Dalai Lama did not lift the ban, but many 'banned' Geshe Kelsang unfortunately.

This is incorrect because the Dalai Lama has no power to control Geshe Kelsang or the NKT and Geshe Kelsang is still a very highly respected Teacher among the wise.  The Dalai Lama is unable to ban anything outside of Tibetan society. 

It is true that the Dalai Lama is trying to prevent the spreading of Kadam Dharma by trying to have all Shugden practitioners regarded as demon worshippers, but those who read 'A Great Deception' and realise its real meaning will understand the truth.  This is one reason why that book is so important because it clearly shows that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha and that the Dalai Lama's ban is part of a power game (including the Karmapa controversy) that is an attempt to position himself as the supreme political and religious head of Tibetan Buddhism.  When people understand the truth, they won't buy into the ban. The main problem at the moment is that people have blind faith in the Dalai Lama without checking his reasons and intentions for instituting the ban.  Therefore, the only purpose of 'A Great Deception' is to help people to develop wisdom that will prevent doubts, confusion, wrong views and sectarianism.

In the end, truth will win.

[gohdi]

As long as the protests happened in 2008 and still a few months laters the Dalai Lama issue was present on TV, radio, newspapers and in the internet. Since then, it is very calme. This clearly proves that demonstrations did their job very well.

[WisdomBeing]

As long as the protests happened in 2008 and still a few months laters the Dalai Lama issue was present on TV, radio, newspapers and in the internet. Since then, it is very calme. This clearly proves that demonstrations did their job very well.

just curious - since the ban is still on, why did the protests stop? was there a directive to stop?

[thaimonk]

That is a very good question:

Why did the protests stop? It did have effects. Why doesn't it continue? Too much negative backlash for NKT and Geshe Kelsang? The negative backlash was much more than the benefits? Will it continue again?

[Atishas cook]

i think - and i, truly, can't claim to speak for NKT or WSS so this is just my understanding - that the demos were a response, a countermeasure to oppose the renewed pressure that the TGIE applied in 2007/8 through the ID cards, signature campaigns, and so on.  they had good results, certainly; but they were a very wrathful action and, clearly, upset a great many people.  i think it was felt that the point had been made but to continue to demonstrate might not, at the time, serve any further beneficial purpose. 

now, it seems, is the time for a more peaceful approach, to encourage more people to find out about the ban - by reading A Great Deception, for example.  even this is strong medicine!  but a powerful sickness requires strong measures.  i think we can expect the approach to be somewhat more measured now, though.

karma changes and no one but the Enlightened beings can say what will be appropriate in the future, however.  i think the WSS response will always be defensive, in reaction to the Dalai Lama's actions, however, rather than offensive.  he stops the ban, the WSS disappears!  he attacks, the WSS defends.

[Helena]

A good observation, AC!

Karma does change as much as people do evolve.

Hence, different measures for different times.

This applies to everything - not just NKT but everything and everyone else.

Though not many people may understand or accept these different approaches - especially the radical, wrathful or painful ones, but just because some of us may not understand or accept, it doesn't mean that there are no real benefits which will arise in due course and time.

The same could be said about the HHDL's ban. Some can take this view, and some don't.

Either way - the best is how to not further create bad karma for ourselves and be more considerate of other people's minds. Some may require peaceful methods and only respond to peaceful methods. Some can tolerate or accept wrathful and radical methods, where as others will just shun from them.

This is why I appreciate this website so much. It gives me enough info to think for myself. It does not shove it down my throat and it does not encourage or persuade me to disparage others.

I like that and appreciate that a great deal.