Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)
Dalai Lama’s reaction in this video is quite surprising in that he is angry, with pointing finger and curt. Dalai Lama does not give much chance for the nun to speak nor shows any compassion or care towards this ‘enemy’. No dialogue is allowed regarding the Dorje Shugden ban by the Dalai Lama. Publicly Dalai Lama encourages dialogue, but here it is not allowed.
In the video Dalai Lama says:
This is not a matter of religious freedom. No, no, no, no. I know Buddha’s teachings. I know Lama Tsongkapa’s teachings. This (Dorje Shugden’s practice) is not a religion. This is worship of a spirit. So that is wrong.
During this demonstration a gentle and sincere Buddhist nun asked His Holiness Dalai Lama for dialogue on the Dorje Shugden ban issue and also to request His Holiness to stop speaking against Dorje Shugden practitioners which is creating violence against them. The Dalai Lama was angry, rude and not polite at all which is not the usual media-friendly Dalai Lama we are use to. He was pointing at the nun as he spoke with his index finger. It seems as if he was talking down to the nun. He was in fact very angry when asked to stop the persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners by the brave nun. Towards the end you will see a Tibetan man telling the nun to stop bluntly.
Tibetans must realize if you want the help of democratic countries like America, you must also accept freedom of speech, religion and the right to protest that comes along with this financial and political support. Protest incidentally within the Tibetan communities against the Dalai Lama is illegal. It is blatantly not allowed. Any policies by the Dalai Lama is seen as divine and no one may contradict or risk ostracizing.
What the Dalai Lama does not understand is he just met President Obama (February 21, 2014) and he is in the United States of America which stands for no discrimination against any religion whether it is ‘spirit’ practice or not. Dalai Lama may wrongly label Dorje Shugden’s practice as spirit worship, but many millions more do not agree and are deeply hurt if not insulted by his ban. He should not desecrate Dorje Shugden’s practice and publicly denounce it especially when he is traveling in democratic countries like the US where religious freedom is part of the constitution.
Dalai Lama has met President Obama in order to rally support for his cause. He needs the support of the American people also. If that is the case, he should not discriminate against any religion whether he himself deems it spirit practice or not. Which it is not. The issue here is not whether Dorje Shugden is a spirit practice, but the right to practice any religion or forms of worship without denouncements from religious leaders like Dalai Lama. He has progressively denounced the practice of Dorje Shugden publicly creating massive schisms, violence and seperations. Also he has incorporated the Dorje Shugden practice within the Tibetan exiled constitution as illegal. If any Tibetans are to practice, then they would be not allowed to use Tibetan institutions such as hospitals, schools, or even get their traveling documents. It is outright religious discrimination. Dalai Lama’s negative view on Dorje Shugden has had a adverse effect on millions which should be stopped now.
Meeting at the White House between President Obama and Dalai Lama on February 21, 2014.
What the Dalai Lama needs to understand is President Obama and all democratic leaders protect their citizens in their rights to free religious worship without discrimination, bias or prejudice. Whether the beliefs are deemed a religion or not does not concern democratic leaders because they respect the rights to worship as enshrined in the constitution.
A puzzling question this picture invites is the Dalai Lama had stated officially he has retired from politics, so why is he still involved with politics and politicians?
To protect millions from the Dalai Lama’s religious persecution the International Shugden Community began its campaign of demonstrations in San Francisco, CA (Saturday, February 22, 2014). They are peacefully requesting Dalai Lama to stop his persecution against Dorje Shugden practitioners and stop insulting their worship of Buddha Dorje Shugden as spirit worship. The Dalai Lama should respect other people’s practices and religious beliefs and their individual freedom to practice.
Location: (Louise M) Davies Symphony Hall
201 Van Ness Ave, San Francisco, CA 94102
Time: Demonstration starts at 12:30pm and will end around 5pm
Sunday, Feb 23
Berkeley
Berkeley Community Theater
7.30am – 11am
Monday, Feb 24
Santa Clara
Leavey Event Center, Santa Clara University
7am – 12noon
Tuesday, Feb 25th
Los Angeles
The Forum, Inglewood
11am – 2pm
The protesters represent millions around the world who asks Dalai Lama to stop the persecution against their worship of Dorje Shugden and allow full democratic rights within for these followers of Dorje Shugden within the Tibetan constitution. They are asking Dalai Lama to not persecute against them on the basis of their faith and open for dialogue. Protestors are asking the Dalai lama to accept and allow religious freedom and not condemn any form of worship including Dorje Shugden’s practice.
Video of the protest at San Francisco
Protestors for religious freedom in San Francisco
These peaceful protestors bravely represent the millions of Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world who are disappointed and hurt by the denouncements of their faith by Dalai Lama.
This man came from Japan to USA to join in the protests and has a few important questions for Dalai Lama.
Why did the Dalai Lama accept millions in donations from Shoko Asahara? Why does the Dalai Lama not aggressively speak out about the self-immolations in Tibet as he does against Dorje Shugden practitioners?
Dalai Lama and Shoko Asahara
Dalai Lama called Shoko Asahara his good friend. Shoko Asahara donated millions to the Dalai Lama and his causes. These are some of the questions the Japanese protestor had and the reason he came to protest. Why in the Dalai Lama’s omniscience did he befriend such a person who is incarcerated for hurting hundreds in Japan? Did Dalai Lama’s promotion of Shoko Asahara as a genuine teacher propelled him to fame in Japan allowing him to have the circumstances for the harm?
Ms. Rebecca Gautier
Ms. Rebecca Gautier who is the representative for the International Shugden Community. She spoke clearly and accurately for major news stations covering the event regarding the undemocratic suppression of religious freedom against Dorje Shugden practitioners in Tibet, India, Nepal and worldwide. Dorje Shugden practitioners are not allowed basic rights within the Tibetan exiled communities in India and Nepal simply because of their religious beliefs.
Further links and videos to help you understand the situation
National and local news
- http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=9441887
- http://www.prweb.com/releases/DalaiLama/ReligiousDiscrimination/prweb11592622.htm
- http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/02/prweb11609135.htm
- http://worldjournal.com/bookmark/24629634–
- http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/23/shugden-buddhist-faction-protests-dalai-lama-as-he-visits-san-francisco/
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5hCnq0fHQ
- http://www.facebook.com/dalailamatruth
- http://www.falsedalailama.com
- http://www.shargadenpa.org
- http://www.serpommonastery.org
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTAio7kr05I
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BheB_UwpGls
English
Indonesia
Tibetan
rossoneri
February 23, 2014
It is my first encounter to see that His Holiness The Dalai Lama in state of anger or perhaps very rude as a head of Buddhism he should be able to have much more compassion and controlled over his anger.
He should explain in a nicer manner and approach the situation with much delicate. But, the good news is more and more people realises whatever story or claims which he claims Dorje Shugden is, is in fact not true. We should be given a religious freedom to all and not saying one thing but do another. So, i am very delighted to see this and cannot wait the ban be lifted very soon.
Manjushri
February 23, 2014
Wow, His Holiness was pretty mad. Why lash out at a gentle nun, who’s only asking for religious freedom and their entitled right.
Funny how HHDL says that it is wrong because it is worship of spirit. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t Nechung a spirit too? The State Oracle, is an unenlightened spirit..so why is HHDL consulting Nechung for advise? That exact statement is a contradiction to what His Holiness is preaching too!
Anyways, how is Dorje Shugden not a matter regarding religion? If it is not religion, then why does the head religious figure of Tibetan Buddhism even impose the ban to begin with? If it is not religion, then why is HHDL so concerned about this issue? Another contradiction!
the emperor
February 23, 2014
The Dalai lama is showing his true colors. The wolf under the sheep skin. Terrifying
The emperor has no clothes!
The emperor has no clothes!
The emperor has no clothes!
Thomas
February 23, 2014
It seems the Dalai Lama is starting to ‘crack’ under the pressure of international scrutiny of his undemocratic policy against Dorje Shugden’s practice and followers. He thought it was like old Tibet where there will be no oppositions. But this is not the case. This important human rights issue goes beyond Tibetans because Tibetan Buddhism has grown into the millions among non-Tibetans and this ban affects them also. I am not a Tibetan following Tibetan Buddhism for over three decades and suddenly the man and leader (Dalai Lama) I support turns against the practices my teachers have passed to me. This is America and we are protected by the constitution. If the Dalai Lama is going to discriminate against any religions or forms of worship, please do not visit the US nor talk about open honest dialogue. The Tibetans should not immigrate to USA, Canada or any other democratic country and bring your backwards undemocratic methods of government here. The Tibetans should stop seeking help and financial assistance among freedom loving people if you are going to have unfair religious bans against your own people. We have enough problems and people in need in America without getting into Tibetan created dilemmas and politics. Tibetan religion is good, but not the politics and this unfair ban against Shugden.
Thomas Janghcup Choden
February 23, 2014
As a man of peace and dialogue, the Dalai Lama should not show so much anger. We are not Tibetans who are afraid of him or can be brow beaten into submission.
This Dorje Shugden ban-issue was created by the Dalai Lama and he can stop it immediately. He can easily have dialogue with Shugden people. Why not? The Chinese have done more damage in Tibet and he is willing to have dialogue with them so why not with Shugden practitioners who have done so much less ‘damage’ to anyone. Thomas Janghcup Choden
D. Bear
February 23, 2014
The fact that the original Bon Religion was an animist-shamanist religion is undisputed. What this means is that such a religion arises when people harbor fears, suspiciousness, and hope towards objects found in nature and start to worship them. The most important tenet in the Bon Religion was that everything had a spirit; they therefore worshipped the heaven, the earth, the sun, the moon, mountains, rivers, thunder, lightning, hail, fog, and even birds and animals. In other words there is no doubt it is spirit worship.
It is also fact that when Buddhism was introduced into Tibet, it entered a long period of fighting with the Bon Religion. According to the annals of the Tibetan history the Buddhadharma was met with resentment and resistance from the traditional Bon Religion. The intense and protracted rivalry between Tantrayana Buddhism and the Bon Religion lasted over two hundred years with many accounts of practitioners of Bon attempting to destroy what the Buddha taught. There are even records that anti-Buddhist Bon ministers claimed Shantarakshita, the Indian Buddhist sage had induced the wrath of the Bon-po gods and brought famine to Tibet. They succeeded in securing a temporary expulsion of Shantarakshita to Nepal. Padmasambhava himself had to fight many battles with Bon priests before Buddhism could thrive in Tibet.
During the reign of the enemy of Buddhism, King Langdharma there was another upsurge to revive Bon and eliminate Buddhism and the Dharma. Apart from the destruction of temples and monasteries and the burning of Buddhist books, high lamas were murdered, others expelled, and ordinary monks were forced to return to secular life. During this period of oppression of the Dharma in Tibet, all overt Buddhist activities were suppressed.
It is a historical fact that Buddhism and the Bon Religion were two irreconcilable rivals, and this has been recorded throughout the whole of Tibetan history. If ever there is a practice which is undoubtedly spirit worship, it is the Bon religion which is fair enough.
What is strange is that for all his apparent aversion to spirit worship which the Dalai Lama claims Dorje Shugden to be, which it has been proven factually not to be, in 1978 the Dalai Lama officially acknowledged the Bon religion as a school with its own practices after visiting the newly built Bon monastery in Dolanji. In other words the Dalai Lama officially accepted spirit worship.
This itself discredits the Dalai Lama’s stance on Shugden immediately.
Anyway I never thought I would see that see the day the ‘simple monk’ who has been preaching compassion and tolerance for decades, shout down a little gentle nun asking for the same rights to practice her belief as the Dalai Lama had granted Bonpos. Not so simple after all, nor indeed tolerant and compassionate.
Rihanna Chen
February 23, 2014
It saddens me to watch HHDL behaving in this manner. It is really shocking, coming from a spiritual leader whom I have held in highest esteem for so long.
It has only been two days since HHDL met with President Obama, the head of a country that promotes religious freedom as a core objective of U.S foreign policy. I wonder if these two leaders touched on any issues relating to freedom of religion or if President Obama share his thoughts on this issue with HHDL??
To illustrate how serious the US govt is on this issue, there is even a department in the US Govt called The Office of International Religious Freedom that monitors religious persecution and discrimination worldwide, recommend and implement policies in respective regions or countries, and develop programs to promote religious freedom. This is the extend the US govt is in their commitment to religious freedom.
I hope the meeting between these two leaders is not just another official ‘must do event’ but leads to what the the country stands for: to make it the inalienable right of every human being the freedom of religion of their choice.
dsfan
February 23, 2014
It is very rare that HHDL showed anger in public. He is a man of compassion and highly respected for promoting peace and non-violence. I wonder why he is so adamant and not wanting to lift the ban which is causing so much harm to DS practitioners. That doesn’t reflect on his campaign of peace and non-violence. It is the right of every individual to practice what they believe in and HHDL has no right to condemn and ban this practice.
To quote Ms. Rebecca Gautier, “This is definitely religious discrimination, discrimination at its worst”. In this age and time, it is shocking that religious discrimination is still happening and practitioners are deprived of human rights!!!!
laurelindorinan
February 23, 2014
THE VOICE OF THE DALAI LAMA
If I had to find some fictional character to illustrate what the word tyranny means. I would choose “Saruman the White”. Tolkien describes very precisely what kind of motivation lies behind this word.
Saruman is the chief of a saga of wizards in the novel. A priori, he is a positive character. Then later on he is tempted by the lust of power. In the novel we are told that first he studied the arts of the enemy to fight them, but eventually gave in to those same arts. Saruman is tempted by the ring of power, which can subdue the whole “Middle-earth”. Saruman wants all the power for himself and from that very moment begins the corruption of his mind. First, by betraying his own kind, remember when Gandalf visits him Saruman tempts him with the possibility to help him to get the ring of power and dominate in this way “Middle-earth”. Gandalf refuses of course and then Saruman make him his prisoner. After that Saruman mobilizes all his forces to get the ring of power. In order, to achieve this he lies, cheats, and manipulates his own people as a real tyrant. It is important to remember that he is a being with powers and uses them to achieve his own distorted purposes. You only need to read the chapter “The voice of Saruman” to realize how he is able to manipulate and confuse people only with the friendly and seductive tone of his speech. Recall that in this chapter Saruman has already been defeated and cornered in his tower, but still he has the power of his voice that like the song of the sirens may tempt the unwary sailor. Luckily there is Gandalf to dismount all his lies.
Tolkien makes an excellent analysis of this character in this chapter.It is so good that one fear that Saruman will convince everyone of his goodness. It requires all the skill and integrity of Gandalf to defeat him.
This is a magnificent work to analyse power and its manipulations, how power changes the mind and the dangers of being tempted by power.
Unfortunately, it is not very difficult to find in this world examples that fit perfectly with Tolkien’s descriptions of Saruman. I think that the most remarkable is that of the Dalai Lama as a symbol of Buddhism worldwide, Nobel peace prize, supported by Hollywood and the media, as well as being the representative in this world of the words tolerance, compassion and goodness, actually he has deceive the whole world. The Dalai Lama voice resembles that of Saruman. His words in the west are cordial and tolerant but what really lies behind his seductive voice is the word tyranny. Tyranny towards his own people as religious discrimination (chasing mercilessly Dorje Shugden practitioners)
Since the Dalai Lama arrived to India his real motivation has been to destroy the four traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, thus creating a new tradition of which he would be the head. Then he would be the absolute leader of his people, political, material and spiritual. Is not this a description of absolutism?
Finally, I would only make a recommendation to all those under the influence of the Dalai Lama, check what is behind the voice of “HH” the Dalai Lama because his music although seductive resembles that of its counterpart in fiction.
Danielle
February 23, 2014
The Tibetans practise a paganistic religion called Bon. Why is it that HHDL, who is so against worshiping spirits, not ban this religion? They worship an entire pantheon of spirits. Isn’t it more worrying?
In the USA, there are many people who worship the Satan. But the Government of the United States does not interfere because everyone is given the freedom to choose their religion. This is basic human rights in all democratic communities and countries.
Since HHDL is the advocate of human rights, it doesn’t make sense for him to ban the practice of any religion or worship, in this case the practice of Dorje Shugden, as it contradicts basic human rights.
For HHDL to garner support from democratic countries like the United States, it is important that he doesn’t ostracize people from their religious practice. This bad publicity is the last thing that the Tibetan govt wants as it makes them look hypocritical.
If the Tibetan govt wants to be more effective in getting international support for their cause, they should stop the ban immediately as millions of Dorje Shugden practitioners will continue to fight for religious freedom. This wrongful act from HHDL and Tibetan Govt will create more and more doubts from people around the world of their credibility.
An American Buddhist
February 23, 2014
United States security personnel flanking the very person who has been committing religious persecutions and human rights abuse around the world, giving him protection and shielding him from a sole and harmless nun seeking the rights to practice her faith, is not a very good look for the Obama Administration. If President Obama insists on turning a blind eye to the crimes of the Dalai Lama against humanity and instead continues to support him with funds to persist in the persecution of innocent people, then the President is indeed a ready ally and a sponsor of such crimes.
Are there no more journalists in this home we call The Land Of The Free, with even basic research skills using this thing called Google Search, capable of telling facts about the Dalai Lama or even enquiring into the complains of so many peaceful Buddhists, and Americans at that?
tseegii
February 23, 2014
Why are you people judge, he is not for there to be judged. You guys blaming him for the idea of being peaceful, but being peaceful is depends on person, not by any religion or cult. After all he is a human being too. Care about him.
Thank you, peace
Lin Cassidy
February 23, 2014
@tseegii
You are correct we should show care and respect for HHDL however I think what essentially people are asking of his holiness is that:
In the modern world if you put yourself up as a spiritual / political head which his holiness is both.
In many places around the world…All leaders are expected to look after all their citizens or people they represent equally.
No amount of sweeping under the carpet or using misdirection by quoting that DS supporters are uneducated…chinese spies…terrorists…and the like…that they should be ostracized, demonized and have no access to education or health??
Where is the truth in this situation.
If you don’t believe that this is a basic human right that all countries in part agree / sign up to when they participate in organisations such as UN and other NGOs around the world.
If you do not think that little old Tibet or CTA supporters are allowed to operate under different rules than the rest of the world then be transparent and return funds that have supported Tibet pre/post 1959.
Why shouldn’t people in the west / outside of Tibet feel they should have answers to their questions? or accountability for where their tax dollars have been spent? all these years.
History, tells us that when there is a backlash for dollars spent with dictators no amount of hiding or not-answering issues can protect players in the murky waters of international geopolitics.
LC
Lin Cassidy
February 23, 2014
Also…Thank you Japanese supporter for protesting…in San Fran.
That is awesome, to the ISS and others thank you so much
For presenting our voice on the world stage.
Peacefully and with much power is what I took away from the videos and pictures.
Today the world is listening, watching.
I pray that there will be no where to hide
No where to sweep our issues under the carpet
No more smoke and mirrors or misdirection
All DS practitioners are united and One force
To bring an end to religious and human right persecution
In our communities around the world.
Thank you ISS and other DS supporters again for presenting our concerns directly. Lastly, Thank you Admin for a job well done!
_/I\_ LC
Benzadhara
February 23, 2014
The Dalai is caught between a rock and a hard place this time and he reacted to the peaceful nun angrily. This is another the face of the Dalai Lama that we have never seen. For a monk of the highest rank, he doesn’t seem to show compassion and more so does not have any logical respond to the nun’s protest. He doesn’t seem to get it that it is not about a “spirit” practice. It is about religious freedom. This proved that he is so distance from the reality of the world.
How can he claim to practice tolerance, love and compassion and urge others to practice the same when he seem to place his own ego above others?
Vivian Chin
February 23, 2014
It is strange that Dalai Lama has never provide a logical and convincing answer to this “Spirit” issue beside saying that it will harm his life and cause disturbances to the Tibetan community. Why is that no method to subdue this “Spirit”? Why is Dalai Lama who is protected by the 3 Jewels can be harm by this “Spirit”? That is no explaination beside his forceful approach…
Jade
February 24, 2014
My gosh, this is insane! How can anyone ban any religion, belief or worship? It’s totally against human rights constitution! In dorjeshugden.com I’m reading a lot about why His Holiness has ban this and what he is saying to justify the ban and how the ban has affected so many Tibetans! I am in shock! I thought Buddhism is love all sentient beings… I did not expect this to be happening within the Tibetans own
exile community!
All these protesters are asking and requesting is to stop the religious persecution of Dorje Shugden practice and lift the ridiculous ban so people can freely and openly practice with NO DISCRIMINATION. What’s so wrong about that? Tibetans can live in harmony and Tibetans who practice Dorje Shugden can go to school, hospitals and get social welfare just like non-Shugden people… is that so bad? They are just asking Tibetans to be nice to their own people
actually. What a shame this ban has created division and disunity. Really sad… I hope the ban gets lifted, because it is errmmm illegal and kind of puts the Dalai Lama in a dark lime light.
If we read carefully the constitution in the UN on Human Rights… everyone has the Right to Religious Freedom and it is define as:
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this
Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex,
language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social
origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction
shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or
international status of the country or territory to which a person
belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under
any other limitation of sovereignty.
So basically Dalai Lama has no right to impose a ban on any faith… whether spirit or not. That’s a poor excuse for causing suffering amongst Tibetans and others who chose to worship this deity Dorje Shuugden.
It is like saying I am imposing a ban on Hari Krishna because it is worshiping a “worldly” god, and because of this ban all Hari Krishnans are not allowed to mix with other non-Kari Krisnans, their children cannot go to the same school, they cannot receive medical attention and help, That is down right DISCRIMINATION at it’s worst kind that being done by a Buddhist monk!
Ashen
February 24, 2014
Despite his busy schedule, he still takes the time to advise these people. What amazing compassion . What great compassion.
Jennifer
February 24, 2014
No one is banning the Shugdens. I see them at their temple praying as usual. They can pray to their god anytime, anywhere. The DL just adivses them that it is not proper and it is they who are getting all hot under the collar.
twotruths
February 24, 2014
If you think HHDL is angry here, then you should also think Yamantaka is angry and losing his cool as well. And… you can even extend that to Dorje Shugden since he is so angry too and looses his cool towards those who pervert the Gelug linage.
Charles DeGalle
February 24, 2014
Shugden is not part of Buddhism. Gautama never even heard of this Tibetan deity. It is part of Tibetan animism and it is right that the DL asks them to cease. Will the Vatican allow catholics to pray to Prophet mohamad?
Jack Harness
February 24, 2014
@TT and friends,
Funny how we see you on this site whenever anything remotely negative towards HHDL is in the media?
Firstly,
1) DS practitioners in US, UK, Europe and other places can practice regardless of the ban.
2) DS practitioners in Tibetan communities do not have the same freedom to practice.
3) DS practitioners do not have access to medical care, education, work, shops in said Tibetan communities.
4) Carrying a card to show you are not a DS practitioner is no different to wearing a yellow star? or some other form of certified paper.
5) DS practitioners do not have the same rights to securing travel documents from Tibet or from Tibetan settlements?
6) Persons pro HHDL use the ban as a License to do harm to DS practitioners…justify their actions however bad as having no karmic repercussions.
How is that right?
JH
Jack Harness
February 24, 2014
@CDG
What exactly are you trying to say that Dharma can come in only one form Buddhas own words? His sutras and not tantra?
On that logic The Buddha should not have taught his other 83,999 teachings only one teaching for all minds?
Buddha actually taught sutra and tantra, and to specific students of all levels and abilities or forms to receive dharma.
Excuse me but are you saying the pope is HH and DS practitioners are wanting to convert to Islam?
In a modern world which we belong this is more than acceptable to find any faith that you think best fits your disposition?
That is called freedom of choice, constitutional right or your human right a basic freedom.
If you wish to debate fine, bring another point of view, is great but to use emotive language?
To create discord or confusion on issues that have been pretty clear if you had visited this site over a period of time would come to understand and know.
DS.COM respects HHDL but we follow our DS lineage due to the kindness of our own Gurus who we have a dharma relationship.
What we do not support is actions that create harm to others in the name of HHDL.
That IMHO is no different to people in the UK protesting about the war in Iraq?
(DS practitioners certainly have the right to protest even if from the point of view of human rights & religious freedoms).
JH
Fanatica Mtsui
February 25, 2014
I’m very surprised to see Dalai Lama’s reaction in the video. It is not what we normally get to see. What makes him reacted in such a way? Perhaps the question brought forward by the nun contradicts the content of the meeting Dalai Lama had with President Obama.
Dalai Lama promotes religion freedom and inter-faith dialogue. He has been promoting compassion and human rights. All these are not supporting his ban of the Dorje Shugden practice.
I’m unsure how long Dalai Lama wish to continue to ban the Dorje Shugden practice, but how many people will continue to believe it?
Sandra
February 25, 2014
The simple reason for Dalai Lama to impose the ban openly is because Dorje Shudgen practice is not a religion but worship to spirit. I find it very funny is why Dalai Lama only openly impose the ban on Dorje Shudgen but not to other spirit. I believe a lot of people worship spirit because lack of knowledge and can not differentiate what is religion and spirit. Why Dalai Lama never said anything about that? Why only have prejudice against Dorje Shudgen? The ban has caused a lot of sufferings to the practitioners. The ban should be removed to create a harmony society.
Octar F
February 25, 2014
Calling somebody a liar by repeating “Stop lying” isn’t peaceful.
logical reasoning
February 25, 2014
@two truths LOGICAL REASONING
SYLLOGISM: Whenever we realize something by means of a conclusive reason we use a special form of logical reasoning known as a syllogism. A syllogism has three parts: subject, predicate and a reason. The combination of the subject and the predicate is called “probandum” in the example below the “probandum” is “The Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara” and is this we realize in dependence upon the reason. A conclusive reason is a reason that is able to establish a probandum incontrovertibly.
The definition of a conclusive reason is a reason that is qualified by the three modes. The three modes are: the property of the subject, the forward pervasion, and the reverse pervasion; and any conclusive reason will be qualified by all three. We can understand these three modes by considering the syllogism stated below:
The Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara because all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion.
The first mode is called the property of the subject because for a reason to be conclusive it must apply to, or be a property of the subject. In this case, the reason is a property of the subject because all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion (reason) refers to The Dalai Lama (subject). The second mode is called the “forward pervasion “because for a reason to be a conclusive reason it must be pervaded by the predicate. In this case, the reason is qualified by the second mode because if all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion (reason) cannot be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara (predicate). The third mode is called the “reverse pervasion” because if the predicate does not apply the reason must also not apply. In this case, the reason is qualified by the third mode because if he was an emanation of Avalokiteshvara all his actions would correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion. If a reason lacks any of the three modes it is not a conclusive reason.
In this case the reason is qualified by the three modes and we can say that it is a syllogism based on a conclusive reason. Maybe sometimes we are not sure about one of the parts of the syllogism, then we have to state another one per example maybe you are not sure about the reason established here ,that is, all his actions does not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion. Then we can establish another syllogism to prove the reason:
All Dalai Lama actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion because he did not condemn Iraq war; he has brought enormous suffering to many people by banning Dorje Shugden practice and he does not recognize his Spiritual Guide.
Recall that even Avalokiteshvara is an enlightened being he has his Spiritual Guide at his crown (Buddha Amithaba) out of respect.
For the rest you already know how to check if this is a syllogism based on a valid reason.
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-expelling-monks/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/speeches-enforcing-the-ban/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-iraq-war/
DB
February 25, 2014
Clearly the Dalai Lama let his well rehearsed demeanor slip. It really does the Dalai Lama no good to have lost his cool in public, especially when he has been trading on his image of a simple, gentle and peace-loving monk who trotted the world preaching religious tolerance. I am certain the Dalai Lama is aware of this and indeed we have never seen such aggressive posturing before in public (except to his own Tibetan people whom he lords over).
Over these recent years, calls for the Dalai Lama to justify his ban of the Dorje Shugden practice have become louder and yet he has yet to rise to meet this challenge simply because there are no genuine reasons. Imagine this – someone who is supposed to be the consummate expert in Buddhism cannot draw from over 2600 years of Buddhist history and teachings to legitimize his persecution of his own people. Whatever falsehood that he had conjured and twisted to support his claim have all been easily refuted. If there were any genuine scriptural basis to brace the Dalai Lama’s many and varied accusations of the Shugden practice as being unholy and damaging, the controversy would have stopped in 1996 itself when the ban was instituted. Which Tibetan Buddhist monk or lay practitioner in his right mind would wish to oppose the Dalai Lama unless such a dangerous and unpopular stance was indeed more in accord with preserving the Buddha’s teachings.
I guess, in realizing that his mask is slipping and the charade might soon be over, the Dalai Lama did what any panicking menace under pressure would – he attacked, seeing that it was the only form of defense available. Such hostility towards a nun at this time, and in public view of citizens of a country known to treasure freedom of expression, is sure evidence that the Dalai Lama is feeling that his credibility is now under serious threat. Threat from what? From the truth.
It is one thing to force an illegal ban down the throats of a small population of nation-less Tibetans in 1996 who could do little to defend themselves, and it is quite another to force the same lie down the throats of the world public after Buddhist practitioners and scholars around the world have had almost 18 years of study and research to confirm the Dalai Lama’s deceit.
BK
February 26, 2014
His Holiness has been clarifying & explaining the actual statue of ‘Dorje Shugden’ for around 20 years…His Holiness also stated clear that people worship whatever they want, that’s their freedom of spiritual quest… But he is not associate with ‘Dorje Shugden’ & its practice. Don’t understand why there are still monks, nuns & laymen specially in the U.S. still insisting on worshiping ‘Dorje Shugden’ as authentic Buddhism when it isn’t in reality!
Which reminds me the perdition of Guru Rinpoche – “when the iron eagle roars in the sky, Buddhism will be transmitted into the West…also it will be the beginning of the degeneration of Buddhism”! Calling your authentic lineage teacher a liar in public with such a false allegation…makes no differences than the ugly propaganda of character assassination made up by the communist China for the past six decades! I wonder what is the actual purpose of these nuns & monks…
Btw, the nun wasn’t calm, please listen carefully her shaky voice, she was just being passive-aggressive!
Liam
February 26, 2014
That was the Dalai Lama getting angry? Holy, if anyone thinks that he was angry here I guess they have never seen a person getting angry. He hardly even raised his voice. She just kept saying “stop lying”, whats the point? He is a religious leader, which means he believes certain things based on faith, no reason needed, right? If he doesn’t think the Dorje Shugden should be practiced, whats the big deal? As with all religion, stupid things like this lead to people getting killed. Both sides are at fault, it is foolish.
Emma
February 27, 2014
So the Dalai Lama manifested wrath to that gentle nun requesting for religious freedom. It is in a million chance to witness this wrath. The more Dalai Lama suppress Dorje Shugden, the more publicity is on this Great Protector making him widely spread all around the world; making him famous and planting karmic imprints. It has never in history before that a Buddhist Deity has this kind of wide media coverage and in all the major medias. Thanks to the Dalai Lama and the International Shugden Group!
When religion and politics are joined to the hip, it will cause the practice to spread like wild fire. This is the beginning of the DORJE SHUGDEN Renaissance.
Regmund
February 27, 2014
Dear Liam,
You are of course right that everyone has a right to believe what they want. The ‘big deal’ is that the Dalai Lama has not seen it wrong and illegal to forcibly impose his views on others and to punish anyone he could for not agreeing with him. If that is not a big deal, then neither should Hitler’s view be, that all Jews should be wiped out from the face of the earth. What’s the big deal right? That was just one German’s view.
In addition, what about the beliefs of other equally high (if not higher) Tibetan religious leaders e.g. who see Shugden as a Buddha, such as the Dalai Lama’s tutors, a whole host of lineage Masters including the Panchen Lamas? Do they views count?
As for the point of the nun repeating ‘stop lying’, the simple fact is that the Dalai Lama IS lying. Religious beliefs aside, the Dalai Lama lied that there is even a ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden when in fact it has gone beyond a simple ban. The Dalai Lama caused the Constitution of the Tibetans (in exile) to be changed to read that no one of a particular faith (Shugden) should ever sit on the legislature or judiciary of the Tibetan government.
The Dalai Lama lied about the true nature of Shugden. He, after all, personally worshipped Dorje Shugden and even wrote a praise to the deity but now worshippers of the Buddha stands in the way of his political ambitions.
In most of the countries where people are reading this post, you impeach Presidents for ‘lying’ about their person life e.g. affairs they may or may not have had. You incarcerate leaders for misleading the public. You would go to war to defend your rights to live as free people and practice whatever beliefs you like, including satan worship. You drop bombs on countries that you perceive as threats to your freedom.
And yet here we ask, what’s the ‘big deal’? Bring me people like Hitler anytime. At least that is an ‘honest’ enemy.
Amy
February 27, 2014
I watched the video several times and paid attention to every detail and I tried to keep an open, unbiased mind. After accessing the situation, based on the footage, I have to say that the Dalai Lama does not really seem that angry to me and I know that many of you won’t agree with me, but that is my honest opinion. First of all, I don’t see aggression or hostility in his body language. He does not look like he wants to strike her and he does not have an aggressive stance. He looks more like a father scolding a child, rather than someone who is truly angry and full of hatred. He is not moving his hands in an angry sort of way, although it might look that way to people who haven’t seen the Dalai Lama often enough to realize that these gestures, (such as pointing his finger and moving his hands around), is the way he ALWAYS gestures when he is making any sort of point and feeling passionate about it. Those gestures have nothing to do with anger. It is just the way he moves his hands whenever he is explaining something. He does it during interviews and teachings too. Some people may see this and feel that he is angry, but he is not. Watch any interview with the Dalai Lama, (where he is not angry at all), and you will see the exact same hand gestures, especially when he is talking about anything he feels strongly about, including topics which have nothing to do with this controversy.
As for the way he raises his voice, consider the circumstances. First of all, at the beginning of the video, we hear the tail end of him being reasonable and trying to explain things to the nun in a calm manner. You can hear that his voice is not angry in any way and he just sounds like he just got done trying to explain it. The video turns on just as he is finishing what he is trying to say. He starts to walk away and then the nun tells him to “stop lying”, which is very rude, IMO. He turns around and comes back to make his speech and he is clearly upset, (although I wouldn’t say he’s angry). On the other hand, I *would* be angry if I tried to explain something and then I hear that person accusing me of being a liar as I am walking away, so even if he was momentarily angry, I can’t say I entirely blame him. But I would say he is more exasperated and perhaps a little scolding, rather than actually mad at her. As he speaks, she does not let him get a word in edgewise, so he raises his voice to be heard. I would do that too if the person I am talking to isn’t listening. She is not talking, she is babbling, (in an irrational manner), about human rights right over what he’s saying and she is interrupting and refusing to have a civil discussion. I think she is acting much ruder than he is and her behavior is unacceptable. She is being impolite and talking over the Dalai Lama, rather than letting him make his point and THEN having her say in response. I’m not saying she shouldn’t make a point, or try to have a dialogue about human rights concerns, but she should give him a chance to speak. In the end, he walks off because he has given up trying to reason with someone who is totally not listening. He is very exasperated, but I don’t think he is actually mad at her. I think he is just frustrated and she is actually the one who is angry. You can hear anger in her voice and her voice shakes with rage as she tells him to stop lying. She may have a very quiet, soft voice, but I hear a lot of anger in her tone.
Regmund
February 27, 2014
Dear Amy,
Thank your analysis of the situation per your understanding of what is going on. But it would do your intelligence no justice to make a judgment without knowing important facts and the background leading to the events as played out in the video. Please be properly acquainted with facts by reading ANY of the stories on this site which you can then check with independent reports such as Al Jazeera. Here is a short and interesting one:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/religious-apartheid-in-tibetan-communities/
The fact is, Shugden worshippers have tried for over a decade to seek clarification from the Dalai Lama about his ban of their religion and to engage the Tibetan government in exile in same. But their pleas have gone totally ignored because it would appear that the Dalai Lama’s thought is, why explain when you can just bully and force people against their will? As for the nun being ‘angry’, I think you should salute her patience because if anyone were to tell you that your religion is demonic and that you should stop otherwise you will be persecuted, I am sure you would be livid.
What I am totally amazed at, is how people would just refuse to investigate the matter properly, look at the copious amount of material on the subject available online and from so many different sources, think logically about what is really happening, before making silly uninformed statements?
Even if you do not appreciate ANY of the materials in this site, you cannot deny that there is a ban on a religion. How on earth do you justify persecuting a person based on his religious beliefs, instigating violence to be inflicted on practitioners of that faith, and shutting them out from their community in such a way that they cannot function? Even being seen with a Shugden worshipper is deemed illegal as the internationally acclaimed writer Jamyang Norbu discovered. He is NOT a Shugden practitioner and therefore his views are not tainted by any self interest. (http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2013/05/07/highest-peaks-to-lowest-gutters/)
How can anyone not look at the facts? The Dalai Lama has made fools out of so many well-intentioned people.
Mary
February 27, 2014
As I see it on the video replay many times over, the nun is indeed calm, gentle and patient. Her voice to the Dalai Lama is placid and stable but broken into by an irritable voice of the Dalai Lama saying DS worship is not a religion and he knows the teaching. I find it weird the Dalai Lama saying this and he is the only one saying this – but all his GURUs also know the teaching very well and comes from an unbroken and authentic lineage of Great Masters. Who is the Dalai Lama trying to challenge?
The Dalai Lama must know that religion is not defined by Tibetan masters but is defined by the UN CHARTER that any form of worship is to be respected and this goes to all democratic countries. Haven’t Tibetans celebrated a democratic administrative governance and call themselves democrats? Doesn’t this contravene and violate its own constitution?
Isn’t this all so ridiculous?
Denise Gangnier
February 27, 2014
What a shame this misunderstanding and the disrespect to the compassionate Buddha. There is no seperation in awakened beings . My God cells are the same divine essence as yours !!! This was very disrespectful to a very noble Being who has kept not easily the path open for humanity for centuries!!! It is a reflection of our own discriminating beliefs not the Dalai Lama*s he was just addressing an accusation that was not his and clearly misunderstood. How dare you judge him or his linage and extort it , what a shame to do that. There are many levels of awakening and Buddhism is not a religion it is a culture with the practice to awakening via meditation to live from our heart . Buddhism the path is for all sentient being there is not seperation in that no religion no labelling it is far beyong this 3 demensional reality . His holiness is about unity , love and noble truths. Please respect him regardless how you interpret what you know not of . Please forgive them father they know not what they do. Blessings and gratitude to the Delia Lama
Amy
February 28, 2014
Dear Regmund,
Actually, I have read and researched this subject in the past. I read the Jamyang Norbu article before and I have also looked at many articles on your site, so I am not so ignorant about this situation. I have also looked at the other side as well. If the New Kadampa Tradition turned up evidence of human rights abuse against them, which could be supported and documented by independent human rights groups, I would be willing to take a second look. (Didn’t Amnesty International drop this case, based on *lack* of evidence way back in 1998, or around that time?) It seems that every time NKT tries to take their case to human rights groups around the world, as well as to the Indian government, the case is dropped. Why is that?
My point was not that there shouldn’t be a discussion about this issue. I was merely pointing out that the Dalai Lama was not angry in this video, (in my opinion). The point of posting this video was to show that the Dalai Lama “lost his cool” and got angry at a “gentle” nun. Yet after watching it, I get the impression that the nun is irrational, rude and passive aggressive, even if she has a quiet voice. Speaking softly does not hide the fact that she is angry and full of negativity. She does not make a good impression for the New Kadampa Tradition, or give it credibility. She is not a good representative for this movement.
If the NKT people want to negotiate with the Dalai Lama, that’s fine and I think there should be some sort of official dialogue about this, if only to resolve the situation once and for all. But if those who are trying to make their case are just going to babble and refuse to have a civilized discussion with him about it, then how can there be a dialogue? If this nun is an example of how NKT people want to negotiate, then it’s no wonder that the Dalai Lama can’t talk to them.
Bonpo
February 28, 2014
D Bear, your statements are far from “undisputed” they are actual incorrect.
There are “Nine ways” of Bon and some seem to the outward observer as shamanistic but are not at all animistic. These are the ritualistic practices to communicate with spirit worlds not worship them. Teaching in a Hell realm is not worshipping hell beings.
On the other side Bon is the source of Dzogchen.
Please do not perpetuate the false belief of the evil of Bon.
D Bear
February 28, 2014
Dear Bonpo,
I fully accept your statement and I am not going to argue what Bon is or isn’t. No disrespect was meant and it would not be right of anyone to unilaterally decide that what someone else regards as a religion is in fact demonic.
Perhaps you can understand the situation faced by Shugden practitioners? That would be similar to me now insisting that Bon is indeed spirit worship and pull various information from the net to support my case. The fact is people should be free to practice what they wish especially when there is conclusive evidence to show Dorje Shugden to be an enlightened being.
Monica
February 28, 2014
I’m sorry but I think you guys are getting quite distracted by this video. You haven’t got access to the entire clip. It has been edited to only include the Dalai Lama’s insistence (not anger), about his disagreement of something. He says ” I know Lama Tsongkapa’s teachings. This is not a religion”… He is not saying DS is not a religion, he is saying LT’s teaching do not equate to a religion.
Also as the video is edited, we cannot see what has happened before that has made the Dalai Lama react this way. You (who have posted the video) have made out that the Dalai Lama is getting “angry” at a humble and sincere nun, but this is completely a misuse of an edited video.
I’m pretty appalled that you have done this. You also incite that the Dalai Lama’s actions have created religious hatred and violence… again this is nonsense. He has not advocated violence or anything else… those people who have gone out to violently attack Dorje Shugden are doing it off their own back, with their own intentions and with their own steam.
I think you are intentionally misleading others and inciting hatred, anger and intolerance. This is incredibly sensitive ground you have tread on, on you have treaded on it hard.
sky
February 28, 2014
seems that the issue being presented for religious freedom is clouded, in my opinion– buy her confrontational stance–who usually addresses someone they are trying to get support from, by starting out with “you must stop lying”,- looks like his holiness is reacting to a verbally aggressive confront… one can’t be heard if they are accusing…
Anonymous
February 28, 2014
She began by calling him a liar!! How direspectfull
Jangchup Choeden
February 28, 2014
Dear friends,
Please consider these points:
1. The Chinese government having been labelling the Dalai Lama with all types of vulgarities and accusations for the last 50 years. Yet he says he forgives them, shows them patience and sends them love. Well why not practice the same thing towards this ‘rude’ nun? How can one nun destabilize the Dalai Lama of peace and love? The Chinese have killed thousands of Dalai Lama’s countrymen and burned many monasteries to the ground, yet he has nothing harsh to say about them? Why not? But why so angry toward this nun? Was being kind to the Chinese government a marketing stunt?
2. The nun is an ordinary person with desires, anger, misunderstanding as well as kindness, care and resilience. But the Dalai Lama is the emanation of Chenresig (Avalokitesvara-Buddha of Compassion). Should the emanation of the Buddha of compassion be kind to all, even those who are ‘rude’ to him? You can’t expect much from the nun. But we expect a lot more from the Dalai Lama.
3. All letters and requests for the last 15 years from various Shugden groups around the world for dialogue with Dalai Lama has been refused. No peaceful logical dialogue is allowed to Shugden people and this issue that affects millions. But how come dialogue is allowed to the Chinese who have one infinitely more ‘harm’ to Dalai Lama and Tibetans?
Dalai Lama has been caught on film very angry and lost his patience. He should engage the name with love and talk not point at her and scold her with his Shugden ‘logic’. What else is the nun to say when he shows so much anger and so many people around the nun against her? It should not matter how she acts towards him because the Dalai Lama is the head of Buddhism of Tibet which stresses compassion, patience, tolerance and forgiveness. What happened to the emanation of Chenresig?
Dalai Lama has meditated for so many years. Much more than the nun. Where is the results. Just because the nun says he is a liar, should Dalai Lama get so angry? Is this the product of compassion mediation?
Dalai Lama should keep his cool at all times even in the face of adversity because his celebrity status, sponsorship and support is based on the fact he is a man of peace. He is a man of patience and compassion which he lost when approached by this nun.
Traveler
February 28, 2014
I think he had blood lust in him. The guy gets scarier by the day.
Amy
February 28, 2014
Jangchup Choeden,
Your points would be very well taken IF the Dalai Lama was actually angry at her. I don’t think he was angry at all. He was upset *at the situation* and frustrated, but I don’t think he was hateful. The pointing of his finger is something he always does when making a strong point. (Watch any interview with him and you will see these gestures whenever he says something passionate.) His voice was raised because he was trying to stress his point and she was interrupting. He wasn’t really shouting, but just trying to be heard above all the talking, (if you can call it talking). IF he had been really angry, then I would agree with everything you said about the nun deserving the same love and compassion as the Chinese leadership, etc. One can be frustrated without feeling angry or hateful toward someone. I just don’t see any of those things in his behavior or gestures.
Amy
February 28, 2014
Just a follow up. The Dalai Lama is also human. He has often admitted that he loses his temper sometimes, (although it doesn’t last long), so even on the slim chance that he was really angry at her for a moment, I don’t think he would hold onto that anger. He would most likely forgive her and do Vajrasattva purification when he calms down. But I still say that I don’t see any real anger here. Frustration and firmness, yes.
Disturbed
February 28, 2014
In public the Dalai Lama has always stood for religious
tolerance:
1. While the Dalai Lama said that the purpose of different religions is to create tolerance, forgiveness and patience, it is individual and group action that will eventually cause the manifestation of peace.
“I carry my life honestly, compassionately and the world order is becoming much more spiritual, isn’t it? That’s my view,” he told the audience.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=8257427
2. How can we promote tolerance and respect towards other religions and ethnic minorities, Your Holiness?
I always mention that the concept of one single truth and one religion is itself a contradiction.
But on the level of the individual it is very relevant and can be very helpful. You should keep a single-pointed faith for yourself.
In the reality of different communities and religions with so many people the concept of only one religion is irrelevant.
In reality we have different religions and a concept of one truth seems irrelevant to me.
From the personal point of view everything is relative and one truth for a single person is relevant.
But when you have many people with different values and backgrounds this concept is not convincing as there are many truths and religions – and this is good so.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/mobile/2011/10/10/dalai-lama-interview-tolerance-57764
3. The Nobel Peace Prize winner said that the era of “one truth, one religion” was reserved for ancient times in which many of the world’s religions were founded. But not today.
The Dalai Lama said all believers need to learn understanding for other faiths — particularly for Islam, because, he noted, oil from the Middle East fuels economies around the world.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-Dalai-Lama-embraces-religious-2537366.php
And there are many more examples and quotes by the Dalai Lama to suggest that His Holiness is an advocate of tolerance and peace. And yet his much-preached tolerance does seem to be absent when it comes to this particular Buddhist sect.
Whether the Shugden deity is a legitimate god as its adherents believe, or a spirit as His Holiness seems to suggest, this whole debacle could have been avoided if His Holiness had been honest and true to his own advice. I find this inconsistency to be disturbing.
Jack
February 28, 2014
@Amy: you seemed more caught up in a discussion of whether the Dalai was actually angry. Who cares? Fact is he got caught out for abusing his position and mis-using an entire state machinery to force his view on people who should be free to practice what they like.
Suzie
February 28, 2014
@Jack: Yes Jack you said it right and said it well! The bottom line is why create so much suffering on millions by imposing the ban? Why deny your own country men basic human rights to medical care, education and the like? Why incite violence to the followers to create harm and injury including life threats? Why create such division among the community? The Dalai Lama has the power to lift the ban and stop all these negative action and make peace. The Dalai Lama is the peace icon of the world, befitting of this positive, compassionate and loving action.
Neil Macdonald
March 1, 2014
The nun clearly says to the Dalai Lama “you must stop lying” repeatedly which is not peaceful, it is provocative. You have also exaggerated the Dalai Lama’s response which doesn’t seem particularly aggressive or disrespectful to the nun considering what she is saying to him. Be moderate for goodness sake.