UPDATE: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion

Also, I just spoke with the real Michael Brown, and he tells me he never posted here in the comments, so for anyone reading these comments, bear in mind there is deception taking place here. Someone is using fake names to post, to make it seem there are more people commenting than there actually are.

Grateful Kadampa – You have a funny idea of evidence. I have been doing extension research into your claims and found none! Also, the Indian Court found no evidence.

So it doesn’t exactly seem like the evidence is “abounding”!

I assure you, I have been studying all the evidence as it is presented. Answer my question: why did the Indian Court find no evidence, if it “abounds” as you say?

“The discrimination has been going on for 20 years — lots of evidence to show a religious apartheid is taking place within the Tibetan exiled community. Actually just this week new reports of discrimination taking place have come in.”

Shugden monks in Tibet are given preferential treatment and support by the Chinese occupiers of Tibet. They have no need for exiled status. They can go home and practice Shugden in Tibet with all the freedom they require, unlike the supporters of the Dalai Lama and his view of a Free Tibet.

If there are divisions and hostilities among people in the Tibetan exiled community I think that it is the Shugden practioners themselves who have fostered and encouraged this, by their hateful attitude towards the beloved leader of the vast majority of Tibetans. As Dr Mills said in the discussion, the monastery in which he lived where they quietly did a bit of Shugden propitiation for political protection purposes, specifically requested the international Shugden community NOT to make such a fuss and cause a problem for them in this practice, where none existed before.

What may have been a small problem due to difference of opinion on Shugden practice has been turned into a massive weltering boil of poison, thanks to the actions of the NKT and its various “protest” front groups.

To turn round and attack the Dalai Lama as being the cause of the tensions and problems in the Tibetan exiled community would be somewhat akin to the Northern Ireland Protestants blaming the Pope for the actions of the IRA, or the Archbishop of Canterbury for the actions of the UDR. Absurd.

Anonymous – OK, then I guess I (and many others) are ‘followers’ of Buddha Shaykamuni, Buddha Tara, Manjushri, (some even!) Dorje Shugden! No foot stamping here mate towards that line up! Not really sure ‘how’ the Dalai Lama thought he was OK to try and wipe out a lineage (although I do know the ‘why’ which is a political one).

You write: “And for the slimey gutter-press would-be News-of-the-World style “investigators” among you – I expect you can find plenty of dirt on me if you want to dig for it but I have nothing to hide and am not ashamed of anything from my colourful past.” OK then — Really, I completely understand why you are under the name of ‘Anonymous’!

So much more to say on this — sadly, I have so little time. Will reply to your other comments ASAP!

This was posted on the Facebook group We Need to Talk About Shugden. Thought it was interesting.

Jampa Jamyang: Haha, Carol McQuire! I think that’s a good idea – keep the Michael Brown with most virtuous friends, haha! NKT is HUGE, they have so many capable and well trained Geshes, monks and nuns that can debate on this topic. They have the resources to spread all over the net and definitely to try signing in as one of us in this group! They’ve been outright protesting and going against His Holiness for the longest time! Michael Brown bro, you sure have a lot of fans out there, and they are all geshes and ordained people!!! What an honour, haha!

Anyway, coming back to the main topic of our group – the dogyal, I wish to know and understand more from your personal point of view in terms of the nature of this spirit and history. If we start calling names without sound basis, we sure look like a bunch of bitter losers seeking for attention, not much different from the forever protesting NKT people . Seriously, what’s the point of starting a group that cannot educate the mass about the spirit? Anyone of you who have been in India and understand what’s really happening there? Ganghen and Kundeling are very active in promoting this spirit. In China, it spreads like wild fire and the Chinese is supporting that! They are loaded with resources for sure! They have Panchen, Thubten Phurpu, Jampa Ngodup and Denma Gonsa spreading this spirit to millions there! What can we do about it?

Carol McQuire I’ve listened to your talk at the SOAS recently. Well done! Can you please share more with us what is it like being an NKT survivor? What makes you have the courage walking out of it?

The NKT survivors group on FB have no office, nothing organized and zero effect on anyone. It’s just a bunch of angry people who had an ulterior motivate to join NKT in the first place perhaps and was found out and left due to embarrassment. Power hungry, attention starved, affirmation of something they missed in childhood or something along those lines hoping to find a replacement in NKT. Some of them just get online and gossip and complain. From their IP addresses they are from various parts of UK and North America. Throw in India for some of the money monks from Sera Mey Monastery that are so free to join into their worldly chat. Inappropriate for a monk or Tulku to do so btw. These people instead of bowing out gracefully when their wishes in NKT were not fulfilled, they just form a group on FB. Is that all? What can this do? Their FB page has no effect. No positive consequences. No one cares and it does nothing for no one. And none of them are qualified therapists or doctors to help the supposed survivors recover if there was anything to recover from. So how are they helping anyone on their ‘survivor’s’ page except increase hate, gossip and waste their time away spewing hatred. None of them are qualified nor trained to help anyone. Get real.
The very fact they lock their group and you cannot join their conversation freely without their approval is a clear indication they are paranoid and wish to control what is being said as it’s not the truth in full. It’s their truth. They will say this and that for hours as they are so free, if they are honest, they won’t be insecure about whoever posts and whatever is posted and let it be open. Let is be a fair debate. If they were genuine, they would open it and anyone can comment just like the space here left open to comment. Imagine, this is a Shugden website and pro and anti Shugden people can both post freely. This shows this site is very confident of themselves, their information and whatever is said does not worry them. Salute to being open. Since the NKT survivor’s page are not open and they only let anti-NKT and anti Shugden people post, how real is their claims on their page? How confident are they? Cowards. They are not honest because anyone with opposing views are not allowed. They do not allow any opposition, sounds like the CTA as a matter of fact. They are not real in their accusations at all.

Nothing to worry about and nothing to contend with. Just let the few of them gossip on and on until the cows come home day in and day out. Nothing will be accomplished at all. Nothing will come of it for sure.

Robert Helms, the Indian High Court in Delhi was asked for two things : an order of mandamus against the Indian Police Authorities to force them to enforce the law against violence and intimidation, and an injunction against the CTA and His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The Judge refused the application on two grounds: first, he had no jurisdiction over matters arising outside Delhi, and second courts would not, on general principal, interfere with Police authorities to force them to act. There was no evidence presented to the court of complaints to the local police by individuals of maltreatment or failure by the police to enforce. The court left it to individuals to complain to the local police. If the local police failed to act then further remedies might be available to them.

In general the Indian High Court did not investigate facts but relies on the parties to bring evidence. I don’t think you can rely on that judgment for the proposition that “the indian court found no evidence” and the implication that there is none to be found.

Michael Maynard – “In general the Indian High Court did not investigate facts but relies on the parties to bring evidence. I don’t think you can rely on that judgment for the proposition that “the indian court found no evidence” and the implication that there is none to be found”.

LMAO – So you people go to the expense and trouble of bringing a High Court Action for persecution, discrimination etc but don’t actually bother to present your evidence to prove your case? I thought there was supposed to be evidence “abounding” everywhere. If your claims were actually TRUE, and not just exaggeration, fabrication and “vague averment”, then presumably it would have been easy to prove them. Why didn’t you? Because you CANNOT. You CANNOT because they are without real substance of what you claim them to be. How ridiculous to try to wriggle out of the obvious fact that this supposed “evidence” that you present to the world in your fact-twisting propagandist videos is no evidence at all.

What we have is just a dispute, a disagreement, and Tibetan people who support the Dalai Lama’s view don’t want anything to do with you because of your hateful speech and actions towards HHDL, and because they fear Shugden and his supporters. Some are even afraid to speak the name of Shugden – he is considered such a nasty demon who hurts those who don’t follow the Gelug tradition “purely” ie who are not Gelug sectarians. Their attitude to Shugden is rather like the Harry Potter characters who won’t speak the name of Voldemort.

The fact that the Indian Court found no evidence is because you couldn’t give them any. You couldn’t give them any because none exists that actually proves the claims of breach of Human Rights, repression of religious freedom or persecution. Get over it!

The Dalai Lama and most Tibetan Buddhists view Dolgyal veneration as a corruption of real Buddhism. By going for refuge to a worldly spirit, you are not Buddhist at all. By the Shugden followers use of outrageous harmful speech and lies, it is clear to all right-minded people that you are not Buddhist. Shugden followers are anti-Tibetan freedom, anti-Dalai Lama, pro-Chinese government collaborators in their campaign to destroy the Dalai Lama and the right of Tibetans to have their country back. Really are you so stupid that you cannot work it out that this is why many of them don’t like you and want no association with you whatsoever? Because of their resulting dislike towards you, you then add insult to injury by claiming to the world that they are persecuting you! Your presentation of the situation is pure horse excrement – far, far removed from the reality.

Right, I need to stop posting replies on here as it is a total waste of time speaking to you people. Like flogging a dead horse. That’s why we don’t allow you on our FB page. Debating/arguing with fanatics is a waste of time and effort.

Good day to you all and may you be quickly freed from Shugden’s demonic possession of your minds.

Yeah right, “Gyatso Drolma” – go to the police then and get the perpetrators who have you “living in fear” arrested. Or, better still give up your attachment to this divisive sectarian practice and harmony will quickly be restored among your family and among Tibetan Buddhists. Why this big attachment to some largely imaginary entity? Did Buddha say anywhere you must be totally devoted to your chosen “Protector” above and beyond anything else, especially your friends and family? No – of course not. Dolgyal Shugden had not even been invented then and besides, worshipping this deity, practicing that deity – what has any of it really got to do with the Path to Enlightenment, which necessitates freedom from all attachment – including attachment to protectors and deities!

For goodness sake, let it go – it really is more trouble than it’s worth. Think about it a bit, instead of selfishly clinging so hard to being right and to a practice which is really not very important for any right-minded person engaged on a genuine spiritual path. I’m sure your family would welcome you back into their arms if you stopped all this peddling of hatred towards the Dalai Lama. If you must practice Shugden just get on with it, no need to make a song and dance about it in front of the whole world. What is all this drama and attention-seeking from you tiny bunch of non-Buddhist theists really about? Maybe you need to get psychiatric help?

What good has the fanatical devotion to this Shugden entity good done for you? Torn your family apart, as you say… Fat lot of good his “protection” has done for you, isn’t it?

And as for Sam Tshering suggesting that the Tibetans turn to good old Shugden for help and protection! Yeah, great idea Sam Tshering – with a track record like he has for protecting Tibet and the Tibetan people, I wouldn’t be putting any bets on a positive outcome if the Dalai Lama took your advice. Again, a fat lot of good Shugden worship did for the Dalai Lama and the ruling Gelug elite of Tibet when the Chinese marched in, murdering and destroying anyone or anything in the name of “liberation” of Tibet.

In fact, when you think about it, when Shugden practice was really in its ascendancy in Tibet, when the Dalai Lama and most of the high ranking people practiced it, that time co-incided exactly with the beginning of China’a aggression towards Tibet, leading to the invasion in the 50s, the forcing out of the Dalai Lama and the continuing regime of REAL FEAR, REAL REPRESSION and REAL PERSECUTION against the Tibetan people – unlike this horse-doo-doo story about your supposedly terrible life in India, Gyatso Drolma. Not only is what you claim to be “terrible suffering” a total insult to the PEOPLE WHO REALLY ENDURE TERRIBLE SUFFERING, it is an insult to the Indian people and the Indian government too. If living in India is so terrible for you, go back to Tibet – that’s what you Tibetans want isn’t it? And you will be welcomed with open arms by your Chinese supporters there. So stop crying your crocodile tears and quit your transparent attempts to tug people’s heartstrings. It’s called narcissistic manipulation – we don’t buy it – WE DON’T BELIEVE YOU.

For more insight into Narcissistic manipulation, please keep reading. Now, who does this remind me of? :

“Another way that the narcissist’s ego gets special attention is through the role of being a victim. Welcome to the victimized extreme narcissist. Most persons recognize ego as arrogance. At the same time they fail to see the subtle deception of ego when it takes the role of a being a victim. As kind and compassion-driven human beings, we easily are fooled by this form of extreme ego. We are constantly hearing the voices of the needy in the media through a variety of forms. The disenfranchised, the poor, the homeless, the hurting, the refugees, the abused, and the list goes on. What we often do not see is that we are many times shamed by these voices for not doing enough for them. All along it is easy to be manipulated as we respond from our hearts. The deception of the ego is that the narcissist can hide behind misfortune and victimization in order to shame you into feeling and believing that they suffer more than you do. They will say that you don’t care enough for them. They will make you feel that you have not done enough to help them. The ego wants attention, control, gain, and power over others by positioning itself as a “poor and helpless” victim. It does this; all the while it soaks up the attention and control over others. In the eyes of an extreme narcissist, their situation is always right and totally justified. Instead of taking responsibility for self and consequences, the extreme narcissist tries to make others feel responsible for their plight. Because extreme narcissists are incredibly adept at the game of manipulation, they will always find a way to turn the tables on you. They will try to make you responsible and feel guilty for not helping them or taking their side and cause.”

Is the breach of Drolma Gyatso’s right to sympathy another “human right” that you Shugdenites are going to demonstrate about ? Are you going to hold up placards demanding the human right to “sympathy”, and shout throughout the Dalai Lama’s teachings in Hamburg, so as to disturb the peace and enjoyment of the thousands who have come to hear him give Dharma talks. Hardly the way to endear yourselves to the people who you think owe you “sympathy” is it?

“You have been religiously persecuted and that is the truth. ” No, Christian Dodds it is not “the truth” – it is a claim. Truth, by its very nature, is incontravertible. All the videos and stories I have seen that supposedly show “persecution” are gross exaggerations which include both lies and fabrication. For example, the video which showed monks being made “homeless” actually showed BURMESE monks on traditional alms-rounds with begging bowls. And this video was supposed to make us feel “sympathy” for “homeless” monks. In fact it was pure fabrication, distortion of truth and baseless claims. Another video showed a supposed “mob attacking” Shugden people. The video showed just a traffic jam with someone CLAIMING they were being attacked. There was no sign or sound, NONE WHATSOEVER, of the supposed rampaging “mob”. Another showed some people milling about taking photos outside a monastery and this was billed as the monastery being “attacked”. The list of fabrication, exaggeration and distortion of facts goes on and on. Truth? yeah right.

Why is Dalai Lama infallible? Why can’t the Dalai Lama be wrong?
Why be such a strong follower of the cult of Dalai Lama? Dalai Lama is human. He can be wrong and he is not above the law. He is not a god or super human. He is human, so don’t be fanatical about him. He should release the ban and stop all the persecution. He will have to. It will become he has to backtrack and release the ban.

Good morning. Namastay, Tashi Delek

That is so not true. Dalai Lama is a God king. He has been served since his childhood. He never ever made one cup of tea for himself. Do you think he will do anything for others? He is the boss.

All he did was received money from CIA and others in the name of Tibetans. And used the money for his own purposes. All the works are done by the people who got paid little. On the contrary, Dalai Lama’s family members are rich and all went abroad to have a better future with a lot of money.

Seriously, I don’t know how did he get his NOBEL PRIZE. By just praying, controlling people.

As for the ban on Shugden Worshipers, it is political movement. A lot of Khampa fighters were Shugden followers and they were very loyal to their own Gurus. I remember during 1980s, one of the Khampa leader offended Dalai Lama by saying “we only worship our own gurus” Since then, Dalai lama started campaign against them. The rest, you will find out more from reading History book not written by CTA. Read the book “The False Dalai Lama.”

Anyway, THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL ONEDAY.
No need to wasting time arguing here.
Good day

Anonymous – re your slanderous claims about the Dalai Lama using money for his “own purposes” and attacking other lamas, I quote from an article “The White Shadow of the Dalai Lama”:

“His Holiness takes no money for teachings or talks. Teachings in India are free and Tibetan tea and bread are generously served to attendees. Proceeds for events overseas are used to cover the expenses of his visit. Any excess is used by the host sponsors either for charitable purposes or to further their own mission. If you want to donate to His Holiness, you will be redirected by his website to the Dalai Lama Trust: http://www.dalailamatrust.org This is a non-profit charity, supporting many causes. In 2013, the trust contributed $50,000 to the Red Cross to support typhoon relief efforts in the Phillipines and $1,250,000 to the Emory-Tibet Science Partnership. In 2012, the trust contributed $1,510,000 to support science partnership projects in the West, including $1,250,000 to the Mind and Life Institute in Hadley, Mass. In that year, $10,000 went to the Tibet Fund in New York and $84,350 went to the Tibetan Village project in Westminster, Colorado.”

Perhaps you were getting confused with Kelsang Gyatso, who does indeed use all NKT funds for his “own purposes” ie building temples to glorify himself and his NKT, buying hotels, mansions etc. A lot of KG/NKT property empire was also funded by British Taxpayers in the form of Housing and Unemployment Benefit claimed by the residents living and working at the centres. I know this for a fact as I was one of them, and I can guarantee that the vast majority of other residents at the time were all doing the same.

When I was in the NKT we were always told that charitable giving was not important – all that was important was spreading NKT dharma – also known as, expanding the property empire of NKT.

Yet again, we see the pot calling the kettle black. Shugden worship is a circular, self-serving practice. The worship of Shugden was initiated to protect and serve the Gelug tradition’s power and influence. On the other hand, the Dalai Lama is actively against the sectarianism that Shugden embodies.

Again, re your claim that Dalai Lama has been jealous and actively attacked other lamas. Again, just more slander. Below is a detailed example which PROVES BEYOND DOUBT that Shugden people are treacherous liars. This example is from one of your “Dalai Lama Truth” (ie LIES) fabricated slanderous videos, where it was said that the Dalai Lama had got Dudzom Rinpoche imprisoned because he was supposedly jealous of him. But when you read Dudzom’s biography you will find that this is just another big fat LIE spread by Shugden supporters:

This tale itself that is part of the Dolgyal “Great Deception”. It’s not a Dalai Lama “Great Deception” – it is a Shugden Great Deception. For the truth about who played which role in the imprisonment of Dudjom Rimpoche read his Biography Light of Fearless Indestructible Wisdom: The Life and Legacy of H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche by Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal. Page 129 -131. You will learn that the persons who orchestrated his imprisonment were motivated by political and “sectarian sentiments” against Dudjom Rinpoche for giving popular non-Gelug teachings (ie Dolgyal followers?!?). The Dalai Lama and other high ranking people put pressure on the Indian government to have him released.

Below is the slanderous video produced by the Shugdenites. And when you think about it’s pretty obvious that it was Shugden people behind the imprisonment of Dudzom. He was was a popular teacher of Nyingma which Pabongka considered a false path and the Yellow Book is full of examples of how Shugden attacks and strikes down anyone who practices teachings other than Gelug ie Nyingma teachings:

The video in question can be viewed on YouTube “Dudjom Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama”

This video has got the facts upside down. But that is what we come to expect from all the propaganda spewed out by Shugden followers. Here we see a very typical example of the way Dolgyal followers distort the truth out of all recognition and create a totally fictional version of events, a fabrication to fuel their totally false worldview, in order to condemn His Holiness the Dalai Lama for the sins, of which it is they themselves who are guilty”.

So you are right “Anonymous” – the TRUTH WILL COME OUT. It’s coming out already and we know who are the real jealous liars, against religious freedom. It is Shugden and his followers. Not the Dalai Lama. What your campaign is all about is a massive con trick – deflecting the reality that everything said about the Dalai Lama is actually a description of Shugden and his followers, especially the NKT and Kelsang Gyatso. Pah!

(This comment was reposted and all links removed because I could not post it with all the links)

Anonymous – Yes, I think some of my confusion arose from the numerous Anonymous’ posting. Thanks for clearing that up!

Couple of questions for you: (if you have the time)
1) What do you see the real agenda being?
2) How could you possibly know my particular mind and what I may or may not think?

BTW: No one in the ISC hands anyone a packet of information and says to “study up people — this is the party line”! This notion is a complete falsity. Actually, it seems to me like you are talking about the CTA here!

Grateful Kadampa, as for the “real agenda”. We have to look at Kelsang Gyatso for that. After all, it is really he who is behind all this. When he tells you lot to jump, you jump, when he tells you to protest, you protest. When he tells you to stop protesting, you stop protesting.

Sadly, Kelsang Gyatso is lost in his own Narcissistic Cult World. He’s just really, really angry that the Dalai Lama doesn’t agree with Shugden worship and he is determined to win, so that he can prove to himself and the world, especially the Tibetans, that he is right. I think his fantasy is that the world will turn to him, away from the Dalai Lama, and herald him as the “Third Buddha”, the new world messiah. LMAO.

Oh yes he’s desperate for recognition by the Tibetans, especially after he was contemptuously struck off by his of his own erstwhile monastery and dumped by his own uncle That’s why he has suddenly turned out his first ever book written in Tibetan!?! That’s why he’s desperate to get all these temples built all over the world. He wants to BE SOMEBODY. All these protests are a show of his childish jealousy of the Dalai Lama, a form of attention-seeking for someone who feels slighted and ignored. But he is, and always will be just a grey smudge, against the brilliant shining light of the Dalai Lama. These protests are an enactment of a small child’s buried rage …. “Look at ME! I’m the good guy, I’m the best – not him( he’s bad), ME!” …stamping his feet in a rage.

You might like to read up on the “Cult of the Narcissist” by Sam Vaknin. Below is a quote from it. Now, who does this remind you of?

“The narcissist is the guru at the centre of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality (eg without even having true Geshe status) – the more stringent his mastery, the more outlandish and incredible his mission and message, and the more pervasive the brainwashing.

Cult leaders are narcissists who failed in their quest to “be someone”, to become famous, and to impress the world with their uniqueness, talents, traits, and skills. Such disgruntled narcissists withdraw into a “Pathological Narcissistic Space” that assumes the hallmarks of a cult.

The members of the narcissist’s mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them an exclusionary or inclusionary shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, “enemies”, mythical-grandiose narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted. It is a mental enclave of suspended judgement which fast becomes the disciples’s comfort zone where – devoid of all responsibilities and the guilt attendant on failure (“performance anxiety”) – they feel calm and assured of the master’s unconditional acceptance and “love”. It is a re-enactment of the follower’s early childhood, only this time with an ideal, benevolent parent.

Exclusionary shared psychosis involves the physical and emotional isolation of the narcissist and his “flock” (spouse, children, fans, friends) from the outside world in order to better shield them from imminent threats and hostile intentions. Inclusionary shared psychosis revolves around attempts to spread the narcissist’s message in a missionary fashion among friends, colleagues, co-workers, fans, churchgoers, and anyone else who comes across the mini-cult.

He acts in a patronising and condescending manner and criticises often. He alternates between emphasising the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits, and skills (idealises) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimises his subsequent abusive conduct.

The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skilful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.

His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn’t brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.”

Oh dear, or dear, oh dear. Hopefully a light bulb might have gone off in that muddled head of yours. But then again, not likely – knowing how entrenched and invested most of you people are in being right, and bleating “Shugden is not a cult! We’re not fanatics! – It’s you – YOU are a Dalai Lama cultist, you, you, CTA spy, you, you Dalai Lama fanatic, you – it’s YOU!”
LMAO

Really, if you could just listen to yourselves it’s actually quite funny, when you forget how serious it is too.

Dear Anonymous, I am not moved, shaken or stirred by any of what you write here. I do believe I know who you are though.

I always find when someone on these types of threads resorts to spiteful and sarcastic remarks (to the extent you are using them) it is time to take a break.

If you are the same ‘Anonymous’ who responded to Gatyso Drolma’s post — then it is definitely time to take a break.

Everyone has a right to freedom of speech and to have a different view from another. When those views become aggressive — that is quite a different situation.

I assume you are a student of the Dalai Lama’s? If so, your words to not show a good example to others.

No, Grateful Krudumper, I am not a student of the Dalai Lama. I’m not a Buddhist. You are though. And YOUR exhibition of DIVISIVE utterly HARMFUL SPEECH towards the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people is not a good example of Buddhism. The antics of these NKT people dancing, drumming and shouting in the street, with megaphones, just to disturb the peace of sincere people who want to listen to teachings from a renowned Buddhist master is truly a disgrace to Buddhism. So don’t come over all righteous to me, I don’t buy it. But that’s NKT all over, all their accusations against others just dripping with hypocrisy. Before you start lecturing me, a non-Buddhist, about my example, just think about YOUR example first, next time you get on that coach for one of your disgraceful “protests”.

Grateful Kadampa – I’m sorry I have to pick you up on your last comment yet again. Yes I am being sarcastic at times but not really “aggressive”. Taking the P. out of you? Yes, guilty as charged! What’s up? Sense of humour failure or what? I guess I should have known better than try to be a bit amusing among fanatics. I forgot fanatics do not have a sense of humour. One thing they REALLY can’t stand is people making fun of them. I guess I should have had more “sympathy” for your “mental illness” of religious fanaticism. Remember though “If you can laugh at yourself, you will always be amused”.

Linda,
Do you read only Propaganda by CTA? I am Tibetan from India and I am 55. Whatever happened before, I experienced it . I am telling the truth from the point of view of insiders. Believer or not, one day you will realize and regret helping CTA ad Dalai Lama victimizing the innocents Shugden followers in India.

Trolls…

It amazes me to read how you reply to the people that are experiencing the ban first hand: “Stop your attachment to this deity and get a real spiritual path”. You are really nice, wow, how compassionate. Yeah, lets just think the Gurus were all wrong and I know better, thats a real path to enlightenment taught by the Dalai Lama. OH WAIT! that video with him saying that is also a lie from the NKT.

REFUTE THIS: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/downloads/texts/download-music-delighting-the-ocean-of-protectors/

Oh and Grateful Kadampa – you are certainly adept at the skills of projection – ie pot calling the kettle black YET AGAIN. If it weren’t for the aggressive attacks you people make on the Dalai Lama and aggressive personal character attacks on friends of mine ie Carol – “mentally ill”, Siling – a sexual deviant, Robert Helms for something minor you dredged up – I WOULD NOT BE COMMENTING HERE AT ALL.

So I repeat, don’t come over all righteous to me. You bunch of utter hypocrites.

Truth Seeker – please don’t tell me things that are untrue and then try to get me to behave according to the falsities you propound. The NKT and the Dorje Shugden issue are inextricably mixed. It is the NKT who are chiefly behind the angry, nasty, libellous “protests” against the Dalai Lama. If it weren’t for Kelsang Gyatso and NKT’s determination to villify the Dalai Lama and create a massive issue about Shugden worship, when even the Shugden lamas asked him not to make such a contentiously visible issue about it, I would not be here making comments at all. The NKT are projecting all the faults of their own religious dictator, their internal culture of bullying and deceit, poor moral discipline etc etc onto His Holiness the Dalai Lama. People like me who are ex-NKT can see this is the case and that is why we got involved. So please, at least make an effort to live up to your name and don’t try to shut people up who are revealing the truth about this anti-Dalai Lama hate campaign, who is behind it and why.

Truth-Seeker, regarding your comment “it is about the religious freedom of countless Dorje Shugden practitioners across the world”. How precisely does the Dalai Lama’s supposed “ban” on Dorje Shugden affect the religious freedom of “countless Shugden practitioners ACROSS THE WORLD.”? Across the world? So now your preposterous claim has extended to the Dalai Lama having power to “ban” Shugden “across the world”. If this were true, how is it that Shugden is freely practiced by anyone who wants to, in the UK, United States, Malaysia, Switzerland, France, Italy ….basically ANY WHERE THEY WANT T? Even in TIBET. Even in CHINA. Even in India. Yes, I’ve seen the pictures of the beautiful Shugden monasteries currently thiriving IN INDIA.

Dear Reader, please take note, of yet another example of the way Shugden/ISC/NKT followers make totally fraudulent, exaggerated claims about the power and significance of the Dalai Lama saying he disapproves of Shugden practice, because it is HARMFUL: Harmful to practitioners themselves, harmful to their relationships with friends, family, fellow Buddhists, harmful to the cause of a free Tibet and harmful to his own life. But if you all want to ignore his advice – FINE, YOU ARE ALL FREE TO DO SO.

Just get on with your Shugden practice “across the world”! You are free to do it! But PLEASE leave the rest of us alone who aren’t interested in your bovine excrement and victim/[persecution complex. Stop sending us your pro-Shugden books, emails, letters etc and stop your disgraceful, hateful “protests”. Meanwhile, I suggest you seek psychiatric help for your Transpersonal Identity Disorder. Treatments are available.

While the Dalai Lama enjoys a luxurious life for himself, making huge amounts of money through using Buddha’s teachings, he causes millions of people to suffer by creating division between them and destroying their harmony and peaceful life. Because of their blind faith or extreme religious views people believe the Dalai Lama’s harmful words without investigation, and sincerely follow his misleading guidance. As a result non-Shugden practitioners have become extremely angry with Shugden practitioners. They have forcefully expelled Shugden practitioners from Tibetan society, using public humiliation, provocation, intimidation and threats, including dismissing them from their jobs, refusing them basic services and publicly spreading lies about them.

The Dalai Lama is an ordained Buddhist monk. Buddha said that ordained people should never harm a single living being or cause anyone suffering, but the Dalai Lama has harmed and is continuing to harm millions of innocent people by causing them completely unnecessary suffering, fear and danger. He is acting in direct contradiction to Buddha’s teachings and is publicly showing great disrespect to Buddha and Buddhism. In one month alone, February 2008, he expelled 900 innocent Shugden monks from the Tibetan community. All of these monks were very poor, and they lost everything, including care and support for their daily lives received from their relatives, friends and community. They had no idea where they should go or who would support and help them, finding themselves refugees for a second time.

In truth this kind of suffering pervades Tibetan communities throughout the world, and only the Dalai Lama himself has the power to solve this problem. Through checking carefully and honestly everybody can understand that the actions of this false Dalai Lama go directly against the law of basic human rights.

To liberate millions of innocent people from this endless suffering we request everyone throughout the world, including world leaders, to ask the Dalai Lama to accept the following four points:

1. To allow anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden the freedom to do so.
2. To stop completely the discrimination against Shugden practitioners.
3. To allow all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled to return to their monasteries and nunneries, and to receive the same material and spiritual rights as non-Shugden practitioners.
4. To write to Tibetan communities throughout the world telling them that they should apply practically the above three points.

No one is asking the Dalai Lama to change his own personal view of Shugden. No one is asking non-Shugden practitioners to accept Shugden as a practice. All that is asked is that the Dalai Lama allow religious freedom [without discrimination]. Basic human rights.

A simple e-mail could solve this 20+ year old problem of suffering and discrimination. The demonstrations would completely stop and this controversy would finally end. The 14th Dalai Lama could then have completed the work of the Great 5th Dalai Lama.

A ‘simple Buddhist monk’ would consider this an acceptable solution in order to help his own people, and his own reputation from [continually] degenerating.