Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso on demonstrations - spring 2008

[vajralight]

Spring 2008

Geshe-la:
"The spiritual life of Shugden practitioners throughout the world is in danger to be destroyed. We cannot solve this problem by the practice of patience. There is great danger to destroy millions of people’s spiritual life. Our practice of patience cannot solve. We need to do something. This is why for Dharma, the demonstration is the method to solve outer problem. Patience is the method to solve inner problem. We should not mix outer and inner problems. You should distinguish the method to solve outer and inner problems. People need to do both - outer activity as normal to solve outer problem and inner problem we solve with patience. So this is my answer. Otherwise it is possible to misunderstand. Maybe you think why does Geshe-la not practice patience? Why encourage demonstrations?

I encourage because I want to save the pure practice of Je Tsongkhapa’s doctrine. I want to help Shugden practitioners throughout the world and give millions religious freedom. So I need help from you. But this is my activity, not NKT activity. No. Any important decision must come through the board of directors through meeting. In this issue – the demonstrations – the board of directors never met or asked anyone to do this job. This is only my idea. Even I can do as I wish with no fear, no doubt. This is my decision because the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa is so important in this world. So my personal decision is my choice. It is free society. But this is not a decision of the organization. I did not discuss it with the board. But I seek help from my students.

We are under the mantle of the Shugden society. This is organized throughout the world. Everyone understands the importance of working together. Last time I had this idea. Others had many doubts. Now they say “We did not understand. We now regret. Now we follow you.” We have no leader, no organization. We are empty. But our heart is a mountain, never broken."

Vajra

[Vajraprotector]

I do agree with Geshe-la that actions has to be taken when Shugen practice is endangered (& banned!).  Even His Holiness Dalai Lama has mentioned about taking action!

One of the forty-six secondary vows of a bodhisattva refers to a situation in which somebody is doing something very harmful and you have to use forceful methods or whatever else is necessary to stop that person’s actions immediately—if you don’t, you have transgressed that commitment. It might appear that this bodhisattva vow and the fifth stanza of The Eight Verses of Thought Transformation, which says that one must accept defeat and give the victory to the other, are contradictory but they are not. The bodhisattva precept deals with a situation in which one’s prime concern is the welfare of others: if somebody is doing something extremely harmful and dangerous it is wrong not to take strong measures to stop it if necessary.

Q. It may sometimes be necessary to take strong action when we see something wrong, but whose judgment do we trust for such decisions? Can we rely on our own perception of the world?
His Holiness: That’s complicated. When you consider taking the loss upon yourself you have to see whether giving the victory to the others is going to benefit them ultimately or only temporarily. You also have to consider the effect that taking the loss upon yourself will have on your power or ability to help others in the future. It is also possible that by doing something that is harmful to others now you create a great deal of merit that will enable you to do things vastly beneficial for others in the long run; this is another factor you have to take into account.

As it says in the Bodhicaryavatara, you have to examine, both superficially and deeply, whether the benefits of doing a prohibited action outweigh the shortcomings. At times when it is difficult to tell, you should check your motivation. In the Shiksa-Samuccaya, Shantideva says that the benefits of an action done with bodhicitta outweigh the negativities of doing it without such motivation. Although it is extremely important, it can sometimes be very difficult to see the dividing line between what to do and what not to do, therefore you should study the texts that explain about such things. In lower texts it will say that certain actions are prohibited while higher ones tell you that those same actions are allowed. The more you know about all of this the easier it will be to decide what to do in any situation.
(from His Holiness the Dalai Lama's teaching in Dharamsala, 7 October 1981, Published in 2005 in the LYWA publication Teachings From Tibet.)

I applaud taking action, but I personally feel the way it was conducted was not very good and affected many people's mind about Buddhism - Sangha on the street screaming "Dalai Lama STOP LYING!" (Dalai Lama the spiritual head of your sect of Buddhism LIES? I thought LYING is against the refuge vow. Then I don't want to be a Buddhist !)

[crazycloud]

I applaud taking action, but I personally feel the way it was conducted was not very good and affected many people's mind about Buddhism - Sangha on the street screaming "Dalai Lama STOP LYING!" (Dalai Lama the spiritual head of your sect of Buddhism LIES? I thought LYING is against the refuge vow. Then I don't want to be a Buddhist !)

it IS disgraceful for a Buddhist to lie so egregiously. The Dalai Lama should stop lying, this will help more people to want to become Buddhist. The solution is not pretending it is not happening, but helping the Dalai Lama to see the error in his course.

This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader.

[WisdomBeing]

Re the protests - i do agree with Vajraprotector's point that the protests were good but the way they were conducted was not, because by criticising the Dalai Lama, it may put people off Buddhism.

On the other hand, because I believe in the 'bigger picture' theory, the protests WERE/ARE necessary in order to bring the world's attention to the issue and hence who Dorje Shugden is. Without the protests, there would not have been the coverage on the world's media, like Newsweek and Time magazines. I do think that the Dalai Lama knows that his stance is contradictory, which is why he will not hold a public debate with Shugdenpas.

Re protesting the Dalai Lama as a politician and not a spiritual leader, i think that in the world at large, the Dalai Lama is viewed as a spiritual man rather than a politician - this may be wrong but that's the way it is. So even though the protestors say that they are protesting against the politician.. on the outside it does look like monks are protesting against their spiritual head (even though that premise is wrong).

This is pretty much an impasse though i think that on the whole the protests were a necessary evil.

[Helena]

IF every group of students were devotedly following their Guru's advice and doing what their Guru told them to do, then are they wrong?

So, if GKG told his students to protest and the students go along with that, are they not just following their Guru's advice and being faithful to their Guru Devotion?

Similarly, those who take the Dalai Lama as their Guru and as Chenrezig - then when they follow HHTDL's instructions, are they also just following upon their Guru Devotion and being good students?

I believe this is the same question posed in another thread by a forum member as well. I think it was a Ms. Jessica in the thread of "Even Handed Information".

This has been on my mind since I read this thread. Frankly, it is quite difficult to answer.

At this point it does seem to be that everything is a necessity in order to propel DS into the world's centerstage. Again, I said, center stage and not just any stage.

If high Lamas have to employ necessary evils at their own ends to achieve this - then it is something only they would know best. Which is why I kept saying that both sides are working together, although it appears as they are fighting against each other.

Without GKG protesting, there would be noise or disruptions in the mainstream media. So, GKG is playing his role well.

Without HHTDL doing what he did, then there is nothing to protest about in the first place. Then DS would remain in the background, cloistered by those who are in the know - so-to-speak.

Similarly, without China's invasion of Tibet, Buddhadharma cannot go out into the world and land into our very lives and hearts. We may never even have heard of the name: Lama Tsongkhapa - let alone, DS.

Without HHTDL's invasion of DS practitioners, then DS cannot be the most famous Dharmapala in the world. Now, where there is HHTDL, there is DS. Even my father has heard of DS of late because of all the NEWS - fueled from both sides.

Without any fuel from any one side, there can be only silence and nothing will arise.

So, in terms of necessary evil - yes, it is necessary - but whether is it really evil, that remains to be seen.

I sincerely respect those who follow their Guru's instructions and requests for help. As students, it is our solemn duty to come into the aid of our Guru without a doubt. So, in this respect, I do not believe anyone is wrong in upholding their Guru Devotion.

I guess, with the many different Gurus who chose different methods in managing this issue - I believe they have their own reasons and they need to do what they need to do - be it out of respect, out of peace for the greater whole whom they need to care for, etc. There are various reasons - some we may know. Some we may not know at all. So, I really think we cannot judge.

One thing is for sure, everyone is doing something. Some choose very blatant acts and some may not. Nonetheless, every act counts. Every act matters now.

Hence, I rather not judge. No one knows what goes on behind the scenes and how much someone is actually contributing. This is something I have come to learn over the years.

In any case, let us not create further divide within the small community of DS that we are.

This is one act that is most un-necessary.

[Helena]

Sorry, my bad - Correction - Jessica posed a similar question in the thread of "Hate Others Forever" and not "Even Handed Information".

I am really too exhausted and still fighting the flu...so, please excuse my mis-quoting.

[Dharmapal]

This point by Crazy Cloud hits the nail entirely on the head:

"This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader."

The Dalai Lama has to be held accountable for his political actions. None of the persecution and destruction of a religious tradition would be happening without him -- the TGIE is only following his orders. He is acting like a political dictator. He is in fact a political dictator as no one is allowed to question him or oppose him on this policy. He is misusing his speech and his government to force monks to sign their names or leave their monasteries and to destroy the spiritual lives of thousands upon thousands of people. etc.

I only care that he lifts the ban and stops bad-mouthing and destroying our tradition; and if people want to keep faith in him as a spiritual teacher, that is their decision and fine by me. But at the same time, don't you think that new, unsuspecting Westerners who buy his books and think he is the Pope of Buddhism have a right to know what he has been doing behind the scenes in his role as political dictator? Wouldn't it be better they knew this now rather than later?

[thaimonk]

We heard your views of the animosity against Dalai Lama. Do you have any other things to say about any other subjects please??

Please start another subject.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

We heard your views of the animosity against Dalai Lama. Do you have any other things to say about any other subjects please??

Please start another subject.

You did hear him? Sadly, I did not. What was it that you heard?

And what subject should now be started? Oh, you mean a subject called: "we dunno, but HHDL and DS are great, and I sort'a feel like when reading these posts, that it, whatever it is, is great, and I somehow now feel wonderful!" or something like that? For you see, we, yes we, the DS-practitioners, have had wonderful debates about everything, here. But somehow there is no point in talking about these "other" things anymore, or even about the core things, as everything is just basically ignored. Unless it is feeled, wonderfulitized, and so forthed hugged into a soft oblivion.

(You did a great job, I'll admit.)

[Vajraprotector]

This point by Crazy Cloud hits the nail entirely on the head:

"This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader."

The Dalai Lama has to be held accountable for his political actions. None of the persecution and destruction of a religious tradition would be happening without him -- the TGIE is only following his orders. He is acting like a political dictator. He is in fact a political dictator as no one is allowed to question him or oppose him on this policy. He is misusing his speech and his government to force monks to sign their names or leave their monasteries and to destroy the spiritual lives of thousands upon thousands of people. etc.

I only care that he lifts the ban and stops bad-mouthing and destroying our tradition; and if people want to keep faith in him as a spiritual teacher, that is their decision and fine by me. But at the same time, don't you think that new, unsuspecting Westerners who buy his books and think he is the Pope of Buddhism have a right to know what he has been doing behind the scenes in his role as political dictator? Wouldn't it be better they knew this now rather than later?

My point of view is this- our refuge vow forbid us to lie. So WHY is Dalai Lama lying? There must be a reason. I am sure as a spiritual teacher to many, he will uphold his practice. I think simple thing like keeping refuge vow is too basic for his level (he has Bodhisattva Vows , Tantric vows and monk vows which are more complicated to keep).

In the Bodhisattva Vows,

Root vow (3) Not listening to others' apologies or striking others

Secondary vows
- Not answering those who ask us questions
- Not upholding moral training for the sake of others' faith
- Not committing a destructive action when love and compassion call for it
So I think Dalai Lama (for who he is), he will not break these vows just for political reasons to keep his status (which is failing, together with TGIE), don't you think so? After all, his bigger role as the spiritual leader & icon of Tibetan Buddhism is far more superior than just being the political head of Tibet.

And relating to the secondary vow of " not committing a destructive action when love and compassion call for it" , certain extreme situations arise in which the welfare of others is seriously jeopardized and there is no alternative left to prevent a tragedy other than committing one of the seven destructive physical or verbal actions. These seven are taking a life, taking what has not been given to us, indulging in inappropriate sexual behavior, lying, speaking divisively, using harsh and cruel language, or chattering meaninglessly.

If we commit such an action without any disturbing emotion at the time, such as anger, desire, or naivety about cause and effect, but are motivated only by the wish to prevent others' suffering - being totally willing to accept on ourselves whatever negative consequences may come, even hellish pain - we do not damage our far-reaching ethical self-discipline. On the opposite, we build up a tremendous amount of positive force that speeds us on our spiritual paths, but this is only
only if we have taken and keep purely the bodhisattva vows and not use this as an excuse to commit non-virtuous actions.

So I think Dalai Lama knows better?

[crazycloud]

We heard your views of the animosity against Dalai Lama. Do you have any other things to say about any other subjects please??

Please start another subject.

We have a right to express our views, as you do. There is no hate here, be careful before you become the little boy who cried wolf.....

So I think Dalai Lama knows better?

you would think he would, but the evidence is to the contrary, I'm afraid.....

[beggar]

We have a right to express our views, as you do.

Sure do. But please remember everyone, please to remain respectful to each other all the time. Express your views, sure, but watch how you're talking and behaving on here, make this a safe place with harmonious grounds for learning. We all want to learn! and share! and defend our great protector!

Make this a wonderful place for many more people to come and be benefitted by the practices, teachings and learning.

PS please have a read of the forum rules recently posted up. It is a helpful guide for us to post the best we can and to create a great online space.

Thank you.

yours, beggar

[thaimonk]

Everyone has the right to express their views here. But are there other views besides the negative writings on the Dalai Lama? Can we talk about other subjects besides our views the Dalai Lama is wrong? Surely there are many other subjects we can talk about besides the same dalai lama rhetoric.

If we cannot, then start another website to counter the Dalai lama, and you can write non-stop and to your heart's content against the Dalai lama. Why don't people start that?

[crazycloud]

But are there other views besides the negative writings on the Dalai Lama? Can we talk about other subjects besides our views the Dalai Lama is wrong? Surely there are many other subjects we can talk about besides the same dalai lama rhetoric.

yes, peruse the threads here and you will find many interesting topics that have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama.

If we cannot, then start another website to counter the Dalai lama, and you can write non-stop and to your heart's content against the Dalai lama. Why don't people start that?
 

There are many website out there that show the Dalai Lama.s true nature. Several have been started by contributors to the forum.

[harrynephew]

But are there other views besides the negative writings on the Dalai Lama? Can we talk about other subjects besides our views the Dalai Lama is wrong? Surely there are many other subjects we can talk about besides the same dalai lama rhetoric.

yes, peruse the threads here and you will find many interesting topics that have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama.

If we cannot, then start another website to counter the Dalai lama, and you can write non-stop and to your heart's content against the Dalai lama. Why don't people start that?
 

There are many website out there that show the Dalai Lama.s true nature. Several have been started by contributors to the forum.

Crazy Cloud,

Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.

Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?

H1N1