UPDATE: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion

The representation of Scholars and knowledgeable people who practice Dorje Shugden is missing in this welcomed meeting. In order for the discussion to be fair and fruitful, they should have invited more from the Dorje Shugden side.

Will this panel discussion be live? A broadcast online would be a good learning for all parties involved. The Dorje Shudgen issue is not just affecting NKT and to have an ex NKT person well I think the framework for this discussion would have narrowed tremendously.

Dorje Shugden is not an issue about NKT, there is a bigger issue at hand about CTA’s irreconcilable activities of denying rights to its own people, and their stance affects other Dorje Shugden people around the world. The bigger spiritual issue stems from the intervention of the Dalai Lama in the Karmapa and Dorje Shugden issue , the traditional Tibetan buddhist elements are all in danger of losing its identity and authenticity. Just having an ex NKT is oversimplifying it in my opinion.

Dorje Shugden practice is not practiced by a small minority as the ex Tibetan Govt (CTA) would mistakenly like to have you believe in order to ‘minimize’ their damage. But it is practiced by the majority and growing. You can see in this that 200,000 Dorje Shugden practitioners have attended one event recently: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/denma-gonsa-rinpoches-enthronement/ This number exceeds the number of Tibetans in exile out of Tibet.

Thank you Dr. Nathan Hill. This is a good move in the right direction. We hope you will have more dialogue and invite more Dorje Shugden scholars in the future.

I hope Dr Hill is not prejudiced towards the Dalai Lama therefore not inviting more speakers from the Pro-Shugden people for equal representation in this dialogue which is welcomed.

Yes I too would much rather have a broader panel of interested parties.I fear an unbalanced public debate will do further harm to Buddhism in general and hope this does not degenerate into an NKT bashing session.The issue affects many practitioners other than NKT,in India,Tibet and elsewhere
I thank DorjeShugden.com for their foresight in suggesting that the balance of speakers doesnot appear contrived for fairness.

Personally for me, a panel discussion on this subject matter is long over due. The plight and fatal consequences of this controversy has been going on for too long. It is obvious that the public non-violent protests do not move the CTA to lift the ban. Therefore such a panel discussion of esteemed speakers to represent the issue is indeed with merit. And I strongly believe each speaker will present their views and facts strongly for a very fruitful and purposeful discussion. I hope that many will attend and knowledge be spread and the Ban be lifted. I rejoice!

Dr. Hill should be reading this before moderating the discussion:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/how-the-dalai-lama-is-destroying-a-religion-lie-by-lie/

http://www.livestream.com/Tibetan

A public discussion on DS controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama.. this should be interesting, with each speakers’ opinions on this matter, the audience can have more understanding over this matter. However, as there’s not much balance between those for and against the practice of Dorje Shugden in the invited speakers, and looking at Dr Hill’s reply, they are not interested in presenting the matter as ‘pro’ and ‘con’ per se and hence does not see a need in the balance of the speakers. Nonetheless, having public discussion on this matter, hopefully will bring positive influence towards the audience and the ban to be lifted eventually.

It may not be the most most ideal of situation, but still a giant step in letting the whole world there is an unfair group of people being discriminated and allegations against Wisdom buddha Dorje Shugden.

I am watching it RIGHT NOW, thank you dorjeshugden.com for bringing this to our attention.

We will prevail with efforts and determination.

Dear Dr. Nathan Hill,

I am pleased to see a open panel on the discussion of the Shugden issue. Personally, there should be no Shugden issue. In the UK everyone has total freedom to practice whatever religion or worship they choose. The Dalai Lama would never get away with what he saying if he was a British politician for sure.

Each of the guests spoke very well except Ms. Carol McQuire. I think she was inappropriate as a guest and her speech had nothing to do with the issue. She focused only on her supposed ‘sufferings’ within the NKT and as a so called NKT survivor. She looked like she was acting out of a personal vendetta. If you were to have Ms. McQuire presen which you did, then you should have had another person who is a survivor of the Shugden persecution in India and then it would have been more balanced. If you go to her facebook page, you can easily see the way she speaks and interacts with the very few people that actually ‘speak’ with her, it is just ramblings that does not make much sense. You sense much hate from her posts where she just engages in random insults of people she has never met nor know anything of. She allows for random insults and entertains them. She entertains different types of unproven and unsupported theories about this issue and the people behind it.

She was really the wrong person to have joined your panel. Otherwise everyone else spoke well whether they were pro or against the dharma Protector Dorje Shugden. It was overall a pleasant discussion.

Thank you for it. May you have more with more varied speakers in the future and perhaps more time.

Nice to see the SOAS talk available in full here. Thank you. Carol McQuire is really off and obsessed with NKT (strange) and Dodin is totally strange in that who is he to say anything about Shugden. Other speaker both pro and anti Shugden are good.

I agree with Venerable Lady. I was present at the discussion and felt sorry for Carol. She’s suffering as much as those who are discriminated against by the False Dalai Lama and I think we should be compassionate to everyone, especially those who disagree with us. I pray that everyone affected by this terrible schism on both sides will become free from their suffering.

I’d like to encourage everyone to refer to the ‘Dalai Lama controversy’ from now on, it frames the situation more accurately.

I appreciate deeply for this panel discussion organised by Dr Nathan Hill of SOAS, University of London. THANK YOU DR NATHAN HILL!

Jigme: There’s plenty wrong with implying that someone is “ill and needs help” It’s one of the nkt’s favorite ways of dismissing people, or smearing them. I’ve seen it and heard it happen to many people who don’t agree with the nkt. Also, I do agree with one of the comments above that there is a larger issue other than the nkt. That’s the fact that people are still being killed and imprisoned in China, yet the nkt spews the PRC propaganda! Amazing. Yet all the nkt does is cluck their tongues, says “too bad” and goes right on with their vitriol. It was the nkt that started these demonstrations, and continues them today.

I think it’s nice that a couple stood up for Carol. That shows some maturity. However, it seems to me there’s pride in that kind of compassion, where we feel sorry for someone for having an apparently inferior view to our own.

It is a common and learnt tendency in the NKT to regard those that oppose the organisation as being deluded, as no sane person could possibly have a negative view on the NKT, right?! I’m being sarcastic, of course.

I don’t necessarily blame individual practitioners for this attitude, as NKT members learn this way of thinking from their peers, and teachers. I know, because I once learnt it myself.

I have no doubt I am also seen as deluded, as an ex-member, and an object of misguided compassion. All beings deserve our compassion, but when we mix pride in like this, then this is not genuine compassion, as we are still putting ourselves and our own views above those to which we feel “compassion” for. Genuine compassion necessarily has a real humility at its base. Furthermore, for a Buddhist, if our compassion is not accompanied by genuine understanding, then we are like a one-winged bird, flying in a circle and getting nowhere.

As the Buddha taught, faith in the words of the teacher or the words of a book is not enough. You must see for yourself. In this case, you must check your facts, not just accept as facts the statements that are handed to you by your teachers. As Geshe Kelsang has often said, you should be your own spiritual guide. As Buddha has said, you should be self-reliant. You should not just be like a mindless Dharma-robot, use your own wisdom, build the muscle of your mind for yourself, check your facts and do your research.

I am reading through the NKT book, ‘A Great Deception’, and I am only at page 9, and already there are important statements that cannot be verified. I tried to check your facts, but even the NKT who are protesting haven’t checked these facts and do not know where to find the documents to which the book references. I know this, as I asked them directly and they told me this very clearly. What are we to make of this?

Why are you NKT so afraid to question your faith? If your faith is true, then questioning it can only bring about a deeper understanding of that truth. The only way your faith can be destroyed through reasonable questioning is if your faith is misguided. If something is true, it stands up to questioning. If something is false, it falls apart under analysis.

So please do not be afraid to contemplate the points I am making here, and the points that others made in the discussion in the video above. After all, what is more important to you, maintaining your unquestioned view or maintaining the truth? As Buddhists, we should seek to know and understand the truth, whatever that truth may turn out to be.

Please, just stop for a moment, and reflect on this.

Saying “she’s mad” is just a defensive mechanism. The NKT are grasping at straws. They HAVE TO believe she’s mad, because if they don’t, then they have to look inwards at the whole basis of their belief system, and most just cannot countenance that. If they believed she is sane and has a valid point then the entire mental construct of their world will crumble. They cannot face this truth. They are utterly deluded. It would be like an earthquake for them to realise that the whole basis of their practice is anti-dharmic. Their practice fosters only their ego selves as special, pure, powerful and right. Carol is standing there with a pin about to burst the balloon of their out-of-control egos, which they hide under a thin veil of holy sanctimonious self-righteousness.

Carol is right – this Shugden practice only fosters powerful ego-mind, attachment and self-grasping. They get off on a sense of bliss and power fron their practice and confuse this with real spiritual progress – thus they get to a certain level and can’t go any further. When you join the NKT you feel like you must have just got inside a Cadillac in the first lane to englightenment. But it turns out that really it’s just a clapped out old banger going downhill fast and the brakes won’t work. Car crash ahead. I feel sorry for them. Really. I do. Especially Pagpa.

The Tibetan monk was so hypocrite. He said he represents himself only but all he said was exactly as CTA and Dalai Lama.
Also he was so mad toward Kelsang. Is he a monk???? I doubt. he is full of hatred. He looks like a wolf in a sheep cloth.

First off can we all stop using Carol and her perceived state of health as some sort of shuttlecock in this discussion? It’s not relevant to this issue and just not nice. This debate is already full of ad hominem arguments it does not need any more.

As a follower of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and partitioner of Buddha Dorje Shugden I was asked to demonstrate against the Dalai Lama, before I did so I did some research and came to the conclusion that it was right for me to do so – I haven’t been able to get to any demonstrations yet but will more than happily attend when I can. Of course there are arguments against me doing this or that say I don’t need to – I follow those as well. Personally, to adopt a phrase of a friend, I would love to be proved wrong by the supporters of the Dalai Lama’s position. I would loved to be proved alarmist and that the tibetan refugee community is a shangri-la of happy practitioners of Buddhadharma but ad hominem attacks won’t do that for me. And as for suggestions that I am a tool of the Chinese government that isn’t going to work either because I know I am not.

In regards to the “this is all rubbish” comment made by Dr Martin Mills, I think it was unfortunate that he regarded the ISC protests to be equally as problematic as the CTA’s posting of protesters names on its website. It is a democratic right to protest whereas posting protesters’ names is an act of intimidation. There is quite a difference. Furthermore, if a minority group is suffering from oppression and there is no dialogue, what other option does a group have to seek redress but through this method? As Dr Nathan Hill said in closing, “the suffering some propitiants of Dorje Shugden have experienced is self-evident.” If people do not speak up discrimination simply continues. Prayer and action go together.

Kelsang Palmo,

There is complete logic in what you said. Peaceful protests are the right of every citizen in any democracy. But posting of protestors by the CTA on their website is purposely inciting trouble against them. That is should be illegal and unethical.

But why do you think CTA do not post any non-Tibetan protestors photos and only Tibetans on their official website?

Fake Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is dead. May he never be born again as a human. May he burn in hell in the hot boiling water.

Dr R – in your post we see a perfect demonstration of the usual ISC/NKT tactic of taking something completely out of context to make a non-existent point. Carol posted that image in a discussion about how images and statements are taken and manipulated by unethical and unscrupulous people to give a semblance of supposed “evidence” for their totally false claims. This is standard practice by the Shugden/NKT propagandist manipulators.

The picture you have posted was next to the one below, which says “Just because you saw it on the internet doesn’t mean it’s true”. Dr R, you have posted a shockingly deceptive comment. Shame on you.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154550049885145&set=pcb.572908446153972&type=1&theater