dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaSpace on June 08, 2011, 12:44:44 PM
-
I was mulling over this for some time. I mean from the 6th Dalai Lama till the 13th Dalai Lama I'm sure the Dalai Lamas had ample time to wipe out the Dorje Shugden practice?
Why wait until the practice has spread all over the world via internet, migratory movements and so forth. If the Dalai Lama moved against dorje shugden whilst all the lamas were still in Tibet it would have been much easier to contain.
Now one click of a button and information is shared across the WWW ( World wide Web) . Now more centres and monasteries dedicated to Dorje Shugden being built all over the world. Wow this is like fighting a war on many fronts. Bad choice for the Dalai Lama or so we think.
-
This is a very good logical question Dharma Space...
We can see from these wonderful videos how much more Dorje Shugden practice is being spread like wild fire in Tibet itself...
So while there is such a huge difficulty in practicing DS openly in Dharamsala and Nepal...thousands are getting initiation of Dorje Shugden in Tibet/China/Taiwan etc. And I doubt that the Dalai Lama did not see this coming... otherwise we can say it is plan that has hugely backfired and well people are practising even more then before with greater devotion.
This is an inspiring video on this site.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039
-
I was mulling over this for some time. I mean from the 6th Dalai Lama till the 13th Dalai Lama I'm sure the Dalai Lamas had ample time to wipe out the Dorje Shugden practice?
Why wait until the practice has spread all over the world via internet, migratory movements and so forth. If the Dalai Lama moved against dorje shugden whilst all the lamas were still in Tibet it would have been much easier to contain.
Now one click of a button and information is shared across the WWW ( World wide Web) . Now more centres and monasteries dedicated to Dorje Shugden being built all over the world. Wow this is like fighting a war on many fronts. Bad choice for the Dalai Lama or so we think.
I think the possible reason is Dalai Lama is not trying to wipe out Dorje Shugden practice but instead doing his best to spread and promote it. Although the method he used may not be agreeable to many people and many people cannot see the logic of his actions if this is really the case, the undeniable result is Dorje Shugden practice is spreading like wild fire throughout the world amidst all the unfavourable conditions.
Like what DharmaSpace said, Dalai Lama had between his 6th and 13th incarnation to destroy Dorje Shugden practice. Why do it now when it is so much tougher. It simply doesn't make sense.
Actions of higher beings are beyond the understanding of ordinary beings as they can see far into the future and will always work for the long term benefit of all beings. Ordinary beings have limited faculties and are not even able to forsee what's going to happen tomorrow.
Therefore, if we fall under the category of ordinary beings, it's best not to criticize or condemn any actions of high beings such as the Dalai Lama. Criticizing beings of higher merits than us can bring severe negative karmic consequences. It would be much better if we put our energy into improving our practice or think of how to bring the Dorje Shugden practice that has benefit us tremendously to others.
Furthermore, Dalai Lama is the face of Tibetan Buddhism and many people came to embrace Tibetan Buddhism because of him. If we criticize Dalai Lama and destroy their faith in him for whatever good reasons we may think we have, we are inadvertently destroying the faith of these people and their spiritual path.
Also, criticizing others arises from our delusion of being adverse to our perceive foes and will get us nothing but bad karma that will bring us suffering, No matter which angle you look at it, criticizing the Dalai Lama or anyone for the matter is not the way to go.
-
This is just my feeling, the ban and the difficulties arising from it has made the practitioners have greater resolve to carry on the lineage practices and work to preserve our tradition even much more than before.
I feel a greater sense of appreciation of our lineage lamas and practices those that we still have now. Much more beings and people know about dorje shugden much creative work have gone into this website for example, coming up with illustrated stories, brochures and so forth every interesting methods for interesting times. I wonder what else is new coming from this site I can't wait , always so innovative and creative.
-
It is already proven that Dorje Shugden cannot be destroyed. Personally, all this controversy is to "promote" this powerful practice. You know what they say about publicity?... Nothing spreads faster than bad publicity. This is especially so in today's society where people are generally more skeptical and cynical... perhaps even jaded. Mindsets like this are attracted to controversy and "bad press"... Plus, with the power and unlimited out reach of the internet, websites like this make the publicity move and spread far and wide. So, why not promote "destroying" Dorje Shugden, it attracted me to this thread...
-
Well, just like Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, you can drown him, poison him, stab him and burn him, he will still live. However, if you use a khata to smother him out. You will unleash the force of a 1000 Dharma Protectors. That's what I believe the Dalai Lama is doing, smothering his practice with in the Tibetan Community so 1000 Dorje Shugdens will arise around the world. The biggest, naturally will be in China due to obvious reasons.
-
Certainly this site has worked diligently to promote our lineage lamas. One of the major beenfits of this site is that it highlights the richness and depth of knowledge of the lamas within our tradition. Something we should really be proud of and we should develop great faith in the Lama Tsongkhapa tradition.
I fold my hands to the people on this site, and dorje shugden who have enriched my view and knowledge about the people who are keeping our lineage alive and well in this degenerate age. I never knew who the great lineage lamas are and what great deeds they have done until I stumbled upon this site.
-
Well, just like Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, you can drown him, poison him, stab him and burn him, he will still live. However, if you use a khata to smother him out. You will unleash the force of a 1000 Dharma Protectors. That's what I believe the Dalai Lama is doing, smothering his practice with in the Tibetan Community so 1000 Dorje Shugdens will arise around the world. The biggest, naturally will be in China due to obvious reasons.
Big Uncle, what a beautiful way of looking at this! Love what you wrote!
I am sure our collective karma may be so bad that such intense purification need to come about in this way before something better and greater can manifest. As it is, our individual karma is bad enough. Just imagine an entire community of Shugden Practitioners! So, whatever hardships that we need to undergo, perhaps it is a very necessary phase to endure with a Dharmic mind and motivation.
After all, if we do not practice even more now, then when?
There is no such thing as a better time or place. It is here and now.
We may not even live to be around to witness anything. Who knows if tomorrow might never come for us. What then?
Under whatever circumstances, we practice and continue to practice. Sometimes, even more than before because our bad karma need to be purified as much as possible.
Nothing good can take place or come to be, if we didn't create the right causes for it, have the merits to be a part of it or have the karma to experience it all.
-
I agree with Big Uncle. It is highly possible. We all know that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the authority when it comes to what is "right" and what is "wrong" in the Tibetan community.
The fact that His Holiness has not instructed a clampdown on the Shugden monasteries - Shar gaden and Serpom, that means His Holiness is not out to ban the practice totally. If I were His Holiness and I wanted to really impose a ban, I could just ask the TGIE to close down the monasteries, but that didn't happen.
-
I agree with Big Uncle. It is highly possible. We all know that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the authority when it comes to what is "right" and what is "wrong" in the Tibetan community.
The fact that His Holiness has not instructed a clampdown on the Shugden monasteries - Shar gaden and Serpom, that means His Holiness is not out to ban the practice totally. If I were His Holiness and I wanted to really impose a ban, I could just ask the TGIE to close down the monasteries, but that didn't happen.
Hi Vajraprotector,
That is an interesting point. After all, these two Shugden monasteries are still in the Tibetan refugee camp which was under the political purview of the Dalai Lama until recently.. Could the Dalai Lama have closed these two monasteries? Does he have the power to do so? I'm also curious - are there Tibetan churches to accommodate the non-Buddhist Tibetan refugees?
-
Technically, the Dalai Lama and TGIE have already "clamped down" as much as is possible on Serpom and Shar Gaden. I believe they do not receive ANY welfare or financial help anymore from the TGIE. They are completely cut off from the Tibetan community in exile. If I'm not mistaken, they also are no longer permitted to hold Tibetan passes (the yellow card) and may have to be Indian nationals.
Legally, I believe the Dalai Lama / TGIE have no jurisdiction over the opening of these monasteries. There is freedom of religion in India so as long as they are on Indian land, those monasteries would be allowed to exist; the TGIE have no right or say to close it down.
So I believe that these two very brave monasteries are functioning as completely independent monastic institutions now, the are beyond the governing laws of the TGIE.
Then again, perhaps this is also a part of the Dalai Lama's foresight - when set so completely away and separate from the TGIE, they are "forced" to develop new methods, new ways and not be bogged down by the old politics and restrictions of this old, archaic government. Surely the DL knows how backwards this TGIE is! It is compassionate of him, perhaps, to "force" them out - by doing so, they have only become even larger, more prominent than ever, and growing very, very, very fast.
-
I agree with Diamond Girl and Big Uncle, like the saying "the truth will prevail"...Dorje Shugden the Great Protector's practice will prevail and benefit many.
Perhaps the new method to spread Dorje Shugden's practice by "destroying" it is the way that best fits the minds of today's time. It is ironic how people are attracted to bad news. If we observe, we will notice that the word of mouth for bad news is often much more powerful. Therefore, for the practice of Lord Dorje Shugden to flourish in the 21st century, this skillful method is required.
-
WB, you raised very valid points.
If it is within HHDL and TGIE's powers and authority to do more than just clamping down on the monks and monasteries - then why are the two monasteries still there?
I mean, if it is really within their power to totally shut them down and even prohibit them from being built, why are HHDL and TGIE allowing them to do so, especially when we know how 'adamant' they are about the ban.
If they wanted to and if they could, these two monasteries should not even be allowed to stand to this day on their so-called exiled-land, isn't it? And Shar Gaden and Serpom still stand to this day. Even allowing more monks to come into their monasteries, and expanding in their development and building.
Can someone please clarify or enlighten us?
-
WB, you raised very valid points.
If it is within HHDL and TGIE's powers and authority to do more than just clamping down on the monks and monasteries - then why are the two monasteries still there?
I mean, if it is really within their power to totally shut them down and even prohibit them from being built, why are HHDL and TGIE allowing them to do so, especially when we know how 'adamant' they are about the ban.
If they wanted to and if they could, these two monasteries should not even be allowed to stand to this day on their so-called exiled-land, isn't it? And Shar Gaden and Serpom still stand to this day. Even allowing more monks to come into their monasteries, and expanding in their development and building.
Can someone please clarify or enlighten us?
Perhaps the “power” we think HHDL on this ban is not exactly in full authority i.e. legally in India. I will not profess to know Indian law but I can imagine that even in refugee camps the land of the soil still prevails.
People have religious freedom in India. As such if these monasteries get clamped down and hostile upheavals arise, it would be catastrophic. Moreover, many here believe that this ban is to actually keep Dorje Shugden practice alive. On the same line of thought these monastries are left to exist and grow. Like Beggar said, financial funding has been stopped, I guess this is as much “clamp down” to be done to show the “power”. It is my thought that HHDL has no intention to clamp down but to make the ban look real he did cut the funds. HHDL does need to keep the Ban alive so that the practice will too.
-
This is a very good logical question Dharma Space...
We can see from these wonderful videos how much more Dorje Shugden practice is being spread like wild fire in Tibet itself...
So while there is such a huge difficulty in practicing DS openly in Dharamsala and Nepal...thousands are getting initiation of Dorje Shugden in Tibet/China/Taiwan etc. And I doubt that the Dalai Lama did not see this coming... otherwise we can say it is plan that has hugely backfired and well people are practising even more then before with greater devotion.
This is an inspiring video on this site.
[url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039[/url]
I agree with you. While this little group of people in Dharamsala are going on their Dorje Shugden witchhunt, the 1.33billion Chinese, 23mil Taiwanese and the millions more on other parts of the world are spreading and practicing this Dharmapala.
-
Desides all the clear evidents that more people in China, Taiwan and other parts of the world are receiving DS initiation, and that Shar Gaden and Serpom monastries remained intact with even more monks and high lamas joining them, I think one of the reasons why Dalai Lama chose to create all the bad publicity for DS is that the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is back and is among us!
This is like a preparation or rehearsal for DS to come out to the lime light when the real incarnation is recognised. Whether you are for or against DS, you would like to know who he is, is he a monk now or a lay person living a normal life among us?
The anxiety is built up, DS practitioners have resolved to protect and propagate the practices even more, high lamas are changing camps, more DS monastries are being built world wide in the midst of the ban....and there comes Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen"s reincarnation when the time is right..... It will be a big bang in the buddhist history!
I just can't wait to see this happen!
-
I mean, will you doubt a highly being? If all the high lamas and His Holiness Dalai Lama is said to be what they should be and do. Who are we to choose a side? we definitely can't see what they see. Hence, we are here to learn. So many are actually talking about Dorje Shugden these days, so many. Good or bad, who are we to judge?
In fact, it is simply amazing how this protector's name spread so wide and far. Like I say, whether you are for or against. We simply do not have the powerful to bring this protector down. Why? Simply, the protector existed hundreds of years ago... and it is still going strong til today. Whatever we say now will be forgotten, if more people are taking up the practice (look at the chapels, the amount of information, images, statues, monasteries and talks!!!) There will be lesser and lesser people talking about it. The ban will be forgotten.
I definitely believe that the protector can't be destroyed. If we could, like what everybody said; wouldn't we be able to do it life time ago? I am really excited of the present reincarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, just wondering where is he, how is he, and what is next. What a great scholar! So many people will be benefited...
-
Desides all the clear evidents that more people in China, Taiwan and other parts of the world are receiving DS initiation, and that Shar Gaden and Serpom monastries remained intact with even more monks and high lamas joining them, I think one of the reasons why Dalai Lama chose to create all the bad publicity for DS is that the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is back and is among us!
This is like a preparation or rehearsal for DS to come out to the lime light when the real incarnation is recognised. Whether you are for or against DS, you would like to know who he is, is he a monk now or a lay person living a normal life among us?
The anxiety is built up, DS practitioners have resolved to protect and propagate the practices even more, high lamas are changing camps, more DS monastries are being built world wide in the midst of the ban....and there comes Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen"s reincarnation when the time is right..... It will be a big bang in the buddhist history!
I just can't wait to see this happen!
Yes, you are right! I too just can't wait to see this happen! I feel that whether it is bad or good publicity /movements of Dorje Shugden, these are dedicated for the grand entrance of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's reincarnation ........
-
It is already proven that Dorje Shugden cannot be destroyed. Personally, all this controversy is to "promote" this powerful practice. You know what they say about publicity?... Nothing spreads faster than bad publicity. This is especially so in today's society where people are generally more skeptical and cynical... perhaps even jaded. Mindsets like this are attracted to controversy and "bad press"... Plus, with the power and unlimited out reach of the internet, websites like this make the publicity move and spread far and wide. So, why not promote "destroying" Dorje Shugden, it attracted me to this thread...
Totally agree with you. This controversy has created so much publicity and has attracted people to check out from websites to find the truth. It is through this website that I have learned so much about Dorje Shugden as I find this website very informative.
Why destroy Dorje Shugden now when he cannot be destroyed previously. This is just clear evident that His Holiness Dalai Lama is creating the cause for the right time to welcome back the reincarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. This method that His Hoiliness is using may not be agreeable to a small group of people but it will have a tremendous impact and benefit to a wider group of people. The manifestation of so many DS temples all over the world proves that DS is spreading and flourishing.
-
Isn't it amazing how bad publicity is still publicity? 8)
Well as a matter of fact, I did not even realise that Dorje Shugden was such a big deal until I heard about the controversy. When I saw what people were making so much noise about. When I read the many forums on this website, when I doubted it cleared so much doubts and encouraged so much more faith. I also gained so much more knowledge reading up of great master's bio, understanding the lineage and history of Dorje Shugden... basically what was deemed such a negative action has in fact created so many positive ones that perhaps even overcomes the negative ones.
So there are some who thinks HH the Dalai Lama is a horrible being for creating this ban, then what exactly do you really think H.H. got out of it in the end... now that we witness the whole change in the political situation of Tibet. If Dalai Lama was so determined to BAN DS forever... why would he want to let go of his power so quickly as the Political Head of Tibet and why not choose one of "his" own people as the Head to ensure they carry out what He wishes???
-
I agree with what Dharma Space has written here, the obstacles and difficulties that have arose and still arising are making the Dorje Shugden practitioners stronger and more determined. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger right? There are so much evidences to prove that Lord Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Buddha but people chose to acknowledge the stories made up by some people who are either jealous or ignorant or both.
-
I see, so you're all saying that in order principally for Dorje Shugden to become popular - because all Lamas teaching it internationally already just wasn't adequate - it is necessary for Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to be desecrated, for people to be beaten, their shrines destroyed, their families ripped apart, schism in the Buddhist community, Buddhism to become popularly known for being an unreliable religion, medical services/jobs/schooling to be denied, 1000's of practitioners to abandon Dharma, 1000's of people to abandon their Gurus, 1000's of people to engage many heavy negative actions and so forth....that all of this is necessary collateral damage for a Buddhist Deity to become popular, and that all of this is the skillful means of a Buddha.
Could someone please explain how this view is NOT supporting and praising the ban, supporting persecution of living beings, supporting schism and so forth.
-
Wait, really, for real, I finally get it, so you're saying since it's amazing how even negative publicity is still publicity, we should persecute Dorje Shugden practitiiners, do slander campaigns about Dorje Shugden and the lineage Gurus, destroy the shrines of people we know practicing Dorje Shugden and so forth, because after all we'd be supporting the skillful means of Buddha Chenrezig. Man, sorry it took me so long to catch on, we are supposed to make others suffer.
But wait, I'm confused, I've thought all this time this website was pro Dorje Shugden. Hmm. Well, at least I finally get what you've all been saying.
-
Man, sorry it took me so long to catch on, we are supposed to make others suffer.
And since, according to this view, making others suffer is required by Dorje Shugden so that he may increase his ow fame, it follows that Dorje Shugden is a cruel, unscrupulous, self-cherishing entity.
This is the actual view of those supporting the evil dalie's criminal actions as beneficial and necessary to the spread of the practice of Dorje Shugden.
-
@psylotripitaka
I think you are oversimplifying the matter, there are so many sentient beings involved in this issue, many people with so many diverse and different karma. No one can deny that the number of people who knows about Dorje Shugden has multiplied exponentially, ten years and now. So Dorje Shugden has permeated in many people lives, for those who relied on Dorje Shugden, DS may have been the only glimmer of hope for the millions and millions of people. Yes many sentient beings have been blessed and saved by Dorje Shugden.
Can we suffer, if we do not have the karma to? For me people who are suffering due to Dorje Shugden ban have their very own karma, the Dorje Shugden ban could have been just a trigger for it. The karma is already dormant in their mindstreams and it just got triggered?
-
Dharmaspace, I have replied to you via the call for an apology thread. Thank you for reading and responding.
-
No one can deny that the number of people who knows about Dorje Shugden has multiplied exponentially, ten years and now.
And for sure such number would increase even more if the evil dalie, for instance, would openly order the murdering of every Shugdenpa. The little known tradition of Shugdenpas would appear in all the headlines, and become world famous! But this you would see as wonderful, right?
This is because you are motivated by mundane concerns such as the desire for fame and popularity. Your obsession with such concerns made of you an unscrupulous sadist, all too happy to see the suffering of others just because it might bring some media attention to your religious label.
Can we suffer, if we do not have the karma to?
You are looking for an argument to justify criminality. Since the crime's victim alone is to blame for their suffering, the criminal should be given free hands to perpetrate their crimes. Therefore, the evil dalie's crimes should be supported and appreciated, because he is just implementing the karma of his victims.
You want to replace the Buddhist idea of compassion, which wishes to reduce the suffering of others without making any judgments about their guilt or lack thereof, with the Jewish-Christian judgmental concept of a deserved punishment of the powerless resulting from some imagined, previous violation.
This shows that you are anything except for a Buddhist. Your twisted, depraved conceptions turned you into a unscrupulous zealot, coldly blaming the powerless victim for their suffering, while praising the perpetrator for inflicting on their victims the suffering they supposedly deserve because of their faults.
This shows as well that it does not help to label oneself a “Buddhist” or a “Shugdenpa”, and that such religious labels may easily become just the convenient cloak to hide one's most obnoxious, bestial instincts. You believe in evil, and to you Buddhism is just a tool to rationalize your actual belief.
For me people who are suffering due to Dorje Shugden ban have their very own karma, the Dorje Shugden ban could have been just a trigger for it.
Which according to you makes of the criminal pulling the trigger a saint worth being called “His Holiness”.
Besides, you are all too happy that the trigger is pulled by such criminal, because you greedily foresee the media attention your religious label will get.
The karma is already dormant in their mindstreams and it just got triggered?
This you please tell the rest of us, when the dormant karma in your mindstream resulting from your sadistic views and actions gets triggered.
-
Agree with the comment mention.. if it doesn't benefit anyone. This will not have continously practitioner practising Dorje Shugden..
There is always a reason why it could last till this point.. and with the world Internet is so well establish, it will only benefit more and more...
-
It is for sure not easy to accept people getting threatened, beaten, expelled from their community and not being able to have access to health care and food.
But when I look at it from the perspective that Dorje Shugden will spread far and wide through the injustice done and reports about the persecution it takes a different angle and I can see that the motivation is different. It is not the action but the motivation which makes the difference.
May the ban come down quickly and smoothly.
-
But when I look at it from the perspective that Dorje Shugden will spread far and wide through the injustice done and reports about the persecution it takes a different angle and I can see that the motivation is different.
Which means that, according to you, it doesn't matter that other people suffer every kind of injustice and violence, as long as your religious brand expands far and wide.
You are therefore not different from Islamic State or Boko Haram terrorists, capable of every inconceivable atrocity for the sake of the expansion of their religious brand.
In short, your motivation is that of a terrorist zealot.
It is not the action but the motivation which makes the difference.
But since your depraved motivation to support the ban is that of a terrorist, where then is your difference?
-
Thank you for commenting on this thread I personally think whatever the Dalai Lama do is not right because everyone want religion freedom no one want freedom so I think the ban is so unfair for the practitioners especially the one who live in India they suffer the most so if DS is a Buddha why destroy the holy teaching.
-
So far as at now, is there any evidences or commotion created or happened to any DS practitioner/s or followers resulted from practicing the Dorje Shugden ? Instead , we are witnessing the growth and sprouting of DS practice around the world. By looking at the state and condition of the persistent and faithful DS practitioners in Tibet being discriminated and tortured, any human with a bit sense of compassion will certainly against all this harmful actions. Leave the right of choosing their own religion and belief to the people.