dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: michaela on January 23, 2012, 04:25:27 PM
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Dear Forum Reader
Is debate on the topic whether Dorje Shugden is a spirit allowed in monasteries that "officially claim" that they do not practice DS such as Gaden Shartse, Sera, etc. The reason for this question is I think if this debate is allowed, the whole logical reason and foundation under the monasteries' decision to follow the ban will fall and easily refuted due to the following:
The arguments that are often raised to defend that DS is a spirit is that the fact that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was murdered. And therefore, he became a spirit.
This claim is easily refuted due to the followings among other reasons:
- DS raised from a holy enlightened beings
- This enlightened being actually chose to be killed
- No practice to subdue DS with the assumption that he is a spirit has ever prevailed.
I don't see any angle or logical reason that can support that DS is a spirit. Have the monasteries mentioned above ever debate about this topic? If so, what is their conclusion?
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Michaela,
That is precisely where the conundrum and difficulty is. When the ban first arose, the many, many monks of the monasteries held debates on the "logic" of the reasoning of the ban. There are many countless refutations for the many claims that were being made by Dalai Lama and his people about Dorje Shugden being a spirit, being harmful to the DL's life, being dangerous to the cause of Tibet (I'll outline these more in detail below). The problem was that none of the arguments and reasons put forth by the Dalai Lama correlated in any way with what is taught at the most basic and fundamental level of Buddhist teachings.
Unfortunately, while the many monasteries - Gaden, Sera, Drepung, the tantric colleges etc - all know that the reasons are untrue, irrational and illogical, the issue has gone far beyond just a spiritual debate. The situation is that the monasteries are very much bound by the politics of the Tibetan exile community. Failure to comply by the ban will result in monks being ex-communicated from their monasteries and totally cut off from their community, from welfare or any association with other Tibetans. This can affect people from the simplest young monk, to the most senior abbots and abbots emeritus throughout the monasteries. A failure to comply is anything related to Dorje Shugden - from not acting in accordance with the ban in any way to associating with, or accepting sponsorship from a known DS practitioner. If a monk doesn't attend the Dalai Lama's teachings over a period of time or is not publically seen in Dalai Lama events, even this becomes a cause for suspicion; an exact instance of this resulted in a highly respected previous abbot of Gaden Jangtse being removed from the monastery overnight.
So you see, it is not that the monasteries agree with the ban or that they do not understand the logic of DS not being a spirit etc. Their hands are tied and they are very much bound to the political restrictions imposed on them from above. For many of them, they have no other recourse; if they are kicked out of their monasteries, they have no one to help them and some are simply just too old to be out on their own with no finances or physical support
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Btw, read the story about the Gaden Jangtse abbot emeritus being expelled here. Do read the whole thread and see what is going on in the monasteries.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1068.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1068.0)
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Dear Beggar
I have read the forum thread on the abbot of Gaden Jangtse being expelled. Thank you very much as it definitely gave me a new insight of the whole situation.
But back to my question, is the debate on whether DS is a spirit allowed in the "non DS" monasteries? I mean the whole reasons for bringing up this question at all is monasteries are the institute of Buddhist studies and Buddhist studies have been based on logical reasoning since the very beginning. If the claim that DS is a spirit cannot be upheld and significantly defended, there will be no reason for these monasteries to comply with the ban. If the majority of the monasteries could not defend claim that DS is a spirit and actually ignore the ban because they are being true to their Buddhist root and Buddhist tradition that everything should be based on logical reasoning, the ban, will be lifted much faster and DS practitioners would no longer have to suffer the discrimination.
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I am sure that this topic is not allowed in any non-DS monasteries. I heard that The 13th Kundeling Tatsak Rinpoche (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2119 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2119)) has been asking HH the Dalai Lama for a ‘discussion’ (not even a debate) about the issue of the ban for years and the Dalai Lama has refused to engage with him on it.
Personally I find it strange that the Dalai Lama will not engage in a public discussion about this issue which he is obviously so passionate and adamant about. Surely a public discussion would immediately put to rest any questions people have about this issue. I would dearly love to watch this discussion if it were to ever happen!
In the meantime, do read Kundeling Rinpoche’s Answers to Questions Posed Recently by Interested Agencies
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3113 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3113)
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Actually, I am quite curious about this thread as I have my own views that are perhaps different from anyone else. I have been told that Dorje Shugden is an 'enlightened' protector in a worldly form. So what worldly form does he belong to, considering the 6 worldly realms he could have taken rebirth in. I have been told that Dorje Shugden took rebirth in the God or demi-god realm. However, considering the cause of his death, which is 'anger' or in his case, vajra anger, I would surmise that he took rebirth in the spirit realm.
I know the stigma attached to this theory and people would be quick to refute this. However, I would like to put forth this notion anyway because why does everyone have to think that being a spirit means that he must be evil? Anyone who has worked with the paranormal knows that spirits are like people, in which they can be evil, benevolent or just indifferent. Hence, I think Dorje Shugden took rebirth as a spirit to uphold his promise to protect the teachings. That doesn't mean he is not Manjushri and I think being a powerful spirit that he is, he has even more freedom and a sort of karmic connection to our world that he could do much more and he IS doing much more.
On the other hand, there's this other possibility that he took rebirth as a demi-god. If I remember correctly, the realm of the demi-god is in constant strive with the powerful gods. Driven by jealousy and desire, they take great pains to equalize themselves with the powerful gods. I don't take this in the literal sense but the strength and determination to protect the teachings as encapsulated by the promise of Duldzin could have propelled him to such a rebirth. Once again, that doesn't mean he is at war with the the Gods or in this case, the Dalai Lama but in constant strife to protect practitioners and heirs of Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition. He is Manjushri and he works like a great strategist and generalissimo of Lama Tsongkhapa.
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I am sure that this topic is not allowed in any non-DS monasteries. I heard that The 13th Kundeling Tatsak Rinpoche ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2119[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2119[/url])) has been asking HH the Dalai Lama for a ‘discussion’ (not even a debate) about the issue of the ban for years and the Dalai Lama has refused to engage with him on it.
Personally I find it strange that the Dalai Lama will not engage in a public discussion about this issue which he is obviously so passionate and adamant about. Surely a public discussion would immediately put to rest any questions people have about this issue. I would dearly love to watch this discussion if it were to ever happen!
In the meantime, do read Kundeling Rinpoche’s Answers to Questions Posed Recently by Interested Agencies
[url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3113[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3113[/url])
We all know HHDL's reasoning is illogical and illfounded he would loose if he where to debate...Big style.
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Dear Beggar
I have read the forum thread on the abbot of Gaden Jangtse being expelled. Thank you very much as it definitely gave me a new insight of the whole situation.
But back to my question, is the debate on whether DS is a spirit allowed in the "non DS" monasteries? I mean the whole reasons for bringing up this question at all is monasteries are the institute of Buddhist studies and Buddhist studies have been based on logical reasoning since the very beginning. If the claim that DS is a spirit cannot be upheld and significantly defended, there will be no reason for these monasteries to comply with the ban. If the majority of the monasteries could not defend claim that DS is a spirit and actually ignore the ban because they are being true to their Buddhist root and Buddhist tradition that everything should be based on logical reasoning, the ban, will be lifted much faster and DS practitioners would no longer have to suffer the discrimination.
No, I don't think discussion and debate is allowed in non DS monasteries. If it had been, there would already have been debate, discussion and dialogue a long time ago. The questions that we have all been asking in this forum have already all been asked by the monks of the monastery. I have heard that IN THE EARLY DAYS, when the Dalai Lama FIRST talked about DS not being a good practice / being a spirit etc, the monks did debate this among themselves but could not come to any logical understanding of this statement.
However, the ban worsened, as we know, and questioning the statements that have been put forward or suggesting in any way that they do not acknowledge DS as evil and do not wish to denounce the practice, would put the monks under a large amount of scrutiny and even risk them expulsion.
In terms of Dharma and logic, all monks know that the logic put forward is not logical. There are great debate scholars throughout the monasteries who would be able to show clearly why the statements about DS-as-spirit are unfounded and illogical, but there is no platform at all for them to debate this.
.... So all the more, WE SHOULD. Through this forum and elsewhere, we speak and say all that the monks are unable to in their restricted communities.
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Dorje Shugden being a spirit is just nothing more than a very weak reason to ban the practice for whatever reason the Dalai Lama wants its practice to be stopped. It is very clear from what has been pointed out in many other texts that Dorje Shugden is indeed a Buddha. The parts quoted from the biography was obviously BEFORE the great 5th realized that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and even composed prayers to try to destroy him.
Another point that became a main reason to why Dorje Shugden was banned was because Nechung made negative comments against Dorje Shugden, that he was unhappy that Dorje Shugden was being practiced in monasteries and so on. What is strange is, nechung's predictions have started to become inaccurate since 1959 until now and he is still a worldly spirit bound by Guru Rinpoche. And he is also the one who asked Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector and now he is going against him? Dosent make sense to me at all.
the following quote was part of a letter written to Pabongkha Rinpoche from the 13th Dalai Lama urging Pabongkha to stop practicing Dorje Shugden.
From HHDL's website
The Great Nechung Choegyal who from the very beginning was commanded and entrusted to protect and guard this monastery, expressed his displeasure to the Drepung Lachi several times, saying that (due to propitiating Dolgyal) the degeneration of the Buddha dharma had been speeded up. This is the source of his displeasure
If nechung is right, how can he be wrong about Tibetan independence and losing tibet to china? Is he still trustworthy? If he is not and has been wrong for so many times, why are they still going to him for refuge?
If Shugden is not enlightened, why is this whole website still up? wouldnt the other Dharma protectors have shut it down by now? Why do monasteries and centers who practice him flourish and grow exponentially? Why would Shar Ganden and Serpom still flourish and why do so many great masters who still practice him grow and new masters continue to develop? If he really was a spirit, all of these wont be possible. Unless all the other Dharma protectors do not exist or that the Buddha is wrong about spirits.
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Regarding BU's theory or proposition that the worldly form that Dorje Shugden took may be that of a being of a spirit realm, I disagree, even though in the Lamrim, it is stated that Enlightened Beings may reincarnate as beings of the lower realms if it is of benefit to sentient beings.
First of all, Trijang Rinpoche, in his great classic, "Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors", has said that if Dorje Shugden were an ordinary being of the Preta Ream, he would have been subjugated by the Fifth Dalai Lama, himself a great Holy and attained Being, and brought under his compassionate control (to become perhaps an unenlightened Protector).
Secondly, when we propitiate Dorje Shugden, we request Him to come from under Je Tsongkapa's throne in Tushita heaven, where he and His entourage reside.
Thirdly, if we study His form and iconography(especially with His dome- shaped hat and His monk's robes), He could not possibly be a being of the preta realm.
Finally, I doubt that if worldly beings of this degenerate age with our conceptual dualistic mind are told that he is a being of the preta realm ( albeit an emanation of a Buddha), we are able to accept it and be convinced that he is a Buddha in such a worldly form.
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According to my reading, dorje shugden is the dharma protector that is same as Mahayana buddhism “weituo“ bodhisavatta, the dharma protector who is the last final 1000 buddha to be. It depends on the teaching whether is it in line to no self or buddhahood of living beings in line with buddha shakamuni teaching. 8)
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More importantly is to develop the wisdom of living beings and if the ordained sangha is in line with liberation of buddha dharma, the ban is not justified. it is not so much about chapel of dorje but the sangha and its teaching. according scripture, when there is controversy araises, one should not base on the person but on dharma, and metta towards living beings. As without opportunity for living beings to be in contact with dharma, they have no opportunity to develop their innate wisdom. ;D
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... I have my own views that are perhaps different from anyone else. I have been told that Dorje Shugden is an 'enlightened' protector in a worldly form. So what worldly form does he belong to, considering the 6 worldly realms he could have taken rebirth in. I have been told that Dorje Shugden took rebirth in the God or demi-god realm. However, considering the cause of his death, which is 'anger' or in his case, vajra anger, I would surmise that he took rebirth in the spirit realm.
I know the stigma attached to this theory and people would be quick to refute this. However, I would like to put forth this notion anyway because why does everyone have to think that being a spirit means that he must be evil? ...
The term "spirit" is a bit vague.
I guess Big Uncle means "preta", or a "hungry ghost", as that is one of the realms of samsara. Nevertheless, those born into that kind of form, need attachement, grasping, greed, hunger, thirst, and so forth. If anger, hatred, malice, ill will, and so forth, is the main cause of the form of the next rebirth, one would end up in hell as a hell being, not in the hungry spirit world as a ghost.
The form of DS, as protectors' in general, is basically a from of yaksha, who are typically classified as beings of the "ashura" realm, or the "demi-god" realm. For example, the protective assistant of Buddha, Vajrapani, is called a yaksha in the classical Pali sources. Of course, ashuras could be called spirits as well, since they do not have bodies of flesh, but are more, um, spirity, so to speak, just as are gods.
It would be better if people would avoid the term "spirit", as it is too general category, meaning "unembodied being" or "being without gross physical form", which strictly taken means inhabitants of 4 realms out of the six realms of samsara (humans and animals being non-spirits). The Christian God is a spirit too, as one of his personages is the "Holy Ghost". 8) So, if someone says that DS is a spirit or is not a spirit, one cannot be certain what is said. Please everyone, use accurate terminology that conforms to the "six realms theory" and all it's subsets of beings.
One could have a debate whether DS is a holy being who has taken the form of a yaksha, or whether he is a mere yaksha, but there is nothing to debate on the issue whether DS is a spirit or not, as it is obvious that he is one, just like all the other protectors.
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This discussion thread has become very interesting ;D. Perhaps instead of suggesting, pleading or forcing HHDL to lift the ban, we should instead requested an open debate about the subject whether DS is really an enlightened protector and remove all doubts that have been spreading around.
I love HHDL and have read some of his books. I am impressed by his level of intelligence. I am sure he put the ban in place for a bigger purpose. One of HHDL books that that really caught me is "Destructive Emotion: A Scientific Dialoque with the Dalai Lama." He invited several well known scientists to discuss about the said topic. One thing that impressed me the most is he said (not in his exact words), if (i suppose in the topic of discussion or debate) science wins against Buddhist Philosophy, than Buddhist Philosophy has to change. At the time, I was thinking in awe what a being with an open mind. This kind of attitude is the very quality that attracted me to Buddhism in the first place. Just the same with Tsongkhapa's work Lam Rim Chen Mo. He was very clear and examined the matter from all angles.
I agree with Big Uncle, DS can manifest as a spirit because he is fully in control. He can manifest in any form that he wishes to benefit others, because he is in control not by the force of throwing karma.
So ya, it may be true that if we are worshiping DS when he manifests as a spirit, we are worshiping a spirit. But the point is not really the form that we are worshiping. We are worshiping an enlightened mind that can guide us to the enlightened itself because he already obtained those state.
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Hi, I have prepared a longer and more extensive reasoning.
Is Dorje Shugden a demon or a Buddha?
There are many who argue about the state of Dorje Shugden. Traditionalists, consisting of high lamas who received the practice from their masters consider Dorje Shugden an enlightened being, a Buddha on the basis that some of the most eminent Buddhist teachers of the century practice them, and also on the past reincarnations of Dorje Shugden, who comes from a long line of enlightened and erudite masters. On the other side of the camp are the Dalai Lama and his supporters, who claim that Dorje Shugden is nothing but a ghost, based on the circumstances of how Dorje Shugden came up on, his prayers, and his history based on the 5th Dalai Lama’s biography.
To explain this topic, we must first also discuss about the origins of Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden’s line of incarnations as explained by many enlightened masters, starts off with Virupa. Virupa is one of the enlightened Mahasiddhas of Buddhism. He was a monk in Atisha’s monastery, Vikramshila who has achieved spectacular tantric abilities to the point of having Yidams appearing to him directly. His subsequent incarnations were all of high caliber from this point forward. He was Sakya Pandita, one of the 5 founders of the Sakya tradition, Buton Rinpoche who compiled the Tibetan Buddhist Cannon, Kangyur and Tengyur before reincarnating as Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who built and funded Ganden Monastery, and subsequently incarnated as Panchen Sonam Dragpa who composed most of the study material for the monks, which are still being used today. The last incarnation was a very famous monk by the name of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen.
Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a contemporary of the 5th Dalai Lama. He is also a candidate for the Dalai Lama’s title when he was first discovered. He was immensely popular during his time, until his fame and property eclipsed those of the 5th Dalai Lama. When this happened, the attendants of the 5th Dalai Lama killed Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who arose as Dorje Shugden. The 5th Dalai Lama, who thought he was an evil spirit as many unfortunate events happened during that time attempted to exorcize him with the highest lamas of that time. Every single one of the highly effective rituals failed to destroy Dorje Shugden, and this made the 5th Dalai Lama realize that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit but an enlightened Dharma protector. The Dalai Lama immediately wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden and made a statue with his own hands, which exists until today. Dorje Shugden’s practice has existed and has been practiced by the Gelugs and the Sakyas to an extent since.
According to the traditionalists, Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche got the practice of this protector from his master, Tapu Dorje Chang. Tapu Dorje Chang, who was famous for his ability to traverse other planes of existences, went to Tushita heaven where Maitreya, Atisha and Lama Tsongkhapa and their retinues resided. There, he requested the teaching of Dorje Shugden directly from Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen who passed it to him with Lama Tsongkhapa’s blessings. This practice was then disseminated and practiced by the highest lamas of the Gelugpa tradition. Logically, if they practice and recommend it, surely there is nothing wrong with the practice. [Source http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11618 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11618)]
If Dorje Shugden was really an evil spirit, that would mean that all of these erudite masters such as Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Rilbur Rinpoche, Taktra Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche and many others are also wrong and their teachings are invalid and will only lead to degeneration. Their students will also no attainments and their teachings will be invalid as well. It would also mean that Dharma protectors do not exist because they allow the Dharma to degenerate. However the opposite is happening and these teachers and their students are spreading Dharma far and wide, and there are attainments.
However, on the other side of the story, the Dalai Lama quotes from the 5th Dalai Lama’s secret biography, saying that Dorje Shugden is but a normal spirit who appeared out of distorted prayers. The biography also insinuates that Dorje Shugden is against the 5th Dalai Lama and wanted to harm him. The 5th Dalai Lama even wrote a prayer that requests the other Dharmapalas to destroy Dorje Shugden but it did not work. Also listed as reasons were a number of high lamas who were also against the Dorje Shugden practice from the 17th century up to the 19th century, stating that Kalarupa was furious at monks who practiced Dorje Shugden and killed them to “cleanse” the monastery. However, the main point as declared by the Dalai Lama on why Dorje Shugden should not be practiced is that Dorje Shugden encourages sectarianism since Dorje Shugden encourages the practitioner to only focus on his or her own lineage, and thus harmful to the cause of Tibet and to the Dalai Lama as the current Dalai Lama would like to practice all 4 of the lineages together. Another historical fact is that many people dreamt of Dorje Shugden, in a dream to several people, announcing the death of the 13th Dalai Lama in a “joyous and melodious tone” from Pabongkha Rinpoche’s biography, as proof of his maliciousness. All of these are proof that Dorje Shugden is against the Dalai Lama and are presented as scriptural evidence that Dorje Shugden is malicious and that he is against the Dalai Lama. On another level, since Pabongkha Rinpoche’s time, consultations with the state oracle, Nechung had stated that he was unhappy with monks practicing Dorje Shugden in Drepung monastery, and that it would speed up the degeneration of the Dharma if it continued.
[source: http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness, (http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness,) http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references (http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references)]
Although all of these there are a few loopholes with these scriptural references.
- Firstly, it is a well known fact that the 5th Dalai Lama was very against Dorje Shugden at first and tried to destroy him but realized that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha when all of the methods failed. He remedied for his mistake of writing the wrathful prayer by writing a prayer enthroning Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Dharmapala. The evidence from the 5th Dalai Lama’s biography only takes the part where the 5th Dalai Lama still thought that Dorje Shugden was still a spirit and not after.
- On the Kalarupa case, there was no evidence on who perceived Kalarupa acting this way. On the sectarianism of Dorje Shugden, in his prayers Dorje Shugden is requested to protect Losang’s tradition (Gelugpa). [source: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=57 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=57) ] This is however a standard feature of any Dharma protector prayer where the Dharma protector is requested to protect the lineage, and not exclusive to Dorje Shugden’s prayers alone, therefore there is nothing sectarian about Dorje Shugden’s prayers.
- Many lamas such as Pabongkha Rinpoche has also stressed the importance on being loyal to one’s own tradition as it sends a message to others that your own tradition is not good enough, which is why you take on another lineage, giving a bad impression to others of your own lineage [Liberation of the Palm of your Hand] and Dorje Shugden encouraging this trait is not a strong or valid reason for him to be classified as sectarian.
- As for the other historical facts, it is also well known that Dorje Shugden saved the life of the 14th Dalai Lama by asking him to flee Tibet when Nechung asked him to stay, and also Dorje Shugden asking people to form Chushi Gangdruk, a guerilla group to protect the Dalai Lama, 3 years before the uprising began [http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?p=8850], so why would Dorje Shugden be happy for the 13th Dalai Lama’s death but protects the 14th Dalai Lama? This inconsistency does not make logical sense at all.
- In Dorje Shugden’s biography, it is stated that Nechung specifically appeared to Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen and requested him to manifest as a Dharma protector for the recent times to come. In other words, Nechung was instrumental in the “creation” of Dorje Shugden, but why would he go against him now when he helped create Dorje Shugden? Did Nechung realize he made a mistake? But if he did then that would mean that he is no longer dependable as the state oracle as all his instructions and predictions would be false, including all the tulkus that he has approved. Again, there is no logical conclusion to this point.
As presented here, the points given on why Dorje Shugden is a demon is quite weak, but there is much evidence that Dorje Shugden is in reality a Buddha after heavy contemplation, reasoning and evidence.
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Thanks Ensapa for the explanation in details, yes I agree with the statement of Dorje Shugden a demon is very weak from all the points given.
Enlighten beings are enlighten beings, they won't show any quality to harm as this is a quality of non-enlighten. So far, is there any evident of negative effects from practicing Dorje Shugden?
The sufferings of the practitioners are all caused by human beings who interpret HHDL's will to an extreme extend.
I wish people who give up the practice of Dorje Shugden because of HHDL understand that, it's your Guru Devotion to give up, but it's also their Guru Devotion to continue practicing. It's like people in different religions have their ways, to critic and harm is not the point to have religion, it brings no point to peace.
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Hi, I have prepared a longer and more extensive reasoning.
Is Dorje Shugden a demon or a Buddha?
There are many who argue about the state of Dorje Shugden. Traditionalists, consisting of high lamas who received the practice from their masters consider Dorje Shugden an enlightened being, a Buddha on the basis that some of the most eminent Buddhist teachers of the century practice them, and also on the past reincarnations of Dorje Shugden, who comes from a long line of enlightened and erudite masters. On the other side of the camp are the Dalai Lama and his supporters, who claim that Dorje Shugden is nothing but a ghost, based on the circumstances of how Dorje Shugden came up on, his prayers, and his history based on the 5th Dalai Lama’s biography.
To explain this topic, we must first also discuss about the origins of Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden’s line of incarnations as explained by many enlightened masters, starts off with Virupa. Virupa is one of the enlightened Mahasiddhas of Buddhism. He was a monk in Atisha’s monastery, Vikramshila who has achieved spectacular tantric abilities to the point of having Yidams appearing to him directly. His subsequent incarnations were all of high caliber from this point forward. He was Sakya Pandita, one of the 5 founders of the Sakya tradition, Buton Rinpoche who compiled the Tibetan Buddhist Cannon, Kangyur and Tengyur before reincarnating as Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who built and funded Ganden Monastery, and subsequently incarnated as Panchen Sonam Dragpa who composed most of the study material for the monks, which are still being used today. The last incarnation was a very famous monk by the name of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen.
Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a contemporary of the 5th Dalai Lama. He is also a candidate for the Dalai Lama’s title when he was first discovered. He was immensely popular during his time, until his fame and property eclipsed those of the 5th Dalai Lama. When this happened, the attendants of the 5th Dalai Lama killed Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who arose as Dorje Shugden. The 5th Dalai Lama, who thought he was an evil spirit as many unfortunate events happened during that time attempted to exorcize him with the highest lamas of that time. Every single one of the highly effective rituals failed to destroy Dorje Shugden, and this made the 5th Dalai Lama realize that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit but an enlightened Dharma protector. The Dalai Lama immediately wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden and made a statue with his own hands, which exists until today. Dorje Shugden’s practice has existed and has been practiced by the Gelugs and the Sakyas to an extent since.
According to the traditionalists, Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche got the practice of this protector from his master, Dagpo Dorje Chang, who got it from his master, Tapu Dorje Chang. Tapu Dorje Chang, famous for his ability to traverse other planes of existences, went to Tushita heaven where Maitreya, Atisha and Lama Tsongkhapa and their retinues resided. There, he requested the teaching of Dorje Shugden directly from Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen who passed it to him with Lama Tsongkhapa’s blessings. This practice was then disseminated and practiced by the highest lamas of the Gelugpa tradition. Logically, if they practice and recommend it, surely there is nothing wrong with the practice. [Source [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11618[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11618[/url])]
If Dorje Shugden was really an evil spirit, that would mean that all of these erudite masters such as Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Rilbur Rinpoche, Taktra Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche and many others are also wrong and their teachings are invalid and will only lead to degeneration. Their students will also no attainments and their teachings will be invalid as well. It would also mean that Dharma protectors do not exist because they allow the Dharma to degenerate. However the opposite is happening and these teachers and their students are spreading Dharma far and wide, and there are attainments.
However, on the other side of the story, the Dalai Lama quotes from the 5th Dalai Lama’s secret biography, saying that Dorje Shugden is but a normal spirit who appeared out of distorted prayers. The biography also insinuates that Dorje Shugden is against the 5th Dalai Lama and wanted to harm him. The 5th Dalai Lama even wrote a prayer that requests the other Dharmapalas to destroy Dorje Shugden but it did not work. Also listed as reasons were a number of high lamas who were also against the Dorje Shugden practice from the 17th century up to the 19th century, stating that Kalarupa was furious at monks who practiced Dorje Shugden and killed them to “cleanse” the monastery. However, the main point as declared by the Dalai Lama on why Dorje Shugden should not be practiced is that Dorje Shugden encourages sectarianism since Dorje Shugden encourages the practitioner to only focus on his or her own lineage, and thus harmful to the cause of Tibet and to the Dalai Lama as the current Dalai Lama would like to practice all 4 of the lineages together. Another historical fact is that many people dreamt of Dorje Shugden, in a dream to several people, announcing the death of the 13th Dalai Lama in a “joyous and melodious tone” from Pabongkha Rinpoche’s biography, as proof of his maliciousness. All of these are proof that Dorje Shugden is against the Dalai Lama and are presented as scriptural evidence that Dorje Shugden is malicious and that he is against the Dalai Lama. On another level, since Pabongkha Rinpoche’s time, consultations with the state oracle, Nechung had stated that he was unhappy with monks practicing Dorje Shugden in Drepung monastery, and that it would speed up the degeneration of the Dharma if it continued.
[source: [url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness,[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness,[/url]) [url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references[/url])]
Although all of these there are a few loopholes with these scriptural references.
- Firstly, it is a well known fact that the 5th Dalai Lama was very against Dorje Shugden at first and tried to destroy him but realized that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha when all of the methods failed. He remedied for his mistake of writing the wrathful prayer by writing a prayer enthroning Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Dharmapala. The evidence from the 5th Dalai Lama’s biography only takes the part where the 5th Dalai Lama still thought that Dorje Shugden was still a spirit and not after.
- On the Kalarupa case, there was no evidence on who perceived Kalarupa acting this way. On the sectarianism of Dorje Shugden, in his prayers Dorje Shugden is requested to protect Losang’s tradition (Gelugpa). [source: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=57[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=57[/url]) ] This is however a standard feature of any Dharma protector prayer where the Dharma protector is requested to protect the lineage, and not exclusive to Dorje Shugden’s prayers alone, therefore there is nothing sectarian about Dorje Shugden’s prayers.
- Many lamas such as Pabongkha Rinpoche has also stressed the importance on being loyal to one’s own tradition as it sends a message to others that your own tradition is not good enough, which is why you take on another lineage, giving a bad impression to others of your own lineage [Liberation of the Palm of your Hand] and Dorje Shugden encouraging this trait is not a strong or valid reason for him to be classified as sectarian.
- As for the other historical facts, it is also well known that Dorje Shugden saved the life of the 14th Dalai Lama by asking him to flee Tibet when Nechung asked him to stay, and also Dorje Shugden asking people to form Chushi Gangdruk, a guerilla group to protect the Dalai Lama, 3 years before the uprising began [http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?p=8850], so why would Dorje Shugden be happy for the 13th Dalai Lama’s death but protects the 14th Dalai Lama? This inconsistency does not make logical sense at all.
- In Dorje Shugden’s biography, it is stated that Nechung specifically appeared to Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen and requested him to manifest as a Dharma protector for the recent times to come. In other words, Nechung was instrumental in the “creation” of Dorje Shugden, but why would he go against him now when he helped create Dorje Shugden? Did Nechung realize he made a mistake? But if he did then that would mean that he is no longer dependable as the state oracle as all his instructions and predictions would be false, including all the tulkus that he has approved. Again, there is no logical conclusion to this point.
As presented here, the points given on why Dorje Shugden is a demon is quite weak, but there is much evidence that Dorje Shugden is in reality a Buddha after heavy contemplation, reasoning and evidence.
Ensapa,
This is an excellent and well prepared essay. We will incorporate this into our permanent writings section of this website so all future visitors may benefit. Please keep up your sensitive and powerful investigations concluding with more of your thoughts and writings. We look forward to them.
Mana
P.S. Ensapa, please see this: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11790 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11790)
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Ensapa,
Thank you for the tremendous effort in writing that piece. Your points extremely clear and very hard to debate against. I would like to see the faces of Dalai Lama supporters when shown these points!
I have a few extra points to add to this debate about dorje shugden NOT being a demon / ghost / evil thing. Hope they might be helpful.
1. Why won't he die?!
During the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, many of the highest lamas in the land were called to do extensive rituals to exorcise him and "kill" him completely. Some witnesses apparently even said that they smelt the smell of burning flesh, which was supposed to be proof that the "spirit" had been totally killed.
In that case, why are we still talking about this "spirit" today? If the spirit was already killed, then what is there to be so afraid of?
2. Recent assassinations - failed!
In more recent times, the 14th Dalai Lama has also employed many high lamas to performed rituals to kill Dorje Shugden. in 1997, there was a famous case of many monks from Sera being called to perform a Hayagriva Tamdin, a very powerful puja to destroy this spirit.
It didn't work. The next day, Dorje Shugden took trance in an oracle and spoke perfectly as always.
There is only one kind of being that cannot be destroyed - an enlightened one. The fact that many attempts to kill dorje shugden have failed points to only thing: that he is an enlightened being and not a spirit.
3. Okay, murder isn't working. What about other methods?
Since killing him doesn't work, why don't the many, many high Lamas throughout the many centuries just do a simple binding ritual to bind and control him? if this could be done for spirits as powerful and dangerous as Pehar (which bound him into the Dharma protector Nechung), then why can't it be done for the simple single "spirit" of a murdered monk? errrr, perhaps because he is NOT a spirit!
4. He doesn't really send you to hell
The claims are that if you pray to a spirit, especially to Dorje Shugden in particular, his practice is so harmful that it will send you to hell.
In this case, all the hundreds and thousands of monks throughout the Tibetan Buddhist traditions who have practiced him must be burning in avici right now. well, they aren't. A number of tulkus recognised throughout the world today are proof of that. Certain Rinpoches were recognised by the Dalai Lama himself - like Trijang Rinpoche! This is illogical isn't it? They were very strong DS practitioners in their previous life - this would mean that they should be burning in hell by now since DS is apparently such a harmful spirit. But in fact, they are very much alive, and back here in on earth, still teaching and spreading Dharma in very beneficial ways. And if Dalai Lama dislikes DS so very much, claiming him to be so harmful, then why would be recognise the incarnations of very strong and well known DS practitioners??
5. This spirit can harm Chenrezig?
The claims are that this spirit can harm Dalai Lama's life. This is an oxymoron. The people who claim this are also the same people who regard the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig. This means that they believe that a spirit can harm the life of Chenrezig, a fully enlightened being - how is this possible!? It is the complete opposite of what the dharma teachings tell us.
Even if we are not fully enlightened beings, even taking the refuge vows and hold them sincerely, or holding the monk vows well is already protection against harm from spirits. This claim that DS is a spirit that can harm even the highest of practitioners is completely illogical and goes against everything we have been taught in Dharma.
6. Why HASN't he already hurt the Dalai Lama?
If Dorje Shugden was such a vengeful nasty spirit intent on causing harm to the Dalai Lama, then why hasn't he already done so?! He hasn't laid a single finger on any of the Dalai Lama's incarnations from the 5th to the 14th... why not? If he's so harmful and vengeful, why hasn't he just done something already?!
Why is it instead, that whenever DS takes trance through the oracles, and questions are put to him about the dalai Lama and this current situation, he only replies that we should all be patient, practice compassion and never speak badly against the Dalai Lama. Is this just a very patient "spirit" or an enlightened being? I think, the latter!
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So you see, the many claims that DS is a spirit can be very easily refuted. The claims are not logical and do not align in any way to the teachings of Dharma. This is not about putting down the Dalai Lama - who I suppose has his own reasons for this ban...it cannot be as simplistic as this, since the debates are so clearly skewed and the points so easily refuted. No, it's not about putting down the DL, but the truth of the arguments need to be shared so people can see for themselves how the claims put forward are not true. At the same time, we better understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden, by examining it from both the positive and negative sides.
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... I have my own views that are perhaps different from anyone else. I have been told that Dorje Shugden is an 'enlightened' protector in a worldly form. So what worldly form does he belong to, considering the 6 worldly realms he could have taken rebirth in. I have been told that Dorje Shugden took rebirth in the God or demi-god realm. However, considering the cause of his death, which is 'anger' or in his case, vajra anger, I would surmise that he took rebirth in the spirit realm.
I know the stigma attached to this theory and people would be quick to refute this. However, I would like to put forth this notion anyway because why does everyone have to think that being a spirit means that he must be evil? ...
The term "spirit" is a bit vague.
I guess Big Uncle means "preta", or a "hungry ghost", as that is one of the realms of samsara. Nevertheless, those born into that kind of form, need attachement, grasping, greed, hunger, thirst, and so forth. If anger, hatred, malice, ill will, and so forth, is the main cause of the form of the next rebirth, one would end up in hell as a hell being, not in the hungry spirit world as a ghost.
The form of DS, as protectors' in general, is basically a from of yaksha, who are typically classified as beings of the "ashura" realm, or the "demi-god" realm. For example, the protective assistant of Buddha, Vajrapani, is called a yaksha in the classical Pali sources. Of course, ashuras could be called spirits as well, since they do not have bodies of flesh, but are more, um, spirity, so to speak, just as are gods.
It would be better if people would avoid the term "spirit", as it is too general category, meaning "unembodied being" or "being without gross physical form", which strictly taken means inhabitants of 4 realms out of the six realms of samsara (humans and animals being non-spirits). The Christian God is a spirit too, as one of his personages is the "Holy Ghost". 8) So, if someone says that DS is a spirit or is not a spirit, one cannot be certain what is said. Please everyone, use accurate terminology that conforms to the "six realms theory" and all it's subsets of beings.
One could have a debate whether DS is a holy being who has taken the form of a yaksha, or whether he is a mere yaksha, but there is nothing to debate on the issue whether DS is a spirit or not, as it is obvious that he is one, just like all the other protectors.
Thanks Zhalmed Pawo. Anyway, its all just speculation on our parts. I guess it is most likely in the Demi-god (Asura) or God (Deva) realms that Dorje Shugden manifested considering what you have said. Anyway, it would also make more sense that Dorje Shugden took rebirth in the higher realms as such existences would provide certain abilities and powers that will enhance his abilities to assist others that lower rebirths might not have. That's what I am thinking. So, that must be the case.
Vajrastorm:-
In the case of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's text, when he referred to Dorje Shugden and he has not taken rebirth as a preta, he means a lower rebirth controlled by karma. I think Dorje Shugden could very well taken rebirth in that state if he wishes to and that it will benefit others. The basis of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's statement is the fact that people have been accusing Dorje Shugden controlled by karma has taken negative rebirth and thereby denying his obvious enlightened qualities. My point and his is quite different but anyway, thank you for bringing it up.
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Ensapa,
This is an excellent and well prepared essay. We will incorporate this into our permanent writings section of this website so all future visitors may benefit. Please keep up your sensitive and powerful investigations concluding with more of your thoughts and writings. We look forward to them.
Mana
P.S. Ensapa, please see this: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11790[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11790[/url])
Thank you mana. I am very humbled for my writing to be featured on the website. I hope that it will clear the doubts of many who read it.
One thing to consider about Dorje Shugden is, his help comes very quick, even Setrap when requested does not perform activity as fast or effective as Dorje Shugden. An explanation that was given to me is because the connection between our realm and Setrap's realm is not strong as he resides in the realm of the yakshas. Dorje Shugden is fast and more effective because he resides in the spirit realm which is closer to our realm compared to the yaksha realm. From what I have heard, there are many levels of spirits as well, some spirits matching that of those in the deva realm but they are still not devas. Dorje Shugden might have taken that form out of great compassion so that he can reach us quicker and faster. But that does not mean he is not enlightened as he does not experience any of the normal sufferings that a spirit would and that he is in reality a Buddha taking that form in order to reach out to more people faster and easier.
With that having said, Setrap and Dorje Shugden reside in the same mandala. So really i am not too sure on the explanation that i have is correct or not. can someone help verify or explain? Sometimes I get so much information that there is a need to verify and check all of these info to make sure that they are valid.
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One thing to consider about Dorje Shugden is, his help comes very quick, even Setrap when requested does not perform activity as fast or effective as Dorje Shugden. An explanation that was given to me is because the connection between our realm and Setrap's realm is not strong as he resides in the realm of the yakshas. Dorje Shugden is fast and more effective because he resides in the spirit realm which is closer to our realm compared to the yaksha realm. From what I have heard, there are many levels of spirits as well, some spirits matching that of those in the deva realm but they are still not devas. Dorje Shugden might have taken that form out of great compassion so that he can reach us quicker and faster. But that does not mean he is not enlightened as he does not experience any of the normal sufferings that a spirit would and that he is in reality a Buddha taking that form in order to reach out to more people faster and easier.
With that having said, Setrap and Dorje Shugden reside in the same mandala. So really i am not too sure on the explanation that i have is correct or not. can someone help verify or explain? Sometimes I get so much information that there is a need to verify and check all of these info to make sure that they are valid.
Another explanation could be that karmically, Dorje Shugden has a closer affinity to the beings of this time, as he manifested specifically in this time to assist practitioners of this time. It is not that setrap answers us slower or that his practice is less effective or efficient. It is we have a much stronger karmic affinity to Dorje Shugden AT THIS TIME, which makes it easier for us to "connect" to him and for him to assist us. The efficacy and swiftness is never determined from the side of the Buddhas but from our side - whether our karmas "permit" us to receive the help.
This might be compared to how certain yidams' practices are more effective or relevant for specific time periods. For example. Vajrayogini's practice is now more effective than ever before in any of the previous times. It is not that she is suddenly now more powerful, but that her practice is more suited to our time and "answers" the needs, desires and aptitudes of people at this time. It is the same for Dharma Protectors.
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Another explanation could be that karmically, Dorje Shugden has a closer affinity to the beings of this time, as he manifested specifically in this time to assist practitioners of this time. It is not that setrap answers us slower or that his practice is less effective or efficient. It is we have a much stronger karmic affinity to Dorje Shugden AT THIS TIME, which makes it easier for us to "connect" to him and for him to assist us. The efficacy and swiftness is never determined from the side of the Buddhas but from our side - whether our karmas "permit" us to receive the help.
This might be compared to how certain yidams' practices are more effective or relevant for specific time periods. For example. Vajrayogini's practice is now more effective than ever before in any of the previous times. It is not that she is suddenly now more powerful, but that her practice is more suited to our time and "answers" the needs, desires and aptitudes of people at this time. It is the same for Dharma Protectors.
Thank you for your explanation. No wonder Dorje Shugden's help comes to us so fast compared to other Dharma protectors. Is it because he is 'new' compared to other Dharma protectors? But if it is his time now why is there a ban against him? It would severely limit the benefits that he can bring to people. In general, it is harder to practice the Dharma during this time period...so I am guessing that the harder it is for people to practice the Dharma, the more effective Dorje Shugden will be to help us? If that is the case, he would be extremely powerful and popular after the ban is lifted.
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I believe that why there is a ban for the protector Dorje Shugden is because it is a test to see how much people are willing to give for dharma in these degenerated times. I also believe that after the ban is lifted, Dorje Shudgen would be practiced more strongly among the practitioners and the future practitioners.
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I believe that why there is a ban for the protector Dorje Shugden is because it is a test to see how much people are willing to give for dharma in these degenerated times. I also believe that after the ban is lifted, Dorje Shudgen would be practiced more strongly among the practitioners and the future practitioners.
That's an interesting idea you have there and I think that the Dorje Shugden ban does weed out those that are weaker but I am not sure if that's the main concern of the Dalai Lama has. I am sure the ban is not about getting rid of the superficial practitioners and if the Dalai Lama is who they regard him as, I am sure he has a bigger, grander plan than just to weed out superficial practitioners. Nevertheless, thank you for your thoughts. I do like that you are thinking and offering what you think of the issues at hand. This idea is the first I have ever heard of and I do hope you contribute more and share with us what you think.
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That's an interesting idea you have there and I think that the Dorje Shugden ban does weed out those that are weaker but I am not sure if that's the main concern of the Dalai Lama has. I am sure the ban is not about getting rid of the superficial practitioners and if the Dalai Lama is who they regard him as, I am sure he has a bigger, grander plan than just to weed out superficial practitioners. Nevertheless, thank you for your thoughts. I do like that you are thinking and offering what you think of the issues at hand. This idea is the first I have ever heard of and I do hope you contribute more and share with us what you think.
Obviously the ban and the Dalai Lama's decisions are multi pronged and they have multiple benefits and not just one. Those that have been mentioned are just some of them and not all. The ban will have several purposes and they will all come to light when the ban is lifted. Maybe weeding out superficial practitioners is part of the plan, and testing Dorje Shugden followers is the other because without the ban, we would not have seen so many interesting happenings and reactions of "buddhists" who act in all the ways that are anything but Buddhist, not only in the CTA but also worldwide.
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Of course I agree that the ban is for a bigger cause and not just to separate out the weaker minds. Hence, DL has not opposed his Guru, Trijang Rinpoche, to continue practicing DS.
But with regards to the topic of if DS is a spirit, I would definitely say that DS is not a spirit. Because if DS is really an evil spirit what the monasteries have been practicing for hundreds of years would be wrong. And so even said that the 5th to the 13th Dalai Lama are wrong.
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Of course I agree that the ban is for a bigger cause and not just to separate out the weaker minds. Hence, DL has not opposed his Guru, Trijang Rinpoche, to continue practicing DS.
But with regards to the topic of if DS is a spirit, I would definitely say that DS is not a spirit. Because if DS is really an evil spirit what the monasteries have been practicing for hundreds of years would be wrong. And so even said that the 5th to the 13th Dalai Lama are wrong.
Well, the Dalai Lama may have allowed Trijang Rinpoche to continue practicing, but that does not have any effect as it has failed to move the fanatics who still hate Trijang Rinpoche and still dont want him to practice. So in any case, the Dalai Lama's statement is hypocritical to an extent because if he really meant it, he would have said that anyone who make death threats against Trijang Rinpoche is the same as making death threats to the Dalai Lama and anyone who is disrespectful to Trijang Rinpoche will not be allowed to see the Dalai Lama. But this didint happen. so we can guess why.
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Well, the Dalai Lama may have allowed Trijang Rinpoche to continue practicing, but that does not have any effect as it has failed to move the fanatics who still hate Trijang Rinpoche and still dont want him to practice. So in any case, the Dalai Lama's statement is hypocritical to an extent because if he really meant it, he would have said that anyone who make death threats against Trijang Rinpoche is the same as making death threats to the Dalai Lama and anyone who is disrespectful to Trijang Rinpoche will not be allowed to see the Dalai Lama. But this didint happen. so we can guess why.
True, that with what the Dalai Lama said did not make much impact on his followers. Bit it does not mean that DL is actually using someone else's hands to murder anyone. He just opposed the action of practicing DS, but he did not say that everyone should not practice and those who practice should die.
Hence, I think we should not be putting words into HH DL's mouth to defame him like that.
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True, that with what the Dalai Lama said did not make much impact on his followers. Bit it does not mean that DL is actually using someone else's hands to murder anyone. He just opposed the action of practicing DS, but he did not say that everyone should not practice and those who practice should die.
Hence, I think we should not be putting words into HH DL's mouth to defame him like that.
I think you have misunderstood what I wrote. What I meant was that the Dalai Lama should have taken more steps to protect Trijang Rinpoche and his right to practice Dorje Shugden, rather than just a fleeting statement and approval for his practice in Dorje Shugden. Then, I would say that his approval for Trijang Rinpoche is genuine. It is true that the Dalai Lama has never said that those who practice Dorje Shugden would die, but nevertheless Trijang Rinpoche got them just for practicing Dorje Shugden. Else, it is just a symbolic gesture meant to just please someone.
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I understood what you meant, is just that I feel that there are so many people that threaten Trijang Rinpoche due to his potential influential powers that the followers of Dalai Lama are not welling to accept.
Hence, the followers would be acting on their own to stop DS practitioners from practicing what they are practicing. Even going to the extreme of threatening to kill DS practitioners.
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I agreed with Rinchen that it is most probably the followers of HHDL that take it literally Dorje Shugden is a spirit and trying to stop whoever is practicing it even to the extend to kill or harm anyone even to the extend of harming high lama such HH Trijang Rinpoche. For them, they feel that they are protecting others from being harm for not spreading Dorje Shugden. I would think that it is due to they are lack of knowledge. Therefore, our role of spreading the truth of who is Dorje Shugden is very important to educate them. Dorjeshugden.com and forum has been doing a great job and we need to help them to promote their articles so that more will understand who Dorje Shugden is and accept him and get his blessings.
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I understood what you meant, is just that I feel that there are so many people that threaten Trijang Rinpoche due to his potential influential powers that the followers of Dalai Lama are not welling to accept.
Hence, the followers would be acting on their own to stop DS practitioners from practicing what they are practicing. Even going to the extreme of threatening to kill DS practitioners.
no matter what, that is still ridiculous on many levels as it would mean getting rid of the Dalai Lama's Guru, the person who is most important to the Dalai Lama, for purely political reasons. The Dalai Lama's influence is already very well established, so why is there a need to do this sort of thing some more? i find it illogical so to speak, and its done merely out of fanatical devotion. This shows that little has changed since the 5th Dalai Lama's time, where Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was murdered because he overshadowed the Dalai Lama.
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no matter what, that is still ridiculous on many levels as it would mean getting rid of the Dalai Lama's Guru, the person who is most important to the Dalai Lama, for purely political reasons. The Dalai Lama's influence is already very well established, so why is there a need to do this sort of thing some more? i find it illogical so to speak, and its done merely out of fanatical devotion. This shows that little has changed since the 5th Dalai Lama's time, where Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was murdered because he overshadowed the Dalai Lama.
Yes, indeed very little has changed in these degenerated times. Even if you would to read a dharma book about how people 200 years ago acted and behaved, when you compared to the people now, you will see no difference. The only difference that you will notice is how has the technology has brought all dharmic information to us all over the world easily.
But our actions are still the same. We are not willing to change because we choose the easier way out. And it is to enjoy ourselves, convincing that the karmic impacts will not be huge no matter what we do. Reason being that we "practice" dharma, and we think that our negative karma are all cleared by the little things that we have done for dharma.
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Yes, indeed very little has changed in these degenerated times. Even if you would to read a dharma book about how people 200 years ago acted and behaved, when you compared to the people now, you will see no difference. The only difference that you will notice is how has the technology has brought all dharmic information to us all over the world easily.
But our actions are still the same. We are not willing to change because we choose the easier way out. And it is to enjoy ourselves, convincing that the karmic impacts will not be huge no matter what we do. Reason being that we "practice" dharma, and we think that our negative karma are all cleared by the little things that we have done for dharma.
I would say that the main reason why is because CTA has failed again and again to learn from their own mistakes on this. They just keep repeating the same mistakes simply because they fail to learn from history. There is no excuse for their actions or justifications. Countries that learn from history can move on and progress, such as China for example. Or Europe, or the US. But sadly CTA is still too obsessed with trying to 'preserve' their heritage and culture, but in the completely wrong way. Lets hope they wake up from this.
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I would say that the main reason why is because CTA has failed again and again to learn from their own mistakes on this. They just keep repeating the same mistakes simply because they fail to learn from history. There is no excuse for their actions or justifications. Countries that learn from history can move on and progress, such as China for example. Or Europe, or the US. But sadly CTA is still too obsessed with trying to 'preserve' their heritage and culture, but in the completely wrong way. Lets hope they wake up from this.
Why would it be CTA's fault when the progress of each individual is up to that person themselves? Correct, if Tibet and the cause to independence for Tibet is not progressing is CTA's fault. But hoe people judge Dorje Shugden has nothing to do with CTA nor the Dalai Lama. It is just a way of how they themselves view it. That is why, there are some people that support Dorje Shugden and practice it, but there are some that are against it, even going to extreme levels to show their displease of Shugden practitioners.
All these actions are all based on the thought and mindset of that particular party. We cannot just simply point fingers in any way that we like blaming everyone in the way as long as we think that they are not right. We should be analyzing the situation and judging it based on that and not our prejudice to a party.
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I would say that the main reason why is because CTA has failed again and again to learn from their own mistakes on this. They just keep repeating the same mistakes simply because they fail to learn from history. There is no excuse for their actions or justifications. Countries that learn from history can move on and progress, such as China for example. Or Europe, or the US. But sadly CTA is still too obsessed with trying to 'preserve' their heritage and culture, but in the completely wrong way. Lets hope they wake up from this.
Why would it be CTA's fault when the progress of each individual is up to that person themselves? Correct, if Tibet and the cause to independence for Tibet is not progressing is CTA's fault. But hoe people judge Dorje Shugden has nothing to do with CTA nor the Dalai Lama. It is just a way of how they themselves view it. That is why, there are some people that support Dorje Shugden and practice it, but there are some that are against it, even going to extreme levels to show their displease of Shugden practitioners.
All these actions are all based on the thought and mindset of that particular party. We cannot just simply point fingers in any way that we like blaming everyone in the way as long as we think that they are not right. We should be analyzing the situation and judging it based on that and not our prejudice to a party.
Because no matter how strong an individual is, they are only just one person. Also, they can be easily influenced and suppressed by a group of people. This is called the herd mentality. We have seen how Lobsang Sanggay was pressured to bow in to the whims of the other members of the CTA. If one person is doing all the work while the others is not only not supporting this person, but are doing things to neutralize the work of this person, it would be pretty clear that this person would be left with no choice but to leave.
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I think that one individual can make all the difference. After all, the greatest movements of change in history, whether positive or negative, came about because of one individual - like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Hitler, Mao Tze Tung etc. Of course it is not easy to go against the crowd but it is possible. It just depends on your tenacity and perseverance. Even in Dorje Shugden lineage, look at the DS lamas - they have basically been on their own - look at Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and how the New Kadampa Tradition has grown despite being ostracised in the Tibetan Buddhist world. How did that happen? Through faith in Dorje Shugden and never giving up. So yes, i do believe that we can make a difference if we stand firm and do our bit.
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Totally agree with Wisdom Being. You have said all my thoughts out.
No matter how we are faced with a situation, it is because of our faith and perseverance that would allow us to succeed. It is just like how a company is started. The company would start with one party, influencing others, bringing in the funds and talent to make the change. It is because of that first person that is why a business would be successful. And it also take time for the business to grow, it does not happen within a day.
Hence, it is the same in Lobsang Sanggay's case. He would take time to influence and change the way that CTA works from within, by slowly getting supporters and persevering to his beliefs.
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To mu understanding Dorje Shugden is an Enlightened Being. How else he has the clairvoyance to help the Dalai Lama to escape and protect him throughout. If DS is a spirit why worship DS in the first place as an Enlightened Being and then say he is a spirit. There are so many practitioners out there practicing DS meaning to say that all of them are wrong? Please get the facts correct before saying that DS is a spirit.
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There's no way Lord Dorje Shugden is a spirit, not even close. If Dorje Shugden were to be a spirit like what those anti Shugdeners would say, how do you explain the reincarnations of some of the most well known Lamas? Since people call this an impure practise, how are they going to explain that? No one is asking everyone to do Dorje Shugden's practise, it's your choice, so please respect other peoples' religion because we all want the same thing, religion freedom and respect.
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Is Dorje Shugden a spirit? Definitely not! Why? Because for the past 400 years, there are a lots of great Lamas like Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche have been practicing Dorje Shugden. Not just one lifetime but they came back as reincarnation. How is it possible for these Highly Attained Lamas to be fooled by Dorje Shugden for more than 400 years? Dorje Shugden is a great protector that has protected me and family countless of times. If Dorje Shugden is a spirit then why would he help and save so many people? And it also said that when everybody in Tibet suspected that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, they tried to demolish him through fire puja, but in the end Setrap came to rescue Dorje Shugden and brought him to Tushita (the heaven of Tsongkhapa). High Attained Lamas sometimes might be wrong but what Setrap who is an enlightened being?