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From: DS Admin
Date: Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 4:09 AM
Subject: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
To: [email protected]
Dear Dr. Hill,
It has come to our attention that SOAS will soon be hosting a panel discussion on the topic of “The Shugden Controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama”. I represent the administrators of the website DorjeShugden.com in thanking you for encouraging dialogue and discussion about this very relevant topic that continues to make headlines in Tibetan Buddhist publications everywhere.
DorjeShugden.com was established in 2007 to educate the general public on issues surrounding the deity Dorje Shugden, based on history, scriptural references and on-going developments, some of which were previously only available in the Tibetan language. We are one of the key online reference points for all things Dorje Shugden, and we believe in promoting logical discussion and debate on this topic.
As an educator and one steeped in the rich cultural history of Tibet, I am sure you will agree that the spirit of education and research is not to take things at face value, but to delve deeper and investigate to the core of any matter, religious or otherwise, especially in an institution as highly respected as the University of London.
It is on this basis that I am writing to you with some suggestions for the upcoming event. Based on the information currently available on the SOAS website, the participating speakers do not appear to represent a balance between those for and against the practice of Dorje Shugden. Apart from Kelsang Rabten, a monk from both the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the International Shugden Community, the majority of the other speakers, although they come from diverse backgrounds such as Tibetologist Thierry Dodin and former NKT member Carol McQuire, are squarely against the Dorje Shugden practice.
Thus, in the spirit of impartiality and thorough research which SOAS and the University of London are known for, I would like to bring your attention to a number of other highly respected scholars and subject matter experts who I believe will add great value to your event and aid your audience in developing a deeper appreciation of this issue within the context of Tibetan Studies.
1) Geshe Helmut Gassner (Venerable Jampa Lungtog): ‘Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden’, 1999 Western monk and scholar who served as the Dalai Lama’s translator from 1975 – 1995.
2) The 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Reincarnated lama, scholar and vocal Dorje Shugden proponent. He is also the Abbot and Founder of Atisha Charitable Trust in India.
3) Geshe Chime Tsering Former Secretary of the Dorje Shugden Devotees’ Charitable and Religious Society, resident teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute, and translator for Trijang Rinpoche.
4) Geshe Konchok Gyaltsen Former Vice-President of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, India
5) Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr: ‘Two Sides of the Same God’, 1998 A professor of Buddhism at the University of Michigan. His published works include ‘Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism in the West’ and ‘Religions of Tibet in Practice’.
6) Geshe Lobsang Sopa Resident Teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute I hope you will consider adding some of these speakers to the panel discussion and once again, I would like to express my gratitude for your efforts in promoting dialogue and discussion on the Dorje Shugden controversy.
Sincerely,
Kay Beswick
DorjeShugden.com
Please join us on our busy forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php) for discussions on Dorje Shugden and General Buddhism
For prayers to Dorje Shugden, please see http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/prayers/daily-prayers/
Dr Nathan W. Hill’s reply
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:20:54 +0100
Subject: Re: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Dear Ms. Beswick,
Thank you for your message. Although having a diversity of views represented at this event is a very important goal, we are also not interested in presenting the matter as ‘pro’ and ‘con’ per se. Consequently, I don’t think there is a need for a strict balance in the number of speakers on both sides. Nonetheless, I also shared the perception that the perspective of Shugden supporters was underrepresented and we have already sent another invitation to a speaker recommended by Kelsang Rabten.
I am very grateful for the list of potential speakers you have provided. Unfortunately, we do not have funds to invite speakers from abroad and now only have a few days before the event is scheduled. Further speakers cannot be incorporated at this point. If in the future your organization would like to sponsor an event at SOAS (in particular to sponsor a lecture by Prof Donald S. Lopez), we would be most grateful for such support.
very best regards,
Nathan
Dr Nathan W. Hill
Lecturer in Tibetan and Linguistics
Department of China & Inner Asia and Department of Linguistics
SOAS, University of London
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square,
London WC1H 0XG, UK
Tel: +44 (0)20 7898 4220
–
Profile — http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff46254.php
Tibetan Studies at SOAS — http://www.soas.ac.uk/cia/tibetanstudies/
Video: CLEAR VIDEO! The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS
Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)
Video: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS
Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)
The panel discussion on the practice of Dorje Shugden was held successfully at SOAS as advertised. Above is a video capture of the live stream, sent to DorjeShugden.com by someone appreciative of this monumental event. We would like to thank Dr. Nathan Hill for organizing this panel discussion. It probably took a lot of time, energy and careful consideration to coordinate such an event, the first of its kind ever since the first mention of the ban on Dorje Shugden in 1980. No matter which side you take on the issue, the fact that this discussion was held bodes well for the issue of Dorje Shugden’s practice being resolved in the future. This is sure to be the first of many such serious discussions in academic institutions, providing a needed unbiased platform for dialogue. Please note that the audio on the file we received is not that great, most likely since it was captured from a live stream. Disclaimer: We do not own the copyrights to this video and do not share it here for commercial profit. We are simply sharing this for informational purposes as requested by an avid reader.
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karma
August 17, 2014
Linda Ciardiello,
You are deceiving people. That was not real Carlos’s Facebook. The real one was Dr R’s link. People please check it and confirm the link.
Linda, why were you doing that? What is your intention? I am not a Shugden follower but I think they are the victims here.
Why are you trying to make the matter worse? Please think and behave.
karma
August 17, 2014
Thanks for your response Kelsang Jigmela
I found out about this Mad monk. He is a spiritual teacher of Jamyang Buddhist Centre in UK. This is very scary. How can he be?? His heart is full of hatred.
check the link below
http://www.jamyang.co.uk/index.php/contact
If you know anybody lives around that Buddhist centre or attend there, please inform them, otherwise, this fake monk, Geshe Tashi Tsering, will mislead people into hatred and destruction.
Linda Ciardiello
August 17, 2014
….and this is the original posting of the photo, showing the context Carol put on it when first posted to our facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/talkaboutshugden/permalink/572452496199567/
Linda Ciardiello
August 17, 2014
…and here is a quote from Carol copied directly from the discussion:
August 7 at 11:43am · Like · 1
Carol McQuire: We have to be very thoughtful and careful in this process and just simply deleting something isn’t necessarily the way forwards I think. I think it’s important to see that there are people stirring things up in very horrible ways and it’s really important not to jump to conclusions and blame someone who may not be involved in the Shugden issue at all really, or who, on the other hand, may be seriously involved but creating another hall of mirrors for people to get lost in and blame, blame, blame. Just my point. I think this is a great ‘warning’ meme but we need to make into just that – re-done…
You see Dr R. and Karma – I am not deceiving anyone. I am telling the truth. But perhaps the deep thinking of which Carol Mcquire is capable is not something you have the intellect to comprehend. For you the world is just black and white. You have no concept of subtlety and complexity in thought processes and analyses. With your simple-mindedness, it’s no wonder that you are so brainwashed by this cult of Shugden and its chief proponents – Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT.
Robert Helms
August 17, 2014
I too remember when Carol originally posted both of those images together, it is absurd how Dr. R has taken one of those images out of context. Was this an honest mistake, Dr. R, or a deliberate attempt to misrepresent and damage Carol’s reputation? I hope for your own sake, it is the former reason.
Karma
August 17, 2014
Linda,
First of all,
Why did you call Shugden cult? I am not a follower of Shugden. But when you call anyone or any religion a cult, that is offensive. That shows your character. And I can easily associate that “picture” with you.
Second of all, when you say ” i am not deceiving anyone.” You remind me a video clip of Dalai Lama saying ” I harming nobody, that is rumor.” Although, the interviewer said ” I saw it with my own eyes. You are being so denial of the fact.
Linda Ciardiello
August 17, 2014
Really, Karma and Dr R do you know no shame in your continued attempts to deceive people about Carol’s intentions with posting that photo?
Please check your facts first before jumping to conclusions – which you draw with a very clear biased perception, which reveals you have no real interest in facts that do not fit with your propagandist manipulative agenda:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/talkaboutshugden/permalink/572908446153972/
And Karma – on what grounds do you presume to denounce Geshe Tashi as a “false” Geshe. From his own account, the only person falsely claiming geshe status is Kelsang Gyatso – he admitted that he never sat his final exams so how can he call himself a geshe? If I didn’t sit and pass my degree finals, I couldn’t call myself a BSc!
Robert Helms
August 17, 2014
Karma – A group is regarded as a cult if it “imposes excessive control over members”, according to the Oxford dictionary. Linda, like so many ex-NKT members, clearly see this attribute within the NKT. So Linda is using correct English and stating the realtiy as she sees it, and she is far from alone in her observation, so it is foolish to say that this “shows her character”.
Linda Ciardiello
August 17, 2014
Karma, were you not able to see with your “own eyes” the links I posted here, clearly showing the context in which Carol posted that photo? Who is in denial? LOOK! The facts are staring you in the face. Call me a liar, call me offensive – I don’t actually care. This is not about me. It is about the facts.
Karma, for your information, the dictionary definition of cult is exactly correct for Dorje Shugden “practioners”:
cult
kʌlt/
noun
noun: cult; plural noun: cults
1.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
Dorje Shugden “Practice” IS the religious veneration and devotion towards a particular figure ie Dorje Shugden.
That you deny it is a cult is because it is YOU WHO IS IN DENIAL.
Anonymous
August 17, 2014
Karma, your argument tactics are so base and weak you simply resort to calling my character into question, just because you don’t like what I say and can’t think of a valid reply. It’s just like you did with Carol first, which drew me to comment here. Also like you are trying to do to Geshe Tashi. Also as you have done to the Dalai Lama. The ISC/NKT strategy is always thus: Don’t like what someone says about us? Lets drag their name into the mud! I think one of your gang used a phrase like “belittle, attack and humiliate in any way we can” to “destroy the power” of their speech. Disgusting. You speak like the worst type of politician or gutter press journalist.
The Bogiecattva
August 17, 2014
Carol McQuire – I found your talk extremely helpful clear and in line with my own experience within the NKT. It is really enlightening to me to hear someone so eloquent speak aloud what I have been struggling with for years. I think it is obvious, who in these replies, is from the NKT and I am extremely unsurprised at the attempts to harm you further with really rude and irrelevant attacks. You would have thought you were the only victim of this cult.
INFORM have made it very clear that this particular strain of ‘Buddhism’ is doubtful and harmful.
After all It is very ‘cult like’ behaviour to react with such anger and vitriol towards someone who has found your particular group harmful and who then chooses to speak out about it in my opinion. If you are happy in your religion/group why attack someone who stands alone???
At the end of the day any attacks towards Carol only go to strengthen her point especially in this ‘academic’ environment. I thank all you angry people for that. You have shown clearly what being ‘outside’ of the NKT is really like. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyioONrBQPXSf832XN6iiUw
Kelsang Palmo
August 17, 2014
I find it most unfortunate that people will hijack a debate for their own self-centred purposes. If people have issues with the NKT, then Dorje Shugden websites, forums, panel discussions and so on are not the place for airing those grievances. It shows a lack of respect, kindness and compassion to people who are suffering under the ban. I would encourage such people to try to think beyond themselves and try to have compassion for those who are experiencing discrimination in the Tibetan communities in exile where families are being split and so on.
The Bogiecattva
August 17, 2014
What I am finding it interesting that people see practices as unrelated to peoples behaviours and actions. Speaking your truth and experience of something is not necessarily airing a grievance? Carol in no way appeared bitter or upset or angry. I wonder why can’t people look beyond their ’cause’ and have compassion for all the people affected by this Shugden controversy not just the Tibetans? This talk was on the Shugdan Controversy. The controversy is much much wider than people are made aware of.
KT
August 17, 2014
Carol McQuire, I cannot see your mental state but one thing for sure, you spoke about your negative experiences at NKT at the wrong place at the SOAS. If Nathan Hill invited you and he knew you were going to speak about this, then he is biased against Shugden practice. He is using NKT to make the Shugden practice look bad. Shugden’s issue is way beyond NKT. This makes the whole discussion at SOAS very biased.
I cannot agree or disagree with your experiences in NKT, but in every organization you have people with disgruntled feelings or feel they have been wronged. Take it up with the law for your damages and for your mind, go see a therapist. Get healed and get well but stop talking about your pain online, on social media and at every opportunity you get. It starting to look like your begging for attention. Go get help.
Robert Helms
August 17, 2014
Kelsang Palmo – It was in fact NKT practitioners in these comments that called Carol’s credibility into question, and those who mentioned the well-known short-comings of the NKT did so merely to oppose the ignorant statements made about Carol’s character, and explain where they are coming from. With that in mind, the “issues” concerning the NKT were very relevant to this discussion, as understanding of these issues shines a light on the ignorant and nonsensical criticism against Carol.
Jocelyn Bright
August 17, 2014
Robert Helms and Kelsang Palmo,
Carol McQuire thinks she has been wronged by NKT after 12 years. She has every right to feel that. I agree with KT that she should go seek professional help and stop airing it all over the public and internet. It just sounds like she is in need of so much attention. We all have divorces, separations, grievances with our ex employers, but go get help. No one is listening to her as it’ the wrong way to do it and it makes her look very bad.
Robert Helms
August 17, 2014
KT – The NKT may not like it, but the fact is that they are the ones making the most noise about the Shugden controversy, so it is impossible to remove them from the discussion, and to avoid examining their credibility, for those of us who wish to gain more than a superficial understanding of this Shugden controversy.
Carol was certainly not voicing her understanding of the NKT in the wrong place! As the NKT are the ones making the most outrageous claims, it is vital to gain understanding of those making the outrageous claims. This is very relevant.
Your ignorant statements about Carol’s health are not helping your cause at all, and they are just making you look childish and immature.
Robert Helms
August 17, 2014
Jocelyn Bright – There are many listening to Carol, and she shares her understanding out of genuine concern. Please do not make such presumptions on someone else’s mental health. You may wish to refer to Atisha’s ‘Advice’:
Do not look for faults in others,
but look for faults in yourself
and purge them like bad blood.
Linda Ciardiello
August 17, 2014
The issues Carol addressed in her speech were nothing to do with any “personal grievances”. She was talking analytical about the way in which Shugden practice distorts spiritual aspiration into ego aggrandization of its practitioners. Carol was not complaining about being “wronged” by the NKT. She was addressing the core warping of spirituality that Shugden practice generates, whereby practitioners exhibit a form of mental illness called Tranpersonal Identity Disorder. To quote Assagioli on this phenomena we see in the NKT/Shugden practice:
“The fatal error of all who fall victim to these illusions is to attribute to their personal ego or ‘self’ the qualities and powers of the ‘Self’.” In NKT/Shugden followers we clearly see the confusion between metaphysical and empirical levels of reality. This is why they hold the view that “If I perceive Shugden (or my “teacher”) as a Buddha, then for me he is a Buddha and so I will get the blessings of a Buddha”. Yet we all know that if I perceive my toaster as a Buddha I will not receive the blessings of a Buddha from it. It is clear they have got absolute and relative truth totally mixed up.
Shugden practice has indeed made you crazy. Please, get psychiatric help and stop making such a painful exhibition of yourselves and your mental illness with these totally exaggerated and outright fabricated claims of “persecution” . If this persecution actually existed why couldn’t Amesty International or the High Court of Delhi find anything of any substance to your insane claims? Perhaps they recognise your screaming and shouting for what it is? The Rage of the Wounded Narcissist. Please, all of you, go get psychiatric help now!
karma
August 17, 2014
If that is your definition of cult, then all the Tibetan Buddhists practices are cults.
Didn’t you hear the host explaining that?????
Please watch the clip again.
Robert Helms
August 17, 2014
karma – You were the one who criticized her for using the word “cult”, so you are undermining your own argument.
Kelsang Palmo
August 17, 2014
Linda: Again, point 4 of the summary of Dr Nathan Hill: “The suffering that some propitiants of Dorje Shugden have experienced is self-evident.” Instead of resorting to name calling, maybe you could watch the personal accounts on Tibetan Public Talk such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmn6HYkDsgM or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78o-1s9hDos to see some of the suffering for yourself and maybe develop some empathy.
Steve Lee
August 18, 2014
I am very happy to see this panel discussion. It is really the first of its kind as far as I know. However, some of the speakers were biased and were targeting NKT like Carol McQuire. I think that’s silly and I would like to point to the fact that NKT do not represent all Shugden practitioners. Other Shugden lamas, organizations and people are not represented in this panel discussion. Therefore, no sound conclusion can be drawn from this discussion. But I must say that it is groundbreaking and I hope more of such discussions and dialogue do take place and with better representation from both sides.
Michael Winder
August 18, 2014
If Carol had any grievances with NKT, the SOAS panel was the wrong place to vent her frustrations. She’s not a Shugden expert and therefore should not have been invited to speak, plain and simple since the panel was about SHUGDEN and not someone’s position as an NKT “survivor”. Just because someone is an ex-NKT member does not qualify them to speak on the topic of Dorje Shugden.
So SOAS could’ve done a better job of picking out the speakers. It wasn’t a balanced representation of the Shugden issue since NKT members do not represent all Dorje Shugden practitioners. What happened to people from Gonsar Rinpoche’s centre in Switzerland? Gangchen Rinpoche’s students in Italy? I’m sure many of them would’ve been happy to pay for their own way to the panel to speak and RyanAir and EasyJet have frequent cheap flights. “Not enough time” was a poor excuse.
Whilst I appreciate Dr Hill’s bravery in hosting this panel, knowing how much flack he would get from all quarters, it turned into an NKT versus everyone else debate (which I’m sure was not Dr Hill’s intention, but that’s what it became). I hope this panel becomes an opportunity for all involved to learn how to host a more productive one that’ll generate more open dialogue in the future. Next time, let’s leave the character assassinations at home.
Jason Hall
August 18, 2014
I am disturbed by the fact that Geshe Tashi Tsering supports the ban on Shugden while he himself belongs to at Jamyang center that was started by a Shugden practitioner. FPMT was started by Lama Yeshe, renowned to be a Shugden practitioner (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-received-dorje-shugden-initiaiton-from-trijang-rinpoche/ and http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-dorje-shugden-statue-that-was-in-kopan-monastery-nepal/ ). At this center, he shares the teachings and lineages like the lamrim and a great many of the Gelug higher tantric sadhanas were composed by Pabongka Rinpoche. By dialectical debate, the basis of the Shugden ban can easily be refuted. What authentic Geshe would actively support the ban when we know it does not make logical sense especially since it goes against lineage and lama.
Jared Schmidt
August 18, 2014
Should we be concentrating on the fact that SOAS held such a landmark discussion panel on the topic of Dorje Shugden? That is the most important point here as it gives hope that both sides can actually sit down at a table and talk about things in a rational manner. But alas the continuity of the irrational actions and words seems to have resurfaced here, with the “you’re screwed up” malarkey from Linda and Robert here on these comments.
Oh and Linda, the whole idea of Transpersonal Identity Disorder is flawed to the limit, when discussing this on a website from a Tibetan Buddhist background. That just goes to show how little you studied about tantric practice, which incidentally is practiced by BOTH sides of the ban. I think, rather than accusing others you should do your own homework and understanding the context of Dorje Shugden is practiced. Because in that one statement you’ve just labeled all of Vajrayana Buddhism as having a mental disorder.And that just doesn’t make any sense.
Elizabeth Hardwick
August 18, 2014
It’s amazing, when you go to WEE NEED TO TALK ABOUT SHUGDEN facebook page:
1. It’s just a few persons talking back and forth. They all repeat the same thing. My friends found that very negative. They all hate NKT and that is it. We must go beyond that already. I am sure Carol McQuire has suffered as she perceived and I respect that. But I would highly recommend her to get professional help if that is the case. I don’t mean disrespect to her in anyway by suggesting this. Creating a survivors page will not go far at all. Carol is clearly suffering from her experiences in NKT as you can see she is always repeating her verbalizations on her page about her experiences. It seems like hatred. Those who support her should not encourage this behavior but help her to get help. Peace to her.
2. There is a Sera Mey monk Siling Tongkhor from Rongpo khamtsen that visits that page and comments often and Carol and supporters must becareful of him. Why is this monk so free to just comment and write. His comments are negative and derogatory which is un-monkish behavior in itself. I was sponsoring a few monks from Sera Je and still sponsoring one and they said he is not a pure monk. That he has broken his vows several times by having improper relations with a few other young monks. Yes, improper relations. The monks call that literally as translated ‘monk’s way’. Yes it is improper behavior of the worst kind.
Secondly, he makes friends with Westerners and uses the “I hate Shugden” stance to win them over to show how exceptional, righteous and pure he is in order to get money and sponsorship. His sole intention is money and sponsorship. He enjoys computer, electronics, cameras (his favorite), watches also videos. He enjoys Indian movies very much. He does not engage in meditations, contemplations at all. If he did, he would not be online as often. He portrays himself as very pro- Dalai Lama in order to be in the right ‘catetorgory’ of groups, but his main purpose is to get money. He is well known for giving money to the young monks he bribes to have improper activities with. He has been reported but it’s hush hush I was told. Siling Tongkhor wishes to defame and say negatives about others, he should expect the same. I have written to the abbot of Sera Mey Monastery last year and received no reply understandably as they like to keep this quiet. Similar to the Vatican.
Yes, there is a dark side of the Tibetan monasteries. One young monk was brutalized in this fashion and left Sera Mey monastery and has since arrived in New York City disrobed.
I am all out for not practicing Dhogyal and letting people know the ill effects of this worship, but just because a monk or Tibetan or individual is on the side against Dhogyal does not mean they are pure or above the law either. It does not mean they can be trusted for believed.
Becareful of Siling Tongkhor of Sera Mey Rongpo Khamtsen as he should be expelled for his dubious behavior. He is suppose to be a Tulku or a Rinpoche? Is this how a Rinpoche speaks and acts? Aren’t Tibetan Rinpoches suppose to be kind, forgiving and very loving? Is he a Rinpoche?
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
Elizabeth Hardwick – I don’t know who you are, but these kind of comments are disgusting. I have been of the opinion that the NKT are misguided, but this is a whole new low, and it is sickening. I know Siling well, and I have heard how revered he is by other monks that know him. I know without doubt that your accounts are fabricated nonsense in the worst possible taste. By speaking in this way, you bring shame to yourself and ruin the reputation of other NKT practitioners. You really should have checked your mind before you posted.
Elizabeth Hardwick
August 18, 2014
Robert Helms-
I am not from NKT and would never go. I have never been to NKT and I will never join them. So let’s get that straight. I do not belong to any centre besides attending some talks by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Secondly, I have letters from the Sera Jey monks regarding this issue against Siling Tongkhor. I will be writing another letter to the Abbot of Sera Mey Monastery to pursue this issue. This issue will not die down.
Siling Tongkhor has the free time to say all types of negatives against others. Is this proper for a person holding the vinaya vows? Is this proper for a monk? Is this proper for someone with a Tulku’s title? Does he represent his monastery or Rongpo well you tell me.
Read all the negatives he has written on WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT SHUGDEN fb page? There is no compassion. No kindness. No dharma teachings. His posts disturb me as he is a monk. He should be in meditation, retreats, pilgrimages, prayers, teachings and not be on FB all the time. Look at his profile picture with him showing off how adept he is with the camera. Does that look proper? No it does not. You say I bring ruin to myself? How is that? I am not a monk, nor a Tulku. I am not a teacher.
I read the page and I was shocked because I confirmed it is the same Siling Tongkhor the other monks spoke about. The Sera Je monks confirmed it is him and he is not revered as you say. As I said, if he can spit his negativities, then he is not above the law and beyond something to respect. You should not encourage this type of behavior from monks we Westerners send our hard earned money to support.
You have motivated me even more to go further with this.
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
Elizabeth – You do not belong to any group or centre, and only attend a few of His Holiness’s talks? Then why do these monks write to YOU? If you are no one special, then why are they writing to you personally about these private and sensitive issues? This makes no sense at all! If you’re going to make up stories you’ll have to do better than this!
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
You claim you are sponsoring monks, and it just so happens that the monks you are sponsoring, have told you about the one monk who is helping out the most, at the Talk About Shugden group, and he happens to be a paedophile who pays young monks for sexual acts? This is so absurd, it would make me laugh, if it were not so disgusting.
Siling is a Tulku and one of the two spiritual directors of Sermey Rongpo Khangtsen, which has over 115 monks including a number of Geshes. Your accusations are disgusting and no one with any common sense would believe them.
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
Your arguments are very ignorant. You presume so much about someone you do not even know. Because he takes a photo of himself with a camera, you conclude he is not being proper? This is absurd! You do not know the first thing about Siling, so please do not embarrass yourself further. Perhaps you need to go to a few more teachings by His Holiness!
Elizabeth Hardwick
August 18, 2014
Robert Helms-
If you must know:
1. I have been a Free Tibet activist for the last ten years.
I have supported the cause of Free Tibet. I do not need to belong to any centre to do this or acquire information. I have very good friends in the CTA and we have spoken very intimately on what needed and needs to be improved in the Monasteries. I raise sponsorship for the monasteries and nunneries and therefore I will not tolerate this type of behavior. You do not need to question me but question Siling Tongkhor himself.
2. Siling Tongkhor is not the only monk committing these acts. Sera Je and Mey Monasteries combined contain thousands of men. Do you think they are all so holy? There are more monks who commit this, but I know Siling Tongkor is one of them. It is a shame and a shock to Westerners who have a perfect view of an imperfect institution. There are good monks for sure, but also very villainous ones too.
3. I support Dalai Lama, Free Tibet, the monasteries and yes I have been sponsoring monks for years.
I do not have to prove to you or anyone the truth of my allegations. I have brought it up to my CTA friends and they have advised me to write to the Abbots. I will pursue this. Whether you believe me or not is insignificant. Siling Tongkhor Tulku may be a spiritual director or Rongpo khamtsen, so what? Bigger men have fallen from much higher places before.
Remember, if he or anyone will print, speak or say ill of others, be ready for it to be turned back on him. Everyone has enemies and everyone has offended someone. Get your mind out of the Shangrila attitude about the Tibetan monasteries. They are filled with treachery, lies, politics, sexual misbehavior and men who hide behind robes. There are the good and the bad and I am disgusted with the support of the ones who need to found out. I am disgusted. Totally disgusted.
Michael Brown
August 18, 2014
Robert Helms,
I understand where you are coming from, but I would advise you to stop asking more of this Elizabeth. What you are further asking and she is replying will not help Siling Tongkhor. Don’t irritate her further. She maybe be fabricating, she may not be. How well do any of us know Siling. If something should come out of this, it would not be good. Let her pursue if she wants, but perhaps you should advise Siling to stop his negative commenting. He is a monk and a Tulku and whatever the situation, he should be more controlled for lack of a better word especially online.
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
Do you expect me to believe all that? This is absolute nonsense. If you are supporting the Dalai Lama and have close ties to the CTA, then why are you commented on the dorjeshugden.com website, and slandering an innocent monk who is working so diligently?
Why would you be telling me all this, and yet not be willing to back up your claims? If you really have close ties to the CTA, then give me your real name and contact details, and I will contact them myself, and then contact the person you claim to be with the contact details confirmed by the CTA.
You say you do not have to prove to me or anyone else the truth of your accusations? I say that you certainly DO have to prove it, if you make such disgusting and serious claims about a monk in such a position.
Until such a time that you do provide proof, then I will conclude you are talking absolute nonsense. I don’t know who you think you are kidding, but no one with any common sense would think you were genuine.
Prove me wrong.
KT
August 18, 2014
Robert Helms,
What are you doing on this Shugden website? You are anti Shugden. Your whole group including Carol McQuire and all come to this site and extract information to post on your page. Both anti and pro Shugden people come to this site as it’s comprehensive for your information and that is why it has over 1,692,000 views! The Shugden FB fanpage has over 100,000 likes.
Why is your innocent monk slandering other people if he is so diligent. I don’t think Elizabeth has to prove anything to you or share her private information. She would be insane to share that. I am sure she will prove it to the right people and that is not you.
Michael Winder
August 18, 2014
Robert,
For starters, who are you that we need to convince you? Second, if you can’t see it for yourself what’s so plainly obvious to everyone, anything we show you as proof you will deny as being fabricated. So why waste our time?
And if you’re not interested in Dorje Shugden, why are you even on this website trying to deny the teachings of the hundreds of lineage masters? What makes YOU so special to deny that Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Tathag Rinpoche all practised Dorje Shugden and oh hey, all three were the Dalai Lama’s tutors?
Robert J
August 18, 2014
Robert Helms,
Why should anyone prove anything to you? Who are you? Go and cool off.
Can we keep this thread about SOAS please?
Thanks everyone.
Michael Winder
August 18, 2014
And just following up on what KT has said, the CTA published a hit list of people. Why on earth with Elizabeth expose her details to you, and in turn to them (the CTA I mean)? Have a little common sense, please.
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
Michael – Thank you, but I am not intimidated by this nonsense, so I will enquiry as deeply as it goes. The thing about ‘lies’ is if you investigate deeply enough, you find there is no truth in them.
KT
August 18, 2014
Robert Helms,
Of course you wouldn’t be intimidated as it’s not about you. But Siling Tongkhor Rinpoche of Sera Mey Monastery is the one accused.
But the less you ask, the less is written. So the less it will be embarrassing for the nonsense Siling Tongkhor has allegedly committed. Again, bigger leaders have fallen from much higher places. Tibetan Monasteries house all types of men. Beware.
Jake Kindell
August 18, 2014
I think its a good thing that we can finally have a dialogue on the issue.
The speakers were all wonderful and i believe the Tibetan monk to be an authority on the Shugden issue.
It seems he was a Geshe and teaches somewhere in London.
I really hope we won’t have to go through all this for long.
Thank you for the videos. God bless
Weiss T Gold
August 18, 2014
The monk is not an authority on the Dorje Shugden issue. To say that during the time of Tsongkapa and his immediate disciples (Kedrup Je and Gyaltsab Je) there was no writings on Shugden or practice therefore negates the validity of the practice is ridiculous.
1. Shugden did not arise as a protector till after Tsongkapa passed away 250 years later.
2. There are many texts and practices and commentaries composed hundreds of years later after Tsongkapa’s passing that are used today in the monasteries that did not exist during Tsongkapa’s time. They were composed by eminent masters and scholars such as His Holiness Panchen Rinpoche.
This monk is not knowledgeable on this issue and his presentation was not impressive at all. He does not have his own centre but lives at Jamyang Centre in London which is owned by Lama Zopa Rinpoche. This monk Tashi Tsering’s stay and lodging all come from Jamyang Centre in London.
Kattie
August 18, 2014
I once went to a New Kadampa Tradition centre and I asked them for a copy of Je Rinpoche’s Lamrim.
They handed me one, it says Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as the author of the book. I asked the shopkeeper to hand me one by Je Rinpoche not the one by another author as there are many such books.
They told me that Geshe Kelsang is the Je Rinpoche and so it doesn’t matter.
I told her that is not right, with due respect to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, one cannot simply just translate a book into english from another language and claim to be the author of that book.
Thats a lie and if Geshe Kelsang knows about this he will certainly ask them to remove the subtitle as it will be a disgrace to Je Rinpoche’s lineage itself.
After some discussion, they told me I was rude to question Geshe la’s authority on the subject in hand, by then three nuns and one monk came up and shoved me away.
I am really disappointed at how things have turned out then, I went there again the next morning with a bouquet and tried to say sorry for the inconvenience caused.
I was stopped at the door by two monks looking not very happy and suspicious, especially with the bouquet( they must have seen me coming from their CCTV, I am not sure how) and shoved me away saying “we don’t want people with wrong views to visit us”.
I was so disappointed how someone claiming Buddhist do that to another.
Its very sad indeed.
Sandy L. Hemingway
August 18, 2014
No Weiss, Geshe Tashi la is a first class Lharampa geshe from the prestigious Sera Mey University.
I think he has read far more texts and scriptures on Buddhism itself and not just on the Shugden worshipping and banning issue.
He clearly says that since Lama Tsongkhapa’s time to the time of the Great 5th Dalai Lama there are no talks of Dorje Shugden from any of the great masters for nearly 300 years.
Also, from the 5th Dalai Lama to Phabhongkha Rinpoche no one has heard of Shugden being the most important Dharmapala of Geluk lineage.
So it stands to reason that Geshe Tashi was right about his statement that no Lama until the time of Phabhongka made a claim of Shugden being an important deity of the Geluk lineage.
Michael Winder
August 18, 2014
Hey Carol McQuire (from the Facebook group We Need to Talk About Shugden),
You court some interesting people for your cause. Just wanted to let you know that your good online friend Robert Helms is a bit of a porn aficionado. He left these comments under the handle ‘RJHelms84′ in 2013 on these websites:
http://tour.pinupfiles.com/video/brooke-britt-vol-3-set-1
http://tour.pinupfiles.com/video/tessa-fowler-merry-christmas-2
You can check his own Facebook gaming page to see that that really is his username: http://www.facebook.com/BeyondBoulderDome/info?ref=page_internal
He was also temporarily banned from an online forum, after being warned about his use of profanity on their chat: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/971872-rjhelms84-reinstated/
Between him and Siling Tongkhor (the monk who has “improper relations” and bribes the younger ones to remain quiet), you may want to be a little more discerning when selecting people to support and represent you and your beliefs. Cavorting with those who are less-than-virtuous is a stain on whatever reputation you have.
Weiss T Gold
August 18, 2014
Hemingway,
For your information, if Geshe Tashi was a first class Geshe, then he shouldn’t be the only one. There hundreds of first class Geshes that arose from Ganden, Sera and Drepung. There are hundreds that practice Dorje Shugden past and present. They all cannot be wrong can they?
And these first class geshes all practiced Dorje Shugden based on the writings and teachings of various great authors of both Gelug and Sakya tradition.
Btw, the Sakya passed the Dorje Shugden lineage to the Gelugs. It was also practiced by the Sakyas. In fact the Fifth Dalai Lama himself composed prayers.
Prayer composed to Shugden by Great 5th Dalai Lama:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/prayer-by-the-fifth-dalai-lama-to-gyelchen-dorje-shugden/
Prayer by the Sakya throne holder:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3467.0
Prayer to Shugden by His Holiness Panchen Rinpoche:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/introduction/history/10th-panchen-lama-writes-prayer-to-dorje-shugden/
Are you saying Panchen Rinpoche is wrong too? I don’t think so. He was a great and eminent scholar and master of the highest learning.
Chapel to Shugden in Lhasa built by Great 5th Dalai Lama in Lhasa:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/places/dorje-shugden-chapel-lhasa-tibet-built-by-the-dalai-lama/
This chapel is 350 years old. 5th Dalai Lama built this to apologize for the mistakes against Shugden.
Prayer to Shugden by 14th and current Dalai Lama:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/melody-of-the-unceasing-vajra-by-the-14th-dalai-lama/
Prayer to Shugden by Kyabje Dragi Dorje Chang of Sera Jey Monastery:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/offerings-praises-fulfillment-and-requests-to-the-dharmapala-dorje-shugden-by-kyabje-dragri-dorje-chang/
Incense offering by the first Serkong Dorje Chang of Ganden Jangtse College:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/incense-offering-prayer-to-dorje-shugden/
Prayer to Dorje Shugden by Kyabje Ling Rinpoche the senior tutor to current Dalai Lama:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/request-of-activities-of-protectors-by-kyabje-ling-rinpoche/
In fact here many prayers and rituals written to Shugen by eminent lamas and scholars of Tibet:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/
Shugden practice has been widespread and practiced by many great teachers and master for the last 350 years.
Anonymous
August 18, 2014
KT – your boast that FB Shugden page has 100,000 likes is interesting. 100,000 pales into insignificance against the claim that Shugden is worshipped by 4 million people. Does that mean that only one quarter of 1 percent of Shugden followers bother to “Like” the fan page for their chosen supreme deity?
Weiss T. Gold – on closer examination of your claims listed above, we find that many are just not proof of what you claim at all. For example, the supposed temple built by the Great 5th was outside the walls of the temple proper, as was deemed appropriate for a WORLDLY PROTECTOR, not a Buddha.
The point in the promotion of a worldly protector into an Object of Refuge is non-Buddhist. The Dalai Lama and other non-Shugden worshipping lamas may consult and use Protector deities, but THEY DO NOT WORSHIP THEM. This is the crux of the matter which you people just blithely ignore in your determination to prove yourselves right. If anything is shown that does not fit in with your position you just discount it or discredit the source of information on the grounds that they’re mad, false etc etc.
Oh and Jared, re: your contention that “the whole idea of Transpersonal Identity Disorder is flawed to the limit, when discussing this on a website from a Tibetan Buddhist background…. in that one statement you’ve just labeled all of Vajrayana Buddhism as having a mental disorder”…..
No, I have not labelled all Vajrayana Buddhism as having a mental disorder. Once again, we see the usual NKT misinformation and misinterpretation tactics, known as “putting words into someone else’s mouth”. The point about TIP in this context is that this disorder occurs as a result of INCORRECT spiritual practice where the practitioner becomes confused about relative and absolute truth, and in this context the practice of Tantra leads to strengthening of the ego-self, instead of diminishment of the ego-self. This is CLEARLY the case with Dorje Shugden worshippers exhibiting a totally inappropriate attachment to the practice of deity worship, as if deity worship has got anything to do with real spiritual practice. Real spiritual practice transcends any notions of deities. Worship of anything or anyone is totally irrelevant and your clinging to this practice is like a bunch of children determined not to give up their favorite toy. With such an ego-driven exhibition of ignorance of what the Buddha really taught, it’s a wonder you bother to claim to be Buddhist at all.
Grateful Kadampa
August 18, 2014
Anonymous – You seem to make a lot of assumptions! You use the number of likes for a particular FB page as some sort of proof about the actual number of Shugden practitioners worldwide! How absurd.
Plus, all this talk about worshipping Shugden! I don’t personally know anyone who ‘worships’ Shugden (anymore than they ‘worship’ Buddha Shakyamuni or Buddha Tara, or Manjushri, etc., etc., and I know a lot of Shugden practitioners.)
Also, how do you ascertain who on this thread is from the NKT? Simply because you don’t agree with their view?! You must have a lot of perceived enemies then.
Lastly, you also believe that if someone misinterprets a spiritual instruction it is the sole fault of that tradition? Odd that.
Robert Helms
August 18, 2014
Michael Winder — I freely admit those comments were made by me. I am not a monk, and I do enjoy porn.
As for the banning, I was banned from the chat on a video game site, for using the word “shit”, or something even less profane, I can’t quite remember, in general conversation only once. I argued with the moderator about it briefly, and as soon as I questioned him I was immediately banned. It is a very strict site, which I learned that day.
I am not surprised you would dig around on the internet and try to discredit me, it was only a matter of time before I was next on the firing line by the NKT. It is a very sad tactic that you need to try to ruin someone’s reputation, because you can’t win your arguments directly. This is the same thing that the NKT is trying to do to His Holiness. They must resort to trying to destroy his reputation and good name. It is very sad behaviour for Buddhists.