Shugden Arising As A Yidam

[lightning]

Dear Lineageholder,

Re what you said about this site just focusing on Dorje Shugden,  i do expect it to be so because the entire site IS about Dorje Shugden. It's not called General Dharma.com or Buddhism.com but Dorjeshugden.com.

I must say that i did not think that DS was the main event as you say - i had thought of DS as a Protector but now that I'm thinking of the possibility of DS being a Yidam, my perspective has changed. The possibilities are much wider now.

Re seeing DS as more important than Shakyamuni - i think that practitioners see their yidam as more important than Shakyamuni, so it's not about seeing who is more important than Shakyamuni per se. Also since DS is enlightened and so is Shakyamuni, I don't think Shakyamuni will mind that we focus on DS.

Reading the post below also adds confidence to what I am feeling.

Dear Wisdom being,

It is dependent on the empowerment yidam you have received that matters. If you received a Manjushri empowerment only, you have to place more emphasis in Manjushri than the rest of the Buddhist Deities, because practising your own Yidam causes you to reach enlightenment faster.

Manjushri had long ago reached enlightenment, but He manifest as a tenth ground Bodhisattva "sub-actor" to co-ordinate and support the "main actor" Shakyamuni Buddha in our times. Both of them are equally enlightened but their roles are different here.

If you received a Heruka empowerment and Mahakala empowerment, more emphasis should be focus on Heruka than Mahakala. In terms of priority, Highest Yoga Yidam should come first, then comes the Yoga Tantra, followed by Perfomance Tantra, then lastly Action Tantra etc.It is not the protector placed above Highest Yoga Tantra Yidams. Without our Gurus, we do not have our empowerment yidams, without yidams, we would not have protectors.

Although Guru, Yidam and Protector are one entity, we must be able to distinguish Guru as Guru, Yidam as Yidam and Protector as Protector. Everything has their own place & order and we should not mess up and forget about our Dharma practice priorties, if not the outcome will be undesirable. This is a gentle reminder that we should not overlook or overkill main homework when practising Protectors.

By tradition, one must have Yamantaka empowerment or other Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment first, before he/she can take up Dorje Shugden as Yidam.

Yes this is a Dorje Shugden website, but I feel that this is a website where Dorje Shugden practioners and those others that are opposed by the "mainstream" to gather and united together as one strong community to clear the misconceptions about the rest of us. It is here where our voices can be heard and to display the good and enlightened qualities passed down by Je Tsong Kha Pa and Atisha's tradition.

Having anything to do with Dorje Shugden in any way, shape or form is the pure dharma.

His body shows the complete path of Lam Rim.

His mind is all omniscient.

He has achieved full oneness with Guyasamaja.

Remembering,seeing, contemplating on Dorje Shugden would earn one great waves of merit beyond calculation.

His is Manjushri in peaceful, wrathful, controlling, mystical and protective forms. He is Manjushri as a Yidam, Bodhisattva, a Buddha, a Daka and also dharma protector.

Taking full refuge in Dorje Shugden is the same as taking refuge in the complete ultimate emptiness and great bliss inherent in all Buddhas.

Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.

tk

I agree but in fact this time Dorje Shugden manifest as protector not as a Highest Yoga Tantra Yidam.

[lightning]

Here is a copy of the Kangwa extracted from the Kangso. I made small marks in yellow where it begins and ends.



Here is the Shagpa:



If you would like the full-size image, email me at [email protected]

Thank you so much

[Lineageholder]

Dear Wisdom Being,

The Yidam is more important than Buddha Shakyamuni?  I've never heard that from anyone!  They are both the same nature, surely?  Only our Guru could be more important than Buddha Shakyamuni, but again, they are one and the same so this issue does not arise.  Since Buddha Shakyamuni is the principal object of refuge for all Buddhists (but the Yidam is not) how could the Yidam be more important?  Maybe I'm wrong.

Dear Lightning,

Although Guru, Yidam and Protector are one entity, we must be able to distinguish Guru as Guru, Yidam as Yidam and Protector as Protector. Everything has their own place & order and we should not mess up and forget about our Dharma practice priorties, if not the outcome will be undesirable. This is a gentle reminder that we should not overlook or overkill main homework when practising Protectors.

I couldn't agree more, well said.

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Wisdom Being,

The Yidam is more important than Buddha Shakyamuni?  I've never heard that from anyone!  They are both the same nature, surely?  Only our Guru could be more important than Buddha Shakyamuni, but again, they are one and the same so this issue does not arise.  Since Buddha Shakyamuni is the principal object of refuge for all Buddhists (but the Yidam is not) how could the Yidam be more important?  Maybe I'm wrong.

Dear LineageHolder,

My wrong choice of words - sorry - i meant it in the way that i thought that the focus of each individual practitioner would be on their personal Yidam rather than Shakyamuni. They are of the same nature, which is what i said too - they are all enlightened - so whoever we focus on is not as important.

Perhaps i misunderstood the role of the Yidam, though i do agree that the Guru should be above all, hence Guru first, then Yidam and Protector.

Re what Lightning said that each has their role, i do agree. However, i think that it is possible for the enlightened being to change their roles. I guess it would depend on what our individual Gurus advise and follow accordingly?

For example, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso doesn't follow the tulku system so his students don't either, which is fine. If another guru follows the tulku system, then his students should follow him. It's not that one is wrong or right, but whatever works for that Guru and his students.

[beggar]

Although Dorje Shugden embodies the good qualities of all enlightened beings, so does Buddha Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and all other Buddhas.  I agree with Lightning - there is too much emphasis on Dorje Shugden practice at the expense of actual lamrim, lojong and Mahamudra meditation which are the actual precious jewels that Dorje Shugden has sworn to protect.  As I said on another thread, too much enthusiasm for Dorje Shugden practice gets us the title 'Shugdenites' from those who oppose the practice because all they can see is that we are talking endlessly about Dorje Shugden and little else.  It seems that DS is the main event, which is not the case, is it?  I'd rather be known as a Kadampa, someone for whom lamrim is their main practice.

It must seem to them as if our main practice is the worship of Dorje Shugden and there is no doubt that we've contributed to that view through overemphasizing the importance of the practice.  The Dalai Lama has tried to make the argument that we regard DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni.  Well meaning but ultimately naive postings on this forum and the distribution of DS brochures doubtlessly support this view so we're not doing ourselves any favours in my view.

That's my twopenceworth with which none of you will agree, as usual.  I think I'm on a different planet to you guys 

Yes, it goes without saying that Lamrim, lojong, Mahamudra etc is what we should all be focusing on and working towards to achieve. This is definite.

I agree with Kate that we focus on Dorje Shugden here because, after all, it is a Dorje Shugden website and forum so we talk about the qualities of the practice and ask questions regarding his here. This is an appropriate place to do so.

Also, I think the average person out there in the world is NOT looking for lamrim, lojong and mahamudra. They don't even know what those words mean! The average person out there in the world is looking for a relationship, some money, a new house, a better job, some self-confidence, some method to get over their depression etc etc This can be seen across the board in almost every spiritual or new age practice - from tarot cards to divinations to therapies of all sorts.

Unfortunately, this is the situation today and this is how many, many, many people think. Just think for yourself: did you come into Dharma because you want to realise emptiness? Probably not. It was probably because you were looking for some answers to something on a much lower (although no less noble or sincere) level.

Ultimately, yes, I repeat again, we ARE all trying to get to a realisation of lojong, lamrim, etc and we wish very much for other people to get that. But, how do you teach the child the benefits of going to university when he hasn't even gone to 1st Grade yet? So you make 1st Grade classes fun - you have art classes and nap time and toys and hot chocolate. You dangle a carrot in front of people according to what they like, need or are comfortable with first, then you lead them on to the tougher stuff.

It is also wrong to just do Dorje Shugden's practice as a wishing tree - just pray, make some cheap offering and ask to win the lottery. OF COURSE, it is must bigger than that. We must also be careful not to fall into a trap of relying on him just like we rely on things like tarot cards or fortune tellers or quick fixes like that. Our motivation is to bring ourselves into the Lamrim and bring others to the Lamrim too. If the motivation is clear, then the method will fall into place- whether it is via a brochure or via a long and detailed dharma talk.

[WisdomBeing]

Yes, it goes without saying that Lamrim, lojong, Mahamudra etc is what we should all be focusing on and working towards to achieve. This is definite.

I agree with Kate that we focus on Dorje Shugden here because, after all, it is a Dorje Shugden website and forum so we talk about the qualities of the practice and ask questions regarding his here. This is an appropriate place to do so.

Also, I think the average person out there in the world is NOT looking for lamrim, lojong and mahamudra. They don't even know what those words mean! The average person out there in the world is looking for a relationship, some money, a new house, a better job, some self-confidence, some method to get over their depression etc etc This can be seen across the board in almost every spiritual or new age practice - from tarot cards to divinations to therapies of all sorts.

Unfortunately, this is the situation today and this is how many, many, many people think. Just think for yourself: did you come into Dharma because you want to realise emptiness? Probably not. It was probably because you were looking for some answers to something on a much lower (although no less noble or sincere) level.

Ultimately, yes, I repeat again, we ARE all trying to get to a realisation of lojong, lamrim, etc and we wish very much for other people to get that. But, how do you teach the child the benefits of going to university when he hasn't even gone to 1st Grade yet? So you make 1st Grade classes fun - you have art classes and nap time and toys and hot chocolate. You dangle a carrot in front of people according to what they like, need or are comfortable with first, then you lead them on to the tougher stuff.

It is also wrong to just do Dorje Shugden's practice as a wishing tree - just pray, make some cheap offering and ask to win the lottery. OF COURSE, it is must bigger than that. We must also be careful not to fall into a trap of relying on him just like we rely on things like tarot cards or fortune tellers or quick fixes like that. Our motivation is to bring ourselves into the Lamrim and bring others to the Lamrim too. If the motivation is clear, then the method will fall into place- whether it is via a brochure or via a long and detailed dharma talk.

Just to add to what beggar said, in the starter kit of this website, http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=4213, it states quite clearly who Dorje Shugden is:

Who is Dorje Shugden?

Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Being, an emanation of the Buddha of Wisdom, Manjushri, who arose as a Dharma Protector 350 years ago. He emanated as a Dharma Protector in order to best safeguard the precious teachings of the Second Buddha known as Lama Tsongkhapa, to benefit all sentient beings.

During these degenerate times and due to our karma, Dorje Shugden is the most helpful Dharma Protector for us, because he is swift, powerful and benevolent. He removes our obstacles, protects us and our loved ones, and provides conducive conditions for a successful life and spiritual practice. Above all, he grants us our virtuous and spiritual wishes quickly.

It doesn't say that Dorje Shugden is a cheap wish grantor but that "Above all, he grants us our virtuous and spiritual wishes quickly."

People who may have picked up one of the brochures will come onto the website and read this. I think that it's quite straightforward who DS is and what is his purpose, which IS spiritual.

[Helena]

Personally, I think that most average person, myself included, would not be seeking Enlightenment when we first enter into Dharma. To be exact, I just wanted to find a better way to deal with my list of personal issues. However, as time passed by, I find myself more focused and my desire to learn the Dharma began to shift as my mind shifted.

I think, for whatever reason a person may start practising the Dharma, with Protector Practice, all their obstacles will be removed in order for each person to learn the REAL DHARMA.

It may begin as a personal wish-fulfilling practice but it will change into a wish fulfilling practice to benefit others as well as self.

As Dorje Shugden's main purpose is ultimately to bring people to do the Dharma, HE will work to remove all obstacles to each person and bring about what he or she desires in order for real faith to arise in him or her. Once people's faith arises in Dorje Shugden, HE will undoubtedly move them into the TRUE DHARMA practice. And that will be Lam Rim.

To me, it matters not how each start, it is what they end up practising or realising that makes all the difference in their world.

As Dorje Shugden is swift, so will each person's path to Enlightenment - whether they know it or not, whether they want it or not in the beginning.

 

[Lineageholder]

Personally, I think that most average person, myself included, would not be seeking Enlightenment when we first enter into Dharma. To be exact, I just wanted to find a better way to deal with my list of personal issues. However, as time passed by, I find myself more focused and my desire to learn the Dharma began to shift as my mind shifted.

EXACTLY - people are not seeking enlightenment from the very beginning.  They just want to reduce their anger and get some peace in their life.  Let's be realistic and put ourself in the position of an ordinary person who has problems and is looking for answers that work.  What they need is lamrim teachings.  It would be very rare for people to develop faith in holy beings from the very beginning - heck, most people these days have aversion to religion!.  You need to give them something they can relate to and practice rather than encouraging them to rely on an 'invisible being in the sky' as it were.  This might work in asian cultures, but it certainly won't work in the West.

This is why it's best to encourage people to seek teachings on meditation practice rather than encouraging them to rely on Buddhas who they don't have any faith in anyway.  It's about skillful means which is why promoting your Dharma Centre activities is a much better idea than the Dorje Shugden brochure.

[thaimonk]

Dorje Shugden can manifest in any form he wants. No ONE IN THIS WORLD MAY DICTATE OTHERWISE.

As to what to promote. There are many ppl in the west and east. So just don't regionalize it. Westerners are not superior or their style better just because they 'like' meditation. Westerners have long exploited the earth and other races due to greed for many hundreds of years ago. Suddenly discovering Buddhism isn't going to change that.

You don't like the brochures, then you don't have to repeat yourself over and over.We heard you the forst 10 times. Thanks.  You don't have to do it or distribute.

You go and meditate and get enlightened and then we can talk. Unitl then I will pray to shugden for what I need and want on a short and long term basis. And you or any other Westerner or Easterner do not need to curtail my freedom of how I wish to interatct with Dorje Shugden. 

[Helena]

Dear Lineage Holder,

I believe skillful means actually means that we promote practices that is best suited for that individual at that particular time and according to his or her capacity/capabilities. It may not even be meditational practice at all! Every individual is unique and different.

Personally, I 'fell in love' with the Buddha first before doing any practices and did not initially find meditational practice relevant or helpful to me at the early stages of my spiritual journey. Having said that, I have friends who found meditation to be helpful to them at the start of their spiritual path. To each his or her own. It is not for us to say what is best or better, it is for the individual to decide. It is not for anyone to impose on others.

And thank goodness that the Buddha has created the 84, 000 different ways. We can all choose whichever way we are most happy and comfortable to start our practice. Most importantly, whatever we choose, we can continue to practice with consistency and commitment.

In my experience, nothing is impossible with the Enlightened Minds and Bodies. They are infinite and the possibilities are infinite.

What's truly limiting is our own self-absorbed mind which insists on believing that things should only exist or practised in a certain way. Here, I am not referring to any individual in particualr, of course. It is all inclusive of the masses. Myself, especially.

[honeydakini]

I believe skillful means actually means that we promote practices that is best suited for that individual at that particular time and according to his or her capacity/capabilities. It may not even be meditational practice at all! Every individual is unique and different.

Personally, I 'fell in love' with the Buddha first before doing any practices and did not initially find meditational practice relevant or helpful to me at the early stages of my spiritual journey. Having said that, I have friends who found meditation to be helpful to them at the start of their spiritual path. To each his or her own. It is not for us to say what is best or better, it is for the individual to decide. It is not for anyone to impose on others.

Helena, thanks for the sharing. I relate very much to what you said. When I joined, I actually didn't like anything of the traditional Dharma "stuff" (as i called it then). I didn't like altars, offerings, pujas; Dharma classes was a total chore for me. I liked the dharma centre because, quite simply, i liked the people there and I loved my Lama. That was enough. It was superficial, sure, but that's what got me in, in the first place and five years on, I am still here. Now i love my buddha images, my altar, making offerings, going to pujas and joining Dharma talks.

Different strokes for different folks. If it had been just another centre which threw me into the deep end with Lamrim teachings and lojong and words I couldn't even pronounce, I would have been out of there faster than you could say Tsongkhapa.

I imagine there are a lot more people out there like me who aren't looking for some deep realisation. In all probability, they're probably just looking for some answers to questions that we may now judge as being trivial, superficial, not "real dharma." So be really skilful, like Helena says, and give em what they need. Our lamas come down to our level all the time and give us advice and guidance on some of the most trivial things. They aren't just teaching us about Emptiness all the time! They teach us in all aspects of our lives, even the really mundane stuff. So why is it okay for us to receive that kind of attention, love and methods from our teachers but not okay if other people need other things and other methods?

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Lineage Holder,

This website does introduce Dharma to people in the 'Dharma Reads' section (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=12), where there's my favourite Eight Verses of Training the Mind (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1292), so it's not 'just' about Dorje Shugden.

I find this discussion quite interesting in that we can be so selective - for example, I like the idea of the brochures, but i do have a preference over which brochure design I like better. I realise that it is just a reflection of my own mind which is so immersed in duality. If i can develop equanimity to all methods, then all methods would be equally appealing. All brochures would be equally nice. All methods of promotion would be the same and all images of Dorje Shugden would be equally lovely to me. But they are not - so I have to contemplate what I can do about it.

I guess I would practice being more mindful and aware so i can catch myself when I am being selective. This is the only way to practice being less selective and apply what dharma I learn with immediate effect. Life is really a great journey with the guidance of the compassionate Buddhas.

[Helena]

Dear WB,

You said it - it IS ALL A REFLECTION of our minds and our minds' preferences.

What would appeal to you may not appeal to me and vice versa.

Why does the Lama has come down to our level to teach us? Because we will never rise to the Lama's level to be able to remotely comprehend the vastness of his teachings and most of all, the depth. Hence, the Lama teaches us according to the aspects of our every day lives so that we can best relate. And from where we can relate, we will beging to understand more and incorporate more Dharma into our lives.

I would think that teachings on Emptiness, Meditation, Lam Rim, Lojong or even the practice of tonglen would not be easy to grasp in the very beginning for people like me who are so addicted to the secular life and all things samsara.

Personally, I am very grateful that there are so many different ways to Enlightenment and to learn the Dharma because it means every single person has a fair chance. And that chance is what each make of it - according to their level and their ability.

In this way, no one would be left behind in samsara.

That is the most powerful and liberating thought of all - we all have the equal chance to break free.

 

[WisdomBeing]

Why does the Lama has come down to our level to teach us? Because we will never rise to the Lama's level to be able to remotely comprehend the vastness of his teachings and most of all, the depth. Hence, the Lama teaches us according to the aspects of our every day lives so that we can best relate. And from where we can relate, we will beging to understand more and incorporate more Dharma into our lives.

Sometimes I always wonder what it's like for these Bodhisattva Lamas. For them to leave their wonderful monasteries and come to Dharmically alien places like England and Europe, not receiving the support from their Sangha family, not having the respect accorded to them etc. and having to deal with many deluded students. I know they are Bodhisattvas and hence they suffer gladly for others, but it still doesn't mean that we should treat them badly.

Many of us take the Lamas for granted and think that they are just like us (even my feeling sorry for how they are treated by some students may be wrong view). They give us the most precious gift of the Dharma and often what some of the students do is just criticise them or they don't listen to their Lama's instructions. Anyway, I think it's something we should contemplate and be grateful to all Lamas for.

[DharmaDefender]

Sometimes I always wonder what it's like for these Bodhisattva Lamas. For them to leave their wonderful monasteries and come to Dharmically alien places like England and Europe, not receiving the support from their Sangha family, not having the respect accorded to them etc. and having to deal with many deluded students. I know they are Bodhisattvas and hence they suffer gladly for others, but it still doesn't mean that we should treat them badly.

This probably sounds like a daft question, but do bodhisattvas suffer? After all, isn't suffering a perception of the mind? And aren't Bodhisattvas in full control of their minds? To say they suffer would imply they are subject to the same delusions as us, wouldn't it?