Dalai Lama angrily replies to peaceful nun

It is my first encounter to see that His Holiness The Dalai Lama in state of anger or perhaps very rude as a head of Buddhism he should be able to have much more compassion and controlled over his anger.

He should explain in a nicer manner and approach the situation with much delicate. But, the good news is more and more people realises whatever story or claims which he claims Dorje Shugden is, is in fact not true. We should be given a religious freedom to all and not saying one thing but do another. So, i am very delighted to see this and cannot wait the ban be lifted very soon.

The Dalai lama is showing his true colors. The wolf under the sheep skin. Terrifying

The emperor has no clothes!
The emperor has no clothes!
The emperor has no clothes!

As a man of peace and dialogue, the Dalai Lama should not show so much anger. We are not Tibetans who are afraid of him or can be brow beaten into submission.

This Dorje Shugden ban-issue was created by the Dalai Lama and he can stop it immediately. He can easily have dialogue with Shugden people. Why not? The Chinese have done more damage in Tibet and he is willing to have dialogue with them so why not with Shugden practitioners who have done so much less ‘damage’ to anyone. Thomas Janghcup Choden

It saddens me to watch HHDL behaving in this manner. It is really shocking, coming from a spiritual leader whom I have held in highest esteem for so long.

It has only been two days since HHDL met with President Obama, the head of a country that promotes religious freedom as a core objective of U.S foreign policy. I wonder if these two leaders touched on any issues relating to freedom of religion or if President Obama share his thoughts on this issue with HHDL??

To illustrate how serious the US govt is on this issue, there is even a department in the US Govt called The Office of International Religious Freedom that monitors religious persecution and discrimination worldwide, recommend and implement policies in respective regions or countries, and develop programs to promote religious freedom. This is the extend the US govt is in their commitment to religious freedom.

I hope the meeting between these two leaders is not just another official ‘must do event’ but leads to what the the country stands for: to make it the inalienable right of every human being the freedom of religion of their choice.

THE VOICE OF THE DALAI LAMA
If I had to find some fictional character to illustrate what the word tyranny means. I would choose “Saruman the White”. Tolkien describes very precisely what kind of motivation lies behind this word.
Saruman is the chief of a saga of wizards in the novel. A priori, he is a positive character. Then later on he is tempted by the lust of power. In the novel we are told that first he studied the arts of the enemy to fight them, but eventually gave in to those same arts. Saruman is tempted by the ring of power, which can subdue the whole “Middle-earth”. Saruman wants all the power for himself and from that very moment begins the corruption of his mind. First, by betraying his own kind, remember when Gandalf visits him Saruman tempts him with the possibility to help him to get the ring of power and dominate in this way “Middle-earth”. Gandalf refuses of course and then Saruman make him his prisoner. After that Saruman mobilizes all his forces to get the ring of power. In order, to achieve this he lies, cheats, and manipulates his own people as a real tyrant. It is important to remember that he is a being with powers and uses them to achieve his own distorted purposes. You only need to read the chapter “The voice of Saruman” to realize how he is able to manipulate and confuse people only with the friendly and seductive tone of his speech. Recall that in this chapter Saruman has already been defeated and cornered in his tower, but still he has the power of his voice that like the song of the sirens may tempt the unwary sailor. Luckily there is Gandalf to dismount all his lies.
Tolkien makes an excellent analysis of this character in this chapter.It is so good that one fear that Saruman will convince everyone of his goodness. It requires all the skill and integrity of Gandalf to defeat him.
This is a magnificent work to analyse power and its manipulations, how power changes the mind and the dangers of being tempted by power.
Unfortunately, it is not very difficult to find in this world examples that fit perfectly with Tolkien’s descriptions of Saruman. I think that the most remarkable is that of the Dalai Lama as a symbol of Buddhism worldwide, Nobel peace prize, supported by Hollywood and the media, as well as being the representative in this world of the words tolerance, compassion and goodness, actually he has deceive the whole world. The Dalai Lama voice resembles that of Saruman. His words in the west are cordial and tolerant but what really lies behind his seductive voice is the word tyranny. Tyranny towards his own people as religious discrimination (chasing mercilessly Dorje Shugden practitioners)
Since the Dalai Lama arrived to India his real motivation has been to destroy the four traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, thus creating a new tradition of which he would be the head. Then he would be the absolute leader of his people, political, material and spiritual. Is not this a description of absolutism?
Finally, I would only make a recommendation to all those under the influence of the Dalai Lama, check what is behind the voice of “HH” the Dalai Lama because his music although seductive resembles that of its counterpart in fiction.

United States security personnel flanking the very person who has been committing religious persecutions and human rights abuse around the world, giving him protection and shielding him from a sole and harmless nun seeking the rights to practice her faith, is not a very good look for the Obama Administration. If President Obama insists on turning a blind eye to the crimes of the Dalai Lama against humanity and instead continues to support him with funds to persist in the persecution of innocent people, then the President is indeed a ready ally and a sponsor of such crimes.

Are there no more journalists in this home we call The Land Of The Free, with even basic research skills using this thing called Google Search, capable of telling facts about the Dalai Lama or even enquiring into the complains of so many peaceful Buddhists, and Americans at that?

@tseegii

You are correct we should show care and respect for HHDL however I think what essentially people are asking of his holiness is that:

In the modern world if you put yourself up as a spiritual / political head which his holiness is both.

In many places around the world…All leaders are expected to look after all their citizens or people they represent equally.

No amount of sweeping under the carpet or using misdirection by quoting that DS supporters are uneducated…chinese spies…terrorists…and the like…that they should be ostracized, demonized and have no access to education or health??

Where is the truth in this situation.

If you don’t believe that this is a basic human right that all countries in part agree / sign up to when they participate in organisations such as UN and other NGOs around the world.

If you do not think that little old Tibet or CTA supporters are allowed to operate under different rules than the rest of the world then be transparent and return funds that have supported Tibet pre/post 1959.

Why shouldn’t people in the west / outside of Tibet feel they should have answers to their questions? or accountability for where their tax dollars have been spent? all these years.

History, tells us that when there is a backlash for dollars spent with dictators no amount of hiding or not-answering issues can protect players in the murky waters of international geopolitics.

LC

The Dalai is caught between a rock and a hard place this time and he reacted to the peaceful nun angrily. This is another the face of the Dalai Lama that we have never seen. For a monk of the highest rank, he doesn’t seem to show compassion and more so does not have any logical respond to the nun’s protest. He doesn’t seem to get it that it is not about a “spirit” practice. It is about religious freedom. This proved that he is so distance from the reality of the world.
How can he claim to practice tolerance, love and compassion and urge others to practice the same when he seem to place his own ego above others?

My gosh, this is insane! How can anyone ban any religion, belief or worship? It’s totally against human rights constitution! In dorjeshugden.com I’m reading a lot about why His Holiness has ban this and what he is saying to justify the ban and how the ban has affected so many Tibetans! I am in shock! I thought Buddhism is love all sentient beings… I did not expect this to be happening within the Tibetans own
exile community!

All these protesters are asking and requesting is to stop the religious persecution of Dorje Shugden practice and lift the ridiculous ban so people can freely and openly practice with NO DISCRIMINATION. What’s so wrong about that? Tibetans can live in harmony and Tibetans who practice Dorje Shugden can go to school, hospitals and get social welfare just like non-Shugden people… is that so bad? They are just asking Tibetans to be nice to their own people
actually. What a shame this ban has created division and disunity. Really sad… I hope the ban gets lifted, because it is errmmm illegal and kind of puts the Dalai Lama in a dark lime light.

If we read carefully the constitution in the UN on Human Rights… everyone has the Right to Religious Freedom and it is define as:

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this
Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex,
language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social
origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction
shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or
international status of the country or territory to which a person
belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under
any other limitation of sovereignty.

So basically Dalai Lama has no right to impose a ban on any faith… whether spirit or not. That’s a poor excuse for causing suffering amongst Tibetans and others who chose to worship this deity Dorje Shuugden.

It is like saying I am imposing a ban on Hari Krishna because it is worshiping a “worldly” god, and because of this ban all Hari Krishnans are not allowed to mix with other non-Kari Krisnans, their children cannot go to the same school, they cannot receive medical attention and help, That is down right DISCRIMINATION at it’s worst kind that being done by a Buddhist monk!

No one is banning the Shugdens. I see them at their temple praying as usual. They can pray to their god anytime, anywhere. The DL just adivses them that it is not proper and it is they who are getting all hot under the collar.

Shugden is not part of Buddhism. Gautama never even heard of this Tibetan deity. It is part of Tibetan animism and it is right that the DL asks them to cease. Will the Vatican allow catholics to pray to Prophet mohamad?

@CDG

What exactly are you trying to say that Dharma can come in only one form Buddhas own words? His sutras and not tantra?

On that logic The Buddha should not have taught his other 83,999 teachings only one teaching for all minds?

Buddha actually taught sutra and tantra, and to specific students of all levels and abilities or forms to receive dharma.

Excuse me but are you saying the pope is HH and DS practitioners are wanting to convert to Islam?

In a modern world which we belong this is more than acceptable to find any faith that you think best fits your disposition?

That is called freedom of choice, constitutional right or your human right a basic freedom.

If you wish to debate fine, bring another point of view, is great but to use emotive language?

To create discord or confusion on issues that have been pretty clear if you had visited this site over a period of time would come to understand and know.

DS.COM respects HHDL but we follow our DS lineage due to the kindness of our own Gurus who we have a dharma relationship.

What we do not support is actions that create harm to others in the name of HHDL.

That IMHO is no different to people in the UK protesting about the war in Iraq?
(DS practitioners certainly have the right to protest even if from the point of view of human rights & religious freedoms).

JH

The simple reason for Dalai Lama to impose the ban openly is because Dorje Shudgen practice is not a religion but worship to spirit. I find it very funny is why Dalai Lama only openly impose the ban on Dorje Shudgen but not to other spirit. I believe a lot of people worship spirit because lack of knowledge and can not differentiate what is religion and spirit. Why Dalai Lama never said anything about that? Why only have prejudice against Dorje Shudgen? The ban has caused a lot of sufferings to the practitioners. The ban should be removed to create a harmony society.

@two truths LOGICAL REASONING
SYLLOGISM: Whenever we realize something by means of a conclusive reason we use a special form of logical reasoning known as a syllogism. A syllogism has three parts: subject, predicate and a reason. The combination of the subject and the predicate is called “probandum” in the example below the “probandum” is “The Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara” and is this we realize in dependence upon the reason. A conclusive reason is a reason that is able to establish a probandum incontrovertibly.
The definition of a conclusive reason is a reason that is qualified by the three modes. The three modes are: the property of the subject, the forward pervasion, and the reverse pervasion; and any conclusive reason will be qualified by all three. We can understand these three modes by considering the syllogism stated below:
The Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara because all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion.
The first mode is called the property of the subject because for a reason to be conclusive it must apply to, or be a property of the subject. In this case, the reason is a property of the subject because all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion (reason) refers to The Dalai Lama (subject). The second mode is called the “forward pervasion “because for a reason to be a conclusive reason it must be pervaded by the predicate. In this case, the reason is qualified by the second mode because if all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion (reason) cannot be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara (predicate). The third mode is called the “reverse pervasion” because if the predicate does not apply the reason must also not apply. In this case, the reason is qualified by the third mode because if he was an emanation of Avalokiteshvara all his actions would correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion. If a reason lacks any of the three modes it is not a conclusive reason.
In this case the reason is qualified by the three modes and we can say that it is a syllogism based on a conclusive reason. Maybe sometimes we are not sure about one of the parts of the syllogism, then we have to state another one per example maybe you are not sure about the reason established here ,that is, all his actions does not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion. Then we can establish another syllogism to prove the reason:
All Dalai Lama actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion because he did not condemn Iraq war; he has brought enormous suffering to many people by banning Dorje Shugden practice and he does not recognize his Spiritual Guide.
Recall that even Avalokiteshvara is an enlightened being he has his Spiritual Guide at his crown (Buddha Amithaba) out of respect.
For the rest you already know how to check if this is a syllogism based on a valid reason.

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-expelling-monks/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/speeches-enforcing-the-ban/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-iraq-war/

His Holiness has been clarifying & explaining the actual statue of ‘Dorje Shugden’ for around 20 years…His Holiness also stated clear that people worship whatever they want, that’s their freedom of spiritual quest… But he is not associate with ‘Dorje Shugden’ & its practice. Don’t understand why there are still monks, nuns & laymen specially in the U.S. still insisting on worshiping ‘Dorje Shugden’ as authentic Buddhism when it isn’t in reality!
Which reminds me the perdition of Guru Rinpoche – “when the iron eagle roars in the sky, Buddhism will be transmitted into the West…also it will be the beginning of the degeneration of Buddhism”! Calling your authentic lineage teacher a liar in public with such a false allegation…makes no differences than the ugly propaganda of character assassination made up by the communist China for the past six decades! I wonder what is the actual purpose of these nuns & monks…
Btw, the nun wasn’t calm, please listen carefully her shaky voice, she was just being passive-aggressive!

So the Dalai Lama manifested wrath to that gentle nun requesting for religious freedom. It is in a million chance to witness this wrath. The more Dalai Lama suppress Dorje Shugden, the more publicity is on this Great Protector making him widely spread all around the world; making him famous and planting karmic imprints. It has never in history before that a Buddhist Deity has this kind of wide media coverage and in all the major medias. Thanks to the Dalai Lama and the International Shugden Group!

When religion and politics are joined to the hip, it will cause the practice to spread like wild fire. This is the beginning of the DORJE SHUGDEN Renaissance.

I watched the video several times and paid attention to every detail and I tried to keep an open, unbiased mind. After accessing the situation, based on the footage, I have to say that the Dalai Lama does not really seem that angry to me and I know that many of you won’t agree with me, but that is my honest opinion. First of all, I don’t see aggression or hostility in his body language. He does not look like he wants to strike her and he does not have an aggressive stance. He looks more like a father scolding a child, rather than someone who is truly angry and full of hatred. He is not moving his hands in an angry sort of way, although it might look that way to people who haven’t seen the Dalai Lama often enough to realize that these gestures, (such as pointing his finger and moving his hands around), is the way he ALWAYS gestures when he is making any sort of point and feeling passionate about it. Those gestures have nothing to do with anger. It is just the way he moves his hands whenever he is explaining something. He does it during interviews and teachings too. Some people may see this and feel that he is angry, but he is not. Watch any interview with the Dalai Lama, (where he is not angry at all), and you will see the exact same hand gestures, especially when he is talking about anything he feels strongly about, including topics which have nothing to do with this controversy.

As for the way he raises his voice, consider the circumstances. First of all, at the beginning of the video, we hear the tail end of him being reasonable and trying to explain things to the nun in a calm manner. You can hear that his voice is not angry in any way and he just sounds like he just got done trying to explain it. The video turns on just as he is finishing what he is trying to say. He starts to walk away and then the nun tells him to “stop lying”, which is very rude, IMO. He turns around and comes back to make his speech and he is clearly upset, (although I wouldn’t say he’s angry). On the other hand, I *would* be angry if I tried to explain something and then I hear that person accusing me of being a liar as I am walking away, so even if he was momentarily angry, I can’t say I entirely blame him. But I would say he is more exasperated and perhaps a little scolding, rather than actually mad at her. As he speaks, she does not let him get a word in edgewise, so he raises his voice to be heard. I would do that too if the person I am talking to isn’t listening. She is not talking, she is babbling, (in an irrational manner), about human rights right over what he’s saying and she is interrupting and refusing to have a civil discussion. I think she is acting much ruder than he is and her behavior is unacceptable. She is being impolite and talking over the Dalai Lama, rather than letting him make his point and THEN having her say in response. I’m not saying she shouldn’t make a point, or try to have a dialogue about human rights concerns, but she should give him a chance to speak. In the end, he walks off because he has given up trying to reason with someone who is totally not listening. He is very exasperated, but I don’t think he is actually mad at her. I think he is just frustrated and she is actually the one who is angry. You can hear anger in her voice and her voice shakes with rage as she tells him to stop lying. She may have a very quiet, soft voice, but I hear a lot of anger in her tone.

As I see it on the video replay many times over, the nun is indeed calm, gentle and patient. Her voice to the Dalai Lama is placid and stable but broken into by an irritable voice of the Dalai Lama saying DS worship is not a religion and he knows the teaching. I find it weird the Dalai Lama saying this and he is the only one saying this – but all his GURUs also know the teaching very well and comes from an unbroken and authentic lineage of Great Masters. Who is the Dalai Lama trying to challenge?

The Dalai Lama must know that religion is not defined by Tibetan masters but is defined by the UN CHARTER that any form of worship is to be respected and this goes to all democratic countries. Haven’t Tibetans celebrated a democratic administrative governance and call themselves democrats? Doesn’t this contravene and violate its own constitution?

Isn’t this all so ridiculous?

Dear Regmund,

Actually, I have read and researched this subject in the past. I read the Jamyang Norbu article before and I have also looked at many articles on your site, so I am not so ignorant about this situation. I have also looked at the other side as well. If the New Kadampa Tradition turned up evidence of human rights abuse against them, which could be supported and documented by independent human rights groups, I would be willing to take a second look. (Didn’t Amnesty International drop this case, based on *lack* of evidence way back in 1998, or around that time?) It seems that every time NKT tries to take their case to human rights groups around the world, as well as to the Indian government, the case is dropped. Why is that?

My point was not that there shouldn’t be a discussion about this issue. I was merely pointing out that the Dalai Lama was not angry in this video, (in my opinion). The point of posting this video was to show that the Dalai Lama “lost his cool” and got angry at a “gentle” nun. Yet after watching it, I get the impression that the nun is irrational, rude and passive aggressive, even if she has a quiet voice. Speaking softly does not hide the fact that she is angry and full of negativity. She does not make a good impression for the New Kadampa Tradition, or give it credibility. She is not a good representative for this movement.

If the NKT people want to negotiate with the Dalai Lama, that’s fine and I think there should be some sort of official dialogue about this, if only to resolve the situation once and for all. But if those who are trying to make their case are just going to babble and refuse to have a civilized discussion with him about it, then how can there be a dialogue? If this nun is an example of how NKT people want to negotiate, then it’s no wonder that the Dalai Lama can’t talk to them.

Dear Bonpo,

I fully accept your statement and I am not going to argue what Bon is or isn’t. No disrespect was meant and it would not be right of anyone to unilaterally decide that what someone else regards as a religion is in fact demonic.

Perhaps you can understand the situation faced by Shugden practitioners? That would be similar to me now insisting that Bon is indeed spirit worship and pull various information from the net to support my case. The fact is people should be free to practice what they wish especially when there is conclusive evidence to show Dorje Shugden to be an enlightened being.

seems that the issue being presented for religious freedom is clouded, in my opinion– buy her confrontational stance–who usually addresses someone they are trying to get support from, by starting out with “you must stop lying”,- looks like his holiness is reacting to a verbally aggressive confront… one can’t be heard if they are accusing…

Dear friends,

Please consider these points:

1. The Chinese government having been labelling the Dalai Lama with all types of vulgarities and accusations for the last 50 years. Yet he says he forgives them, shows them patience and sends them love. Well why not practice the same thing towards this ‘rude’ nun? How can one nun destabilize the Dalai Lama of peace and love? The Chinese have killed thousands of Dalai Lama’s countrymen and burned many monasteries to the ground, yet he has nothing harsh to say about them? Why not? But why so angry toward this nun? Was being kind to the Chinese government a marketing stunt?

2. The nun is an ordinary person with desires, anger, misunderstanding as well as kindness, care and resilience. But the Dalai Lama is the emanation of Chenresig (Avalokitesvara-Buddha of Compassion). Should the emanation of the Buddha of compassion be kind to all, even those who are ‘rude’ to him? You can’t expect much from the nun. But we expect a lot more from the Dalai Lama.

3. All letters and requests for the last 15 years from various Shugden groups around the world for dialogue with Dalai Lama has been refused. No peaceful logical dialogue is allowed to Shugden people and this issue that affects millions. But how come dialogue is allowed to the Chinese who have one infinitely more ‘harm’ to Dalai Lama and Tibetans?

Dalai Lama has been caught on film very angry and lost his patience. He should engage the name with love and talk not point at her and scold her with his Shugden ‘logic’. What else is the nun to say when he shows so much anger and so many people around the nun against her? It should not matter how she acts towards him because the Dalai Lama is the head of Buddhism of Tibet which stresses compassion, patience, tolerance and forgiveness. What happened to the emanation of Chenresig?

Dalai Lama has meditated for so many years. Much more than the nun. Where is the results. Just because the nun says he is a liar, should Dalai Lama get so angry? Is this the product of compassion mediation?

Dalai Lama should keep his cool at all times even in the face of adversity because his celebrity status, sponsorship and support is based on the fact he is a man of peace. He is a man of patience and compassion which he lost when approached by this nun.

Jangchup Choeden,

Your points would be very well taken IF the Dalai Lama was actually angry at her. I don’t think he was angry at all. He was upset *at the situation* and frustrated, but I don’t think he was hateful. The pointing of his finger is something he always does when making a strong point. (Watch any interview with him and you will see these gestures whenever he says something passionate.) His voice was raised because he was trying to stress his point and she was interrupting. He wasn’t really shouting, but just trying to be heard above all the talking, (if you can call it talking). IF he had been really angry, then I would agree with everything you said about the nun deserving the same love and compassion as the Chinese leadership, etc. One can be frustrated without feeling angry or hateful toward someone. I just don’t see any of those things in his behavior or gestures.

In public the Dalai Lama has always stood for religious
tolerance:

1. While the Dalai Lama said that the purpose of different religions is to create tolerance, forgiveness and patience, it is individual and group action that will eventually cause the manifestation of peace.

“I carry my life honestly, compassionately and the world order is becoming much more spiritual, isn’t it? That’s my view,” he told the audience.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=8257427

2. How can we promote tolerance and respect towards other religions and ethnic minorities, Your Holiness?

I always mention that the concept of one single truth and one religion is itself a contradiction.

But on the level of the individual it is very relevant and can be very helpful. You should keep a single-pointed faith for yourself.

In the reality of different communities and religions with so many people the concept of only one religion is irrelevant.

In reality we have different religions and a concept of one truth seems irrelevant to me.

From the personal point of view everything is relative and one truth for a single person is relevant.

But when you have many people with different values and backgrounds this concept is not convincing as there are many truths and religions – and this is good so.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/mobile/2011/10/10/dalai-lama-interview-tolerance-57764

3. The Nobel Peace Prize winner said that the era of “one truth, one religion” was reserved for ancient times in which many of the world’s religions were founded. But not today.

The Dalai Lama said all believers need to learn understanding for other faiths — particularly for Islam, because, he noted, oil from the Middle East fuels economies around the world.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-Dalai-Lama-embraces-religious-2537366.php

And there are many more examples and quotes by the Dalai Lama to suggest that His Holiness is an advocate of tolerance and peace. And yet his much-preached tolerance does seem to be absent when it comes to this particular Buddhist sect.

Whether the Shugden deity is a legitimate god as its adherents believe, or a spirit as His Holiness seems to suggest, this whole debacle could have been avoided if His Holiness had been honest and true to his own advice. I find this inconsistency to be disturbing.

@Jack: Yes Jack you said it right and said it well! The bottom line is why create so much suffering on millions by imposing the ban? Why deny your own country men basic human rights to medical care, education and the like? Why incite violence to the followers to create harm and injury including life threats? Why create such division among the community? The Dalai Lama has the power to lift the ban and stop all these negative action and make peace. The Dalai Lama is the peace icon of the world, befitting of this positive, compassionate and loving action.